I've changed my mind.. I'm a pre-tribber again.

[Hiscosmicgoldfish3]

Hi. I have gone back to pre-trib again. Why? ... a consensus of opinion.. I read Luke 21 again.. there seem to be signs and I have a general sense that the great tribulation is approaching.
I was toying with preterism, but I think that there are ways to explain how the kingdom came back in the day.. the resurrection and Pentecost, and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, Jesus appearing to the apostles...
that doesn't square with the whole of Luke 21.
I have indicated where I think the distinction can be drawn between the 1st century, and 66-70 AD, and the end of the age, after the close of the age of the Gentiles (1967).
I know that there are many post tribbers on the forum, and this might frustrate/annoy, but also perhaps discussion.

Luke 21

5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,

6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. (70AD)

7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. (not 70AD, but the end of the age/world).

12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolk, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. (1st
century).

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. (70AD)

21 Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter there into. (70AD)

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. (70AD)

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. (70AD)

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: (70AD)

and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. (End of the age/world).

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; (End of the age/world).

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. (End of the age/world).

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (End of the age/world).

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. (Both - 66-70AD and end of the age/world).

29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. (70 AD again).

33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. (End of the age/world).

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. (Both - 66-70AD and end of the age/world).

 

[Not me]

I have heard the four arguments concerning the four positions
)pre
)post
)mid
)none

One of these is true. I have no idea which one. So I have decided that I want “oil in my lamp” so that whichever is true I’m found “doing His will” when He makes His appearing.

Much love in Christ, Not me

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

I know that there are many post tribbers on the forum, and this might frustrate/annoy, but also perhaps discussion.

I am glad the Holy Spirit has revealed the truth to you brother. Maybe your testimony here will help others see the light. Welcome back.

 

[Hiscosmicgoldfish3]

I am glad the Holy Spirit has revealed the truth to you brother. Maybe your testimony here will help others see the light. Welcome back.

yep. thanks.

 

[DavidPT]

Hi. I have gone back to pre-trib again. Why? ... a consensus of opinion.. I read Luke 21 again.. there seem to be signs and I have a general sense that the great tribulation is approaching.
I was toying with preterism, but I think that there are ways to explain how the kingdom came back in the day.. the resurrection and Pentecost, and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, Jesus appearing to the apostles...
that doesn't square with the whole of Luke 21.
I have indicated where I think the distinction can be drawn between the 1st century, and 66-70 AD, and the end of the age, after the close of the age of the Gentiles (1967).
I know that there are many post tribbers on the forum, and this might frustrate/annoy, but also perhaps discussion.

Luke 21

5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,

6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. (70AD)

7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. (not 70AD, but the end of the age/world).

12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolk, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. (1st
century).

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. (70AD)

21 Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter there into. (70AD)

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. (70AD)

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. (70AD)

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: (70AD)

and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. (End of the age/world).

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; (End of the age/world).

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. (End of the age/world).

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (End of the age/world).

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. (Both - 66-70AD and end of the age/world).

29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. (70 AD again).

33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. (End of the age/world).

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. (Both - 66-70AD and end of the age/world).

You did good to distance yourself from Preterism before you got too involved in that view and eventually sucked in. Yet you jumped right back into the fire once you adopted the Pretrib view again. A better way to have gone would be like such----was initially Pretrib, almost changed to Preterism, then finally changed positions to the correct position, post trib. BTW, just having some fun here. Not annoyed that you changed back to Pretrib, yet I feel it was not a wise decision though, the fact Scripture teaches post trib instead.

 

[Revealing Times]

Hi. I have gone back to pre-trib again. Why? ... a consensus of opinion.. I read Luke 21 again.. there seem to be signs and I have a general sense that the great tribulation is approaching.
I was toying with preterism, but I think that there are ways to explain how the kingdom came back in the day.. the resurrection and Pentecost, and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, Jesus appearing to the apostles...
that doesn't square with the whole of Luke 21.
I have indicated where I think the distinction can be drawn between the 1st century, and 66-70 AD, and the end of the age, after the close of the age of the Gentiles (1967).
I know that there are many post tribbers on the forum, and this might frustrate/annoy, but also perhaps discussion.

Luke 21

5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,

6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. (70AD)

7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. (not 70AD, but the end of the age/world).

12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolk, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. (1st
century).

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. (70AD)

21 Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter there into. (70AD)

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. (70AD)

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. (70AD)

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: (70AD)

and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. (End of the age/world).

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; (End of the age/world).

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. (End of the age/world).

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (End of the age/world).

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. (Both - 66-70AD and end of the age/world).

29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. (70 AD again).

33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. (End of the age/world).

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. (Both - 66-70AD and end of the age/world).

Verse 21 is during the 70th Week, but that's not my point here.

1 Cor. 15 tells us, if we pay attention, that flesh and blood can not enter Heaven. Thus when it says the Dead are raised first without corruption (NO BODY) and we who are alive and remain are thus CHANGED in the twinkling of and eye from corruption (Flesh Body) to inncoruption (Spirit Man just like the DEAD who have NO BODY) and go to meet Jesus in the air we must do one of two things:

1. Come back to earth with NO BODIES !! Like Spirit Men

2. Go to Haven, Marry the Lamb (Rev. 19) ad get our new bodies (White Robes) then return to earth with Jesus at the Second Coming, just like Rev. 19 explains we will do.

I proffer that there is no way we are going to come back to earth from the sky while meeting Jesus, the KEY IS......Paul is telling everyone HEY.....These guys are going to Heaven, they can not enter heaven with a CORRUPT BODY, thus they have to be changed into a SPIRIT MAN.

CASE CLOSED............

 

[Douggg]

Hi. I have gone back to pre-trib again.

Mr. goldfish, may I make a suggestion?

Instead of pre-trib, adopt the anytime rapture view. Which with the anytime rapture view, the position is that the rapture could happen pre-70th week (pre-trib). Or it may happen after the 70th week begins. But before the Day of the Lord begins, when the Antichrist goes into the temple and sits, claims to be God.

Anytime between now and when it actually takes place.

 

[phydaux]

I'm glad you're no longer one of the wicked servants who says "The Lord delays his coming."

Welcome home, brother. We saved your chair.

 

[phydaux]

Donald Barnhouse, popular radio bible teacher from many years ago, whenever he ran across one of his friends that he knew was a mid- or post- tribber, would always greet them with a huge SIGH and sing "Sad day, sad day, Jesus can't come back today..."

Something like that works among friends who know you love them, and know that you have a quirky sense of humor (both the venerable Dr. Barnhouse and myself are guilty of that). Around here, I think, not so much.

 

[1stcenturylady]

..

 

[jgr]

Donald Barnhouse, popular radio bible teacher from many years ago, whenever he ran across one of his friends that he knew was a mid- or post- tribber, would always greet them with a huge SIGH and sing "Sad day, sad day, Jesus can't come back today..."

Something like that works among friends who know you love them, and know that you have a quirky sense of humor (both the venerable Dr. Barnhouse and myself are guilty of that). Around here, I think, not so much.

Dr. Barnhouse was for some reason unaware of the numerous NT scriptures that acknowledge tribulation as a predictable and in fact essential characteristic of every believer's experience. If he had, he could have discontinued his sighing and that song.

There is nothing in a scriptural understanding of tribulation that precludes Christ's return at His Father's foreordained moment.

 

[klutedavid]

I have heard the four arguments concerning the four positions
)per
)post
)mid
)none

One of these is true. I have no idea which one. So I have decided that I want “oil in my lamp” so that whichever is true I’m found “doing His will” when He makes His appearing.

Much love in Christ, Not me

I think there is more than four positions.

 

[betterorworse]

It's healthy to change your mind for good.

I don't know anything about pre trib or no pre trib.

 

[betterorworse]

I think there is more than four positions.

I'm for that also.

 

[Not me]

I think there is more than four positions.

Curious, what are they?

In Christ, Not me

 

[klutedavid]

Curious, what are they?

In Christ, Not me

For starters, there is a Prewrath rapture interpretation, which is one of several premillennial views.

Further, Preterism itself is divided into two very different interpretations.

Partial preterism is generally considered to be a historic orthodox interpretation as it affirms all eschatological points of the ecumenical Creeds of the Church. Some partial preterists may believe that the Antichrist, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord were not historically fulfilled. (wikipedia)

Full preterism differs from partial preterism in that full preterists believe that the destruction of Jerusalem fulfilled all eschatological or "end times" events, including the resurrection of the dead and Jesus' Second Coming, or Parousia, and the Final Judgment. (wikipedia)

 

[Not me]

For starters, there is a Prewrath rapture interpretation, which is one of several premillennial views.

Further, Preterism itself is divided into two very different interpretations.

Partial preterism is generally considered to be a historic orthodox interpretation as it affirms all eschatological points of the ecumenical Creeds of the Church. Some partial preterists may believe that the Antichrist, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord were not historically fulfilled. (wikipedia)

Full preterism differs from partial preterism in that full preterists believe that the destruction of Jerusalem fulfilled all eschatological or "end times" events, including the resurrection of the dead and Jesus' Second Coming, or Parousia, and the Final Judgment. (wikipedia)

Ok thanks, variations on a theme.

In Christ, Not me

 

[betterorworse]

This all sounds exciting. Woo

 

[jgr]

yep. thanks.

One aspect of doctrinal investigation and examination that should not be neglected is that of the doctrine's historicity. Was it found in the early church, and is there an enduring record of its presence in the annals of historic true Church orthodoxy? Is there evidence that it was espoused and taught by recognized saints, apologists, and leaders in the historic true Christian Church? If not, why not?

A pretrib rapture doctrine does not fare well when subjected to this scrutiny. There is no record of it for the first over 100 years of post-apostolic New Testament Church history, until the time of Irenaeus, whose known writings date to about 180 AD. There is, however, no unanimity regarding Irenaeus' position on a pretrib rapture. Some say he espoused it, but other even more authoritative sources say that he did not. So his record is inconclusive.

What is not inconclusive, however, is that the pretrib rapture doctrine does not make a further appearance in the annals of true Church history for over 1,500 years, not appearing until 19th century contemporary dispensationalism incorporates and advocates it as part of the futurism which is integral and essential to dispensational prophetic doctrine.

So the pretrib rapture doctrine is unseen and unheard in the historic true Church's orthodox prophetic annals for the vast majority of that time. This is a legitimate reason for caution, as its relatively recent appearance under the guise of new truth is not dissimilar from other groups making claims which turn out to be essentially cultic.

The candle of truth may burn low, but God ensures that it will never be completely extinguished.

Just an additional factor in your study which should not be overlooked.

 

[betterorworse]

All free to be who they are.