Age of the Universe in Jewish Chronology

[Humble_Disciple]

Young earth creationists insist that the universe is less than 10,000 years old. While humanity may have begun, according to the Jewish commentaries, 5700 years ago, that doesn't mean the creation itself is only 5700 years old:

Rosh Hashanah commemorate the creation of the Neshama, the soul of human life. We start counting our 5700-plus years from the creation of the soul of Adam.

We have a clock that begins with Adam, and the six days are separate from this clock. The Bible has two clocks.

That might seem like a modern rationalization, if it were not for the fact that Talmudic commentaries 1500 years ago, brings this information. In the Midrash (Vayikra Rabba 29:1), an expansion of the Talmud, all the Sages agree that Rosh Hashanah commemorates the soul of Adam, and that the Six Days of Genesis are separate.

Why were the Six Days taken out of the calendar? Because time is described differently in those Six Days of Genesis...

The Talmud (Chagiga, ch. 2) tells us that from the opening sentence of the Bible, through the beginning of Chapter Two, the entire text is given in parable form, a poem with a text and a subtext.
Age of the Universe

The Talmud considers the story of creation to contain some of the deepest secrets of Kabbalah, which may be taught only to a single student at a time (Mishna Hagigah 2:1).

Further, the Sages clearly exclude the first days of Genesis – before Adam’s creation – from our regular calendar. The current count of 5775 years from Creation actually counts from the first day of Adam’s life (on Rosh Hashanah), not the first day of creation. The earlier days, before the world’s first Rosh Hashanah, are described as part of the “year of tohu (emptiness, chaos).” It is thus entirely possible that the “days” referred to in the story of Creation do not mean 24-hour days but epochs. (See this article which discusses this at length.)
Is the Torah Literal?: Ask the Rabbi Response

The medieval commentator Isaac of Akko dated the creation to be 15 billion years old, which corresponds to Big Bang cosmology:

Rabbi Isaac of Akko who lived between 1250-1350 C.E., wrote in Ozar HaHayyim, since 6 cycles existed before the creation of Adam, their chronology must be measured in "Divine years," not in "human years." How do we measure a "Divine year"? According to Psalm 90:4, there is a hint at the manner of measuring a Divine year: "For a thousand years in Your sight are as a day."

Therefore, according to Rabbi Isaac, the universe would be 42,000 divine years (i.e.. the six preceding cycles of 7,000 year each) x 365,250 human years (365.25 days in a year, with each divine day =1,000 "human years"). This equals 15,340,500,000. Modern science has concluded from calculations based on the expanding universe and cosmological observations, that the universe is 15 billion years old. Here we see the same calculation from a Torah source written over 700 years ago!
Bereishit 5767

Even if the universe were 15 billion years old, this wouldn’t automatically prove that evolution is true, which is a separate matter from the age of the universe.

Amazingly, the medieval commentator Nachmanides predicted Big Bang cosmology:

At the briefest instant following creation, all the matter of the universe was concentrated in a very small place, no larger than a grain of mustard. . . . From the initial concentration of this intangible substance in its minute location, the substance expanded, expanding the universe as it did so. As the expansion progressed, a change in the substance occurred.
Big Bang | Torah and Science

Since everything that begins to exist has a cause, God was the uncaused first cause of the Big Bang. According to Isaiah 42:5 and Job 9:8, God “stretched out” the heavens, which corresponds to the Big Bang.

Orthodox Jewish physicist Gerald Schroeder, who advances the position that Big Bang cosmology demonstrates the existence of God, is also critical of Darwinian evolution:

As Niles Eldredge, curator at the American Museum of Natural History, NYC, wrote in the New York Times, “The fossil record that we were told to find for the past 150 years (since Charles Darwin ) does not exist.” Darwin insisted that “natura non facit saltum,” that nature does not make jumps. In fact, the flow of life as recorded in the fossil record has many jumps in complexity. The great trade secret of paleontology is that the fossil record does not confirm Darwin. Never did I expect to read in the esteemed, peer reviewed journal, Science, the following: “Did Darwin get it all right?” And the sub-title was no, species appear with a most un-Darwinian rapidity. The problems of evolution begin with the origin of life (Richard Dawkins attributes the origin of life to “luck.”) and continue through the fossil record. Most precisely, the oldest rocks that can bear fossils already have fossils of microbes, some undergoing cell division. Nature “invented” DNA, RNA, cell structure, cell function with startling rapidity...

What caused the big bang is still being debated. Scientists suggest that within the laws of nature, the concept of a quantum fluctuation could create a universe. This of course assumes that: 1) the laws of nature (not physical nature, but totally abstract, non-physical laws of nature) pre-date the universe; 2) that these laws are eternal or timeless, outside of time; and 3) that within these eternal laws is the property of a quantum fluctuation that under extreme conditions can produce the physical universe from absolute nothing. Now all this sounds very much like the biblical definition of God. The Bible tells us that the eternal, non-physical God created the universe – perhaps working through the laws of nature. Recall that in the Exodus account, God used a force of nature, a strong east wind, to split the sea (Exodus 14:21). And that the only name for God in Genesis One is Elokim, God as made manifest in nature.
Top Five Scientific Myths Popularly Accepted as Fact | Gerald Schroeder

 

[coffee4u]

Young earth creationists insist that the universe is less than 10,000 years old.

Once again, not all YEC insist that the earth is less than 10,000 years.

Maybe this time you could absorb that fact?

For those that do, do you have a beef with them?

Seems like this is the only thing you post about, but then when you are asked questions you simply leave. I am still waiting to see your doctrine on old creation.

 

[Job 33:6]

Once again, not all YEC insist that the earth is less than 10,000 years.

Maybe this time you could absorb that fact?

For those that do, do you have a beef with them?

Seems like this is the only thing you post about, but then when you are asked questions you simply leave. I am still waiting to see your doctrine on old creation.

I've never heard of a YEC suggesting that the universe is older than 10,000 years.

Do you have a source for that?

 

[coffee4u]

I've never heard of a YEC suggesting that the universe is older than 10,000 years.

Do you have a source for that?

Before my hard drive died I had an article on why it could be 15-20 but I no longer have that or know where it came from. I tend to believe it is more 10-15 myself.
6-10K comes from James Ussher and it is certainly a popular figure but since I don't agree with the man's theology nor his putting an exact date on creation then I am also not going to be following his calculations. Not saying they weren't well thought out, but the Bible is not a calculator and God only tells us what we need to know.

To me the main point is not us knowing an exact figure or date but rather that God created the world as a paradise over 6 days some thousands of years ago. Man fell into sin and corrupted it, Christ came to redeem us and that one day God will remake the world back to a paradise once more.

6 K vs 50K doesn't make any difference in the creation vs evolution debate since the evolution model requires millions of years. The current world is not the world that God created, it is the groaning world and it too shall be redeemed.
18I consider that our present sufferings are not comparable to the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

 

[Job 33:6]

Before my hard drive died I had an article on why it could be 15-20 but I no longer have that or know where it came from. I tend to believe it is more 10-15 myself.

10-15? That's disappointing. Oh well. Thanks anyway.

 

[miamited]

@coffee4u

You wrote:

To me the main point is not us knowing an exact figure or date but rather that God created the world as a paradise over 6 days some thousands of years ago. Man fell into sin and corrupted it, Christ came to redeem us and that one day God will remake the world back to a paradise once more.

While I can agree that certainly the most important knowledge that we can glean from the Scriptures is that Jesus, God's Son, did come to redeem us from our enslavement to sin. God has given us a lot more testimony throughout the pages of Scripture, than just that one fact.

He has given us His testimony of a great flood; the parting of a great sea; the courage of a young man to stand before an army and slay a large man with a sling; the birth of a child from a virgin. I believe that when Jesus said to God's people in his day, "You believe in God, believe also in me." that he was speaking of them having believed in all the works of God up until that time. If we are to declare that God's word is true, then don't we have to believe that 'all' of God's word is true? Or, should we rather, after we make that claim, then begin to explain all the things in the word of God that aren't really to be believed so that they also can know the 'real' truth of God's word?

God's testimony of the creation is more than just the first few verses of Genesis 1. He also declares, in His law, that He made all things, then defines that as being everything in all of the heavens and all of the earth, in six days. Now, are we to really believe that on the sixth day, as He testifies, that He made Adam? That honestly doesn't leave a lot of billion s of years for the earth and the universe to have existed before man came on the scene. Then God's word gives us His testimony as to how long the earth existed between the births of a line of men that began when Adam was supposedly, according to God's word, 120 years old. So, I find that God's testimony, is that the universe couldn't possibly be more than a few thousand years old. Even if we believe those who would declare to us that the genealogy list from Adam to Noah isn't exhaustive, it would be hard to make the point that somewhere in that line of succession that several thousand or millions or billions of years was discounted.

Further, I believe that God has given us the testimony of the genealogical record for a purpose. I don't believe that purpose was just to tell us the 'line' of succession. If that were the case, then God would have just caused to be written that so-and-so begat so-and-so and then so-and-so begat the next father. There wouldn't be any reason to include the ages of each father for God to accomplish giving us just that knowledge. No, my faith, and I believe the conviction of the Holy Spirit within me, is that God specifically gave us each father's age for the very purpose of being able to stand against these teachings, that He knew would come, that the heavens and the earth were somehow some millions/billions of years old and came about through the coalescing of pre-existing matter floating around in space from some fantastical tale of a 'big bang'. God wants us to know the truth and a part of that truth is that we live in a created realm. A realm of existence of His creating miraculously out of nothing. That one day, He merely spoke, and all that our eyes see just pretty quickly came into existence and that it was perfect in supporting the purpose for which God created it all...man!

So, while I certainly agree that @Humble_Disciple will believe what he will believe, and please, know that there was a time in my life that I believed a much similar scenario, I feel compelled to defend the word of God and its truth on this issue of how important it may be that God's children do believe 'all' of God's testimony to us.

God bless
Ted

 

[coffee4u]

@coffee4u

You wrote:


While I can agree that certainly the most important knowledge that we can glean from the Scriptures is that Jesus, God's Son, did come to redeem us from our enslavement to sin. God has given us a lot more testimony throughout the pages of Scripture, than just that one fact.

He has given us His testimony of a great flood; the parting of a great sea; the courage of a young man to stand before an army and slay a large man with a sling; the birth of a child from a virgin. I believe that when Jesus said to God's people in his day, "You believe in God, believe also in me." that he was speaking of them having believed in all the works of God up until that time. If we are to declare that God's word is true, then don't we have to believe that 'all' of God's word is true? Or, should we rather, after we make that claim, then begin to explain all the things in the word of God that aren't really to be believed so that they also can know the 'real' truth of God's word?

God's testimony of the creation is more than just the first few verses of Genesis 1. He also declares, in His law, that He made all things, then defines that as being everything in all of the heavens and all of the earth, in six days. Now, are we to really believe that on the sixth day, as He testifies, that He made Adam? That honestly doesn't leave a lot of billion s of years for the earth and the universe to have existed before man came on the scene. Then God's word gives us His testimony as to how long the earth existed between the births of a line of men that began when Adam was supposedly, according to God's word, 120 years old. So, I find that God's testimony, is that the universe couldn't possibly be more than a few thousand years old. Even if we believe those who would declare to us that the genealogy list from Adam to Noah isn't exhaustive, it would be hard to make the point that somewhere in that line of succession that several thousand or millions or billions of years was discounted.

Further, I believe that God has given us the testimony of the genealogical record for a purpose. I don't believe that purpose was just to tell us the 'line' of succession. If that were the case, then God would have just caused to be written that so-and-so begat so-and-so and then so-and-so begat the next father. There wouldn't be any reason to include the ages of each father for God to accomplish giving us just that knowledge. No, my faith, and I believe the conviction of the Holy Spirit within me, is that God specifically gave us each father's age for the very purpose of being able to stand against these teachings, that He knew would come, that the heavens and the earth were somehow some millions/billions of years old and came about through the coalescing of pre-existing matter floating around in space from some fantastical tale of a 'big bang'. God wants us to know the truth and a part of that truth is that we live in a created realm. A realm of existence of His creating miraculously out of nothing. That one day, He merely spoke, and all that our eyes see just pretty quickly came into existence and that it was perfect in supporting the purpose for which God created it all...man!

So, while I certainly agree that @Humble_Disciple will believe what he will believe, and please, know that there was a time in my life that I believed a much similar scenario, I feel compelled to defend the word of God and its truth on this issue of how important it may be that God's children do believe 'all' of God's testimony to us.

God bless
Ted

I agree with all of that Ted, I was just giving a brief summary.