I've been working a YEC (mostly) forum for a while.

[Micaiah]

This mindset is really disturbing. They can stop people disagreeing with them in real time, but that doesn't alter the fact that the arguments against their positions still exist. They seem to think that if dissenters are silenced, the dissenting opinon itself is vanquished. Putting that together with the fact that this movement has a large political component, I think we can see what sort of goverment they have in mind for when they're the ones in power.

I though it was a fair call. How many pages did the thread go one for. Everyone had made their points and more, and there were some heated exchanges.

 

[Micaiah]

I'm just going to say that the terms used to describe people (Creationists, YEC, OEC, theistic evolutionist, ect) are bothering me. I think they overgeneralizations, and make it very easy to sterotype people according to their views.

Agreed. I do not like being stereotyped as a YEC, but it is a convenient tag. I am a Christian who believes the plain truth of Scripture. When the YEC's start to set themselves above God's word, I'm out.

 

[Arikay]

Can you please show us how his arguments are a gross distortion of the truth?

From what I have seen they are correct. Militant atheists seem to want creationism to equal christianity about as much as some fundementalists want Russian communism to equal atheism. Unfortunatly many creationists agree with them.

You arguments are a gross distortion of the truth. The sad thing is I really think you fail to recognise this.

 

[Cantuar]

Exactly. This is what makes creationism scary. Of course, I think militant atheists will put together the same type of government! Science can only survive if the reasonable people -- theists, agnostics, and atheists -- unite and drive back the fanatics at either extreme.

Yes, I'm sure militant atheists are as ruthless as any other militants, but it does seem to be the case that deletion, editing, warnings, and suspensions of pro-evolution posters on Christian discussions boards is depressingly common (this board being a refreshing exception). On the other hand, the II board doesn't seem to treat creationists and other theists nearly so dismissively. They can get booted for breaking the rules, but it seems like athiests or pro-evolution supporters who are theists are given a hard time on some of those Christian boards just because they disagree with the theistic position.

 

[Arikay]

There is the plus of having evidence on the evolutionist side. Often some creationist boards dont like their strawmen being taken appart, so they ban the people doing it. Evolutionist boards on the other hand, have many many fewer strawmen, and so there is less fear of someone coming in the destroying their strawmen. also, Evo boards seem to understand science better, and so more people dont link evolution to their faith and then feel like someone is challenging their faith when they are really just challenging their science.

Yes, I'm sure militant atheists are as ruthless as any other militants, but it does seem to be the case that deletion, editing, warnings, and suspensions of pro-evolution posters on Christian discussions boards is depressingly common (this board being a refreshing exception). On the other hand, the II board doesn't seem to treat creationists and other theists nearly so dismissively. They can get booted for breaking the rules, but it seems like athiests or pro-evolution supporters who are theists are given a hard time on some of those Christian boards just because they disagree with the theistic position.

 

[Bushido216]

Christianbeginning, welcome to the evil theistic evolution and non-literal Genesis conspiracy! (We have to get a snappier name for this ) Check the posts by Vance, Mike Flynn, Karl, seebs, notto, myself, etc. and you will find that we have all reached the same conclusions you have.

The only difference is that I have taken your conclusions about creationists further to the point that I submit they have made a false idol out of their literal interpretation and worship it instead of God.

EBI - Evil Bible-Interpretors

 

[Modus]

It was supposed to be taken literally. its the adam part that wasn't.

Two interpretations,

1) if adam and eve represents the very first humans, and the first animals with a soul, then they most likely represent a group, but its a group we all are linked too, you, me, jesus, etc. We can still be linked to them like this and not have them be 2 literal people that lived 6000 years ago. The genealogies link us to these 2 symbolic people instead of explaining our full linkage through the years because its trying to get accross a spiritual point and not give us data.

2) If Adam and Eve represent every human that ever lived (as a symbol of our souls and our nature) then we are all linked to this symbolic Adam and Eve. They are born in all of us, and pick the fruit in all of us. So the genealogies link us to them, because they are symbols for every mans fall. Jesus was linked to them because even though he was perfect, he was still a man, and thus still connected to them.

So, as you can see the genealogies can be correct without the need of a literal reading of Adam and Eve.

Can you tell us what the fall of man, leaving the garden of eden, and original sin represent. Also, who is Kane and Abel suposed to represent?

 

[lucaspa]

When the YEC's start to set themselves above God's word, I'm out.

Then you had better be out by now. Does Genesis 6-8 describe a violent Flood? Isn't pre-Flood Eden's location identified by post-Flood rivers. For that to be "plain truth" you have to have a gentle Flood that doesn't change the geography. Yet YECers demand a violent Flood. In contradiction to a plain reading of Scripture.

Robert Kofahl and Kelly Segraves from _The Creation Explanation_
(1975) P. 226
"The Flood was accompanied by violent movements of the Earth's crust and by
volcanic activities of momentous proportions. Tremendous tidal waves and
rushing currents scoured and deeply eroded the continental surface. Entire
forests were ripped up and transported long distances to be dumped where the
currents slowed."
In John Whitcomb and Henry Morris, in _The Genesis Flood_ (1961)
pp. 242-243
"Yielding of the crust at even one point, with resultant escape of magmas and
water or steam, would lead to earth movements causing further fractures
until, as the scriptures portray so graphically, 'the same day were all
fountains of the great deep broken up' (Genesis 7:11) Truly this was a
gigantic catastrophe, beside which the explosions of the largest hydrogen
bomb, or a hundred such bombs, becomes insignificant!"
And finally:
J.E. Schmich, "The Flood and the Ark": "Creation Research Society Quarterly"
11:2:94-97 (1974)
"The worldwide ocean of the Genesis flood was swept by wind storms that would
make modern tornadoes seem like a zephyr."

 

[lucaspa]

Can you tell us what the fall of man, leaving the garden of eden, and original sin represent. Also, who is Kane and Abel suposed to represent?

Genesis 2-3 represents the disobedience of God by all of us. Adam and Eve are archetypes for each and every one of us. Each of us disobeys God and is cut off from Him -- exiled from the Garden. If you want, original sin is selfishness, which is an inherent part of us thanks to evolution -- the selfish gene. We will do what is best for me rather than for someone else.

Cain and Abel represent the different ways of worshipping Yahweh. Abel brought sacrifices of animals and Cain of plants. (Yahweh here is a very bad grandparent. Every grandparent knows you don't praise one grandchild and then belittle the next.) Yahweh choosed to be worshipped by animal sacrifices. But the point is that Cain represents the murderous, jealous, insecure nature of each of us. The tendency to violence inherent in humans. And Cain let it out. Also, the lesson is that we are our brother's keeper. Cain was wrong.

 

[lucaspa]

Yes, I'm sure militant atheists are as ruthless as any other militants, but it does seem to be the case that deletion, editing, warnings, and suspensions of pro-evolution posters on Christian discussions boards is depressingly common (this board being a refreshing exception). On the other hand, the II board doesn't seem to treat creationists and other theists nearly so dismissively. They can get booted for breaking the rules, but it seems like athiests or pro-evolution supporters who are theists are given a hard time on some of those Christian boards just because they disagree with the theistic position.

Oh, I got booted from a couple of atheist boards for questioning dogma. Such as whether evolution really is atheism or defending the methodology of the intercessory prayer papers! www.skeptics.org asked me to leave. I'll have to look up the other one where I was barred. But I admit my ratio of being asked to leave is 5 creationist to 2 atheist so far.

 

[lucaspa]

EBI - Evil Bible-Interpretors

Nice try! But we need to get the theistic evolutionist in their somewhere. THELBI -- theistic evolutionist liberal bible interpreters?

 

[Bushido216]

Too many big words, unfortunately.

Liberal Interpretationist Conspiracy?

 

[Arthur Dietrich]

Too many big words, unfortunately.

Liberal Interpretationist Conspiracy?

or

Liberal Interpretationist Conspiracy Kids (LICK)

ok...maybe not XXP


What are we talking about? (only read the last post XP)

 

[Bushido216]

We're not all kids though.

 

[ikester7579]

"Arikay is an atheist, yes, but he is also dedicated to truth and does not want to see Christianity destroyed when it might possibly be right!"

Yep, not to mention If christianity is to be destroyed it needs to be from something truthfull, creationism is definetly not that. Same goes for any religion, even my own. If its right, then I dont want to see it destroyed, and if its not right, ive seen it do enough good (when taken in appropriate non fundementalist doses) that I would want it to be destroyed. And unfortunatly to atheists or even non christians, creationism turns christianity into a laughing matter and a false religion.

It will be destroyed and there's really nothing anyone can do about it. Why? Because God said it would and it has to be for the Tribulation. But it has nothing to do with believing in 6 day creation.
I also seem to remember where those who had the truth would be killed so it would not get out. Like the thread I started once called "What would you die for?" Everyone thought it was funny and poked fun at it. I have no problem giving my life for God, because in the Tribulaton, those who don't, have to accept the mark. And once that happens, your fate is sealed. So was that thread a joke? No, I was taking notes.

 

[Cantuar]

Oh, I got booted from a couple of atheist boards for questioning dogma. Such as whether evolution really is atheism or defending the methodology of the intercessory prayer papers! www.skeptics.org asked me to leave. I'll have to look up the other one where I was barred. But I admit my ratio of being asked to leave is 5 creationist to 2 atheist so far.

Prof, the II board (that's what you mean my skeptics,org, right?) doesn't boot people just for questioning dogma. I mean, you aren't even an atheist, so you'd be expected to question atheism. Arikay repeats the evolution-isn't-atheism stuff there all the time (so di I for that matter), and most of the atheist board regulars are in complete agreement. People have also argued both sides of the intercessory prayer studies and everybody's survived the experience (although at least one of the threads wasn't especially pleasant). I remember when one atheist who I knew from another board turned up there and started yelling at people for being racist every time they disagreed with him, he was given a stern warning about his attitude and told that he'd be deregistered if he didn't stop the attacks, but he's still a member (doesn't post any more, though, although he tends to be sporadic in his board attendence anyway).

You've been banned from five creationist boards? Does that get you a medal from the High Command of the Great Atheist Conspiracy?

 

[Arikay]

What Lucaspa said.

An interesting interpretation I heard of Cain and Abel was thats its a story of how people are saved. The Vegtable offering represent works and the animal offering represents blood. In NT times, blood = faith. God refused the works yet accepted the blood, thus you are not saved through works but through faith in the blood sacrifice of Jesus.

also, it would take some studying but I do find the imagery of a flaming moving sword protecting eden as being heavily symbolic and it would be interesting to figure out what it symbolizes. As throughout history use of swords in paintings and writtings often have a symbolic background to them.

Can you tell us what the fall of man, leaving the garden of eden, and original sin represent. Also, who is Kane and Abel suposed to represent?

 

[vajradhara]

What Lucaspa said.

An interesting interpretation I heard of Cain and Abel was thats its a story of how people are saved. The Vegtable offering represent works and the animal offering represents blood. In NT times, blood = faith. God refused the works yet accepted the blood, thus you are not saved through works but through faith in the blood sacrifice of Jesus.

also, it would take some studying but I do find the imagery of a flaming moving sword protecting eden as being heavily symbolic and it would be interesting to figure out what it symbolizes. As throughout history use of swords in paintings and writtings often have a symbolic background to them.

Namaste Arikay,

thank you for the post.

i've been engaged in a discussion on symbols and symbology on another board.. in any event...

in the Buddhist tradition the "flaming sword" represents wisdom, usually weilded by the Bodhisattva Manjurshi who represents enlightened wisdom. i would be curious to know if Christians interpet the flaming sword as symbol or fact.

 

[RhetorTheo]

I've always loved the argument that "a person cannot understand the Bible unless he's saved," and "a person cannot do anything good until he's saved." If that's true, then becoming saved isn't good, and a person can't learn to be saved through the Bible.

 

[Arikay]

Very interesting.

Although I assume YECs take it literally, it seems highly symbolic. I mean, if you are god and you can block people out using any method imaginable, and of all the more effective choices, you pick a flaming sword, there has got to be more of a meaning to it, than just a literal sword.

Namaste Arikay,

thank you for the post.

i've been engaged in a discussion on symbols and symbology on another board.. in any event...

in the Buddhist tradition the "flaming sword" represents wisdom, usually weilded by the Bodhisattva Manjurshi who represents enlightened wisdom. i would be curious to know if Christians interpet the flaming sword as symbol or fact.