I've changed my mind.. I'm a pre-tribber again.

[BABerean2]

But it is not a "Jewish Church", either. It is an "in Christ Church".

It was mainly a "Jewish Church" for the first few years, starting on the Day of Pentecost.
(See "all the house of Israel" in Acts 2:36. See Romans 11:1. )

This is a fact that cannot be denied.

.

 

[Douggg]

Absolutely true. So why are there those who still insist on maintaining a distinction between the Jews and the Church?

If you're in Christ, you're in His Church. If you're not, your're not.

Those are the only distinctions that He recognizes.

No-one is saying there is a distinction between Jews and the Church as far as who is Saved goes. There is only one way to be saved. The distinction is that the church has not become Israel - a nation of the many nations of the world.

 

[Hank77]

If the true church is removed from the earth, 3.5 years before the return of Christ (IMO) - then the restrainer would be removed and all hell would be let loose upon the earth, literally. It is only the power of the Holy Spirit working in the world, which holds back the full extent of evil, and the hoards of the devil (IMHO).

The Holy Spirit was in the earth/world before man was even created, so why would we think that removing the church would mean that the Holy Spirit would no longer be present?
Does scripture say that the restrainer that Paul is speaking about is the Holy Spirit?

 

[BABerean2]

(and who's to say that Margaret McDonald was wrong?).

The Bible says that Margaret McDonald was wrong.

Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Mat_2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

Mat_27:11 And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.

Joh_4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

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[Douggg]

It was mainly a "Jewish Church" for the first few years, starting on the Day of Pentecost.
(See "all the house of Israel" in Acts 2:36. See Romans 11:1. )

This is a fact that cannot be denied.

.

It never was a "Jewish Church". The church was never built upon the Jews, but Christ.

Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

 

[jgr]

I had a look at one of the links. And I still think there will be a pre-trib rapture, (and who's to say that Margaret McDonald was wrong?).

Why do so many people believe in it? How can you refute Luke 21?

Tertullian (160-220 AD), The Resurrection of the Flesh, Chapter 22

"Watch, therefore, and pray always, that you may be accounted worthy to escape all those things, and to stand before the Son of man; Luke 21:36 that is, no doubt, at the resurrection, after all these things have been previously transacted."

This is the earliest known commentary on the verse. Tertullian interpreted it as referring to the resurrection, not a rapture. No other commentator interpreted it in any other way for the next more than 1,500 years.

 

[Hiscosmicgoldfish3]

The Holy Spirit was in the earth/world before man was even created, so why would we think that removing the church would mean that the Holy Spirit would no longer be present?
Does scripture say that the restrainer that Paul is speaking about is the Holy Spirit?

I think that it is the power of the Holy Spirit working in the true church that is removed. Christians can have power over evil spirits, empowered by the Holy Spirit. It doesn't say explicitly that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, but what else might it be? It says in Genesis that the Spirit of God hovered over the waters.

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

that suggests that the Spirit of God was not upon the darkness or the abyss. (but I might be wrong). but this might suggest that it is possible for the Holy Spirit to be absent from the earth?

 

[Douggg]

oh_4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Jesus was talking to a Samaritan woman. The Samaritan's apparently had some misaligned practices in a rift between them and the Jews in Jerusalem in their worship of God, Jesus did not mean that salvation is by the Jews.

From what I am reading from online commentary, the Samaritans only accepted the first five books of the bible. Which would have left out the prophecies concerning the messiah like in Isaiah, Zechariah, and Daniel. The Jews held those prophets as true.

But the woman did get this right...

25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

 

[jgr]

I think that it is the power of the Holy Spirit working in the true church that is removed. Christians can have power over evil spirits, empowered by the Holy Spirit. It doesn't say explicitly that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, but what else might it be? It says in Genesis that the Spirit of God hovered over the waters.

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

that suggests that the Spirit of God was not upon the darkness or the abyss. (but I might be wrong). but this might suggest that it is possible for the Holy Spirit to be absent from the earth?

The early church believed that the imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer which would eventually be "taken out of the way", but which was forestalling the emergence of the "holy" Roman empire, which Paul describes as the lawless one which would ultimately descend into apostasy. Notice in the related verses in 2 Thess. 2 that Paul does not reveal the identity of the restrainer. If Paul had believed that the Holy Spirit or the Church was the restrainer, there would have been no reason for him not to explicitly name either one. But Paul did have a reason. John Chrysostom, an apologist of the later early post-apostolic era, reveals it:

"Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him...But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

Paul did not wish to jeopardize the Church by attracting the attention of the Roman authorities.

History subsequently confirmed the validity of Paul's inspired prescience.

 

[Hank77]

Jesus was talking to a Samaritan woman. The Samaritan's apparently had some misaligned practices in a rift between them and the Jews in Jerusalem in their worship of God, Jesus did not mean that salvation is by the Jews.

From what I am reading from online commentary, the Samaritans only accepted the first five books of the bible. Which would have left out the prophecies concerning the messiah like in Isaiah, Zechariah, and Daniel. The Jews held those prophets as true.

But the woman did get this right...

25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

It was prophesied......

Zec 8:21 And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts: I will go also.
Zec 8:22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD.
Zec 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

 

[Douggg]

It was prophesied......

Zec 8:21 And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts: I will go also.
Zec 8:22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD.
Zec 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Will definitely happen. After Israel embraces Jesus as the messiah.

Countermissionary Jews of Judaism point that verse out all the time to me to say to me Christianity is wrong and they are right. They seem to focus on verse 23, not verse 21.

btw, there is a mindset drilled into many Jews that they are the teachers - and non-Jews are the students. So for many of them their goal to turn their perception what they are supposed to be into reality is to project themselves in that manner - which it makes it hard to communicate with many of the serious countermissionaries.

 

[Hiscosmicgoldfish3]

Spirit[/URL], he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him...But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

Paul did not wish to jeopardize the Church by attracting the attention of the Roman authorities.

History subsequently confirmed the validity of Paul's inspired prescience.

good point. probably right about that one.
but just using the gospel of Luke, it still says:
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Jesus is talking to two sets of people at the same time, in Luke 21 (IMO): those who were warned to escape Jerusalem in 67 AD, and the latter generation, who would see the approach of the tribulation.
To escape the 70 AD assault on Jerusalem, they had to escape to Jordan, in 67 AD when Titus first set up around Jerusalem, and was called back to Rome, for 3 years. So v.35 is talking about the latter generation, and being worthy to escape, again it is escape. Being worthy to escape, means being right with God (IMO).. and so the escape is to be air-lifted out of the way permanently.
But Luke 21 is also talking about everybody, who will be taken at the end of their life:
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

 

[BABerean2]

So v.35 is talking about the latter generation, and being worthy to escape, again it is escape. Being worthy to escape, means being right with God (IMO).. and so the escape is to be air-lifted out of the way permanently.
But Luke 21 is also talking about everybody, who will be taken at the end of their life:

The first section of Luke 21:24 is about the events of 70 AD.
The end of the verse contains a time period, which would follow those events.


Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

(Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.)
(We are now in the times of the Gentiles.)

In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Luk 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
Luk 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
Luk 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Verse 35 follows the Second Coming of Christ in the passage above.

.

 

[Hank77]

Verse 35 follows the Second Coming of Christ in the passage above.

Luke 21 Clarke's Commentary

Luke 21 Gill's Exposition

 

[betterorworse]

Divisions among believers in God, is worldly. Let's be honest.