I've GOT to get to Wal-Mart!

AV1611VET said:

Look at this copy of Scientific American, folks!

...snip...

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Got it today, enjoyable read.
(That and the new ocean forming )

Garyzenuf said:

Actually, I've heard people say the Flood was impossible, then turn around and condem God for drowning all those poor people. Tryin' to get it both ways I guess.

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This may come as a shock but the argument goes more along the lines of "The Flood is highly unlikely from a scientific stand point" AND "in addition from a theological standpoint, many Christians since the time of Marcion in the 2nd century AD have had difficulty aligning the 'God of Undying Mercy and Love' of the New Testament with the much more wrathful God of the Old"

They're two independent arguments. As a geologist and an atheist I think the Noachian Flood is a myth based on a lack of evidence. As a former Christian I had difficulty understanding what kind of unchanging omnipotent being could change so dramatically from the being who slew not only all humanity except 8 people and with whose later consent allowed the near-genocidal slaughter of entire towns by his 'chosen people' with that being who so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son.

Think of it this way: imagine you were debating with someone who thought Peter Pan was an actual story. You could say "children cannot fly" and you could say it is irrational for Peter to want to stay a child forever since maturation and growth are crucial parts of the human experience and make life richer.

One is a critique on "factual" grounds, the other a critique of some underlying thematic presentation.

AV1611VET said:

It's clear to me that your friends either don't know your feelings about the Bible and slavery, or they agree with you, or you won't listen to them when they tell you otherwise.

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Actually the philosophy prof has said many of the same ridiculous things I've heard from Christians on this board "slavery in those days was 'different', not like it was in the 19th century U.S." etc.

Obviously we can disagree. We do.

You keep telling me you have friends who are Christians and creationists, but evidently you approach their beliefs with the same "respect" you approach mine.

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Back the truck up there buddy: YOU don't earn much respect because I don't see in your posts anything like introspection or deeper thought.

No offense but your posts read like the scrawl of a second grader who is so impressed that he can make both capital and lowercase letters and assumes that's all there is to sounding "smart". My Christian friends at least challenge me by coming to the table prepared to debate on an intellectual level.

To be very pointed about this: I've learned far more from my friend the philosophy prof in any given 15 seconds of religious conversation than I have in over a year of reading your posts. You bring very little of value. You have, on a couple of occasions, caught me off-guard with some unique hyper-legalistic read on a particular passage which has caused me to abandon that line of debate because you were technically (hyper-legalistically) correct. But don't for one second think your points are by and large anywhere near equal to some of these other folks.

They know who Leibniz was, who Pascal was, and an awful lot about the history not only of the Church but even your fundamentalist leaning thought.

At least you're consistent --- unless, Heaven forbid, they have a degree other than yours; or worse yet: don't have a degree.

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You are mistaking my point: I don't respect someone because of a degree but because of some intellectual skill and ability. You see my dad didn't even get to complete high school because of the great Depression, but he was so incredibly smart that it scared me at times. I respected him greatly.

But the fun thing about my dad was that he never stopped learning as he grew older. I could talk to him about stuff I was learning and it was an actual conversation.

I don't get that from you.

I notice too that when something in the Bible is evil, it's treated as if it absolutely happened. Even using technical terms to describe it; "genocide", "mass slaughter", "indentured servant", etc.

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See my earlier post about Marcion. I don't expect this to be in your knowledge set either owing to your alarming lack of interest in the history of Christianity, but there it is. You can google as you like.

To be honest, I don't think that the slaughter of the Amalekites happened as a direct command from God through his prophet. If it did happen it most assuredly was a fully human and fully evil action of "disproportionate 'total war'". No God need have given that command.

But let something good be brought up, and it's treated as if it absolutely didn't happen. Even using childish terms to describe it; "poofed", "magic", etc.

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As I said my understanding of the history of the Bible and what did or didn't happen is a bit more nuanced than that owing to my having read quite a bit about it.

I find it unlikely that the overwhelming power of the ancient Israelites decimating all around them by God's power was the case. IF the Israelites invated en masse rather than a more subtle displacement model of Caananite cities, it was probably recorded, as is all history, by the victors and then in the most glowing and mighty terms.

So you miss again. But that's because you see the world as a second grader. Black-white and you can't process the subtleties and distinctions that come from people who are capable of not only dealing with science but also theology, philosophy and history.

But someday maybe you'll step up to the plate and bring more than just bluster but actually impress me with something deeper.

I look forward to that day. But don't think for one sec you rate on the radar screen with the bigger brains I've met in religious discussion.

AV1611VET said:

Was I right?

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About What ?

AV1611VET said:

The article probably contains a testimony of someone who disagrees?

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Disagrees with what ?

AV1611VET said:

Are you fully convinced?

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Of What ?

AV1611VET said:

I wouldn't know ---

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I'd just like to know where Jesus' request that people come to him as children turned into "Come to Jesus as lobotomized mentally challenged children".

I see so much love of ignorance and naivete in some Christians that it borders on a love affair with abject vile ignorance. As if the more stupid one can be the more "pleasing to God".

It kind of aligns with the Conservative Political style here in the U.S. The worst thing you can call someone in a presidential election is an "elite" and that usually has nothing to do with money and everything to do with education. As if to get an education and be interested in thought makes you somehow less of a person.

American Anti-intellectualism is the most disgusting thing I see in my country. It sickens me how strong this anti-thought tendency is in the heartland (where I come from).

Ugh.

thaumaturgy said:

They're two independent arguments

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Yes, I realized that after I wrote it , I guess I was thinking more of people who argue how bad God is, yet don't believe he exists. How can something be bad that doesn't exist?

Garyzenuf said:

Actually, I've heard people say the Flood was impossible, then turn around and condem God for drowning all those poor people. Tryin' to get it both ways I guess.

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They do not condemn "god" for anything. They are saying that the fictional character portrayed should have been condemned if he existed.

Garyzenuf said:

Yes, I realized that after I wrote it , I guess I was thinking more of people who argue how bad God is, yet don't believe he exists. How can something be bad that doesn't exist?

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In the same way that Darth Vader, Emperor Ming, Hannibal Lector, etc. are bad.

Well, Martin Bojowald, whoever you are, when you know for sure, then I'll consider buying your propaganda.

I'm almost positive that your article will have "other points of view" in it --- embedded way down in the story somewhere.

You scientists get your stories straight --- then come and bore us with the details.

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AV1611VET said:

Was I right? The article probably contains a testimony of someone who disagrees? Are you fully convinced?

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Were you right about buying there propaganda ? I've no idea what you buy.

There wasn't a testimony in the article.
Am I fully convinced about your OP ? No, but I'd get a warning if I really typed what I think of your OP.

AV1611VET said:

Did you read the OP?

Let me guess --- "What OP?"

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You guessed wrong.

AV1611VET said:

And let me be equally plain that if your questions and remarks here are any indication of your conversations with your friends, then I'd say you guys need a class in Basic Theology.

No one, in my opinion, would say he has friends that know theology upside-down and inside-out on one hand, and wonder why the Bible supports slavery on the other.

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AV, once again, showing how little his opinion is worth.

And I invite you to invite any one (or all) of your friends here and let me talk to them.

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Suppose we want to keep our friends?

You remind me of a lot of people I know. I once won five Euchre tournaments in a row. If you play Euchre with me, you'll see me do stupid things like going alone without even looking at my cards first. Yet, everyone I talk to always knows someone who "lives for the game", but when I ask them to get together for a night of Euchre, guess what? I get, "I can't play very well," or, "I'm too busy", or "One of these nights..."

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Stick to Euchre, AV -- it's nice to have one talent.

AV1611VET said:

And let me be equally plain that if your questions and remarks here are any indication of your conversations with your friends, then I'd say you guys need a class in Basic Theology.

No one, in my opinion, would say he has friends that know theology upside-down and inside-out on one hand, and wonder why the Bible supports slavery on the other.

And I invite you to invite any one (or all) of your friends here and let me talk to them.

You remind me of a lot of people I know. I once won five Euchre tournaments in a row. If you play Euchre with me, you'll see me do stupid things like going alone without even looking at my cards first. Yet, everyone I talk to always knows someone who "lives for the game", but when I ask them to get together for a night of Euchre, guess what? I get, "I can't play very well," or, "I'm too busy", or "One of these nights..."

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I know things my friends have not a clue about. I can explain why it is impossible to have a search algorithm of O(1), but my friends don't even know what O(1) means. It is a question of if the information has been shared in the friendship or not.