It's so difficult to find a non dispensational church...

[Jamdoc]

I just moved and now I'm having to look for a new church, there is a KJV independent fundamental baptist church literally 2 blocks away from me but.. as is common for protestant denomination churches they are dispensationalist pretribulationists.

ever since meditating on Romans 11 for a significant amount of time, I can't take dispensationalism seriously anymore.
However because of meditating on Romans 11 for a significant amount of time I can't take Ammillenialists who parrot off "we're spiritual Israel, the church replaces Israel" seriously either.

Israel as branches of the olive tree were broken off from unbelief, and we, the wild branches, were grafted into the tree, but Paul says God will lift the blindness from Israel and they will be grafted back in.

So it's not a replacement, nor is it 2 separate plans. John in Revelation 7 makes a distinction between the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel, and the great multitude from every tribe, tongue and nation. I think there's a difference but it's not so hard line as dispensationalists tote.
Why is it so hard to find a church that doesn't swing to either extreme on this issue?

 

[Sorn]

Have a look at this video for a study (or another view) of Romans 11

 

[Jamdoc]

Have a look at this video for a study (or another view) of Romans 11

You're not going to convince me of dispensationalism. It's just not going to happen.
Dispensationalism basically serves to function as a way to try and force a pretribulation rapture that doesn't exist in the bible.
and I just get oh so tired of pastors having to interrupt their own sermons on any prophetic books with "but this won't happen until after the rapture" almost like they're trying to convince themselves.

I'd settle for historical premillennial post trib since finding one that is pre wrath is going to be extremely difficult but it's just hard finding something that's not full blown dispensational pretribulation, or amillennial replacement theologians. It's 1 extreme or the other.

What I really want is Historical Premillennialism.

In fact I am going to dispel this entire video with 1 verse:
Romans 1

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans was not written "to Israel" it was written to saved people in Rome. This idea that books need to be carved up so that some parts of it are meant for unsaved Jews who won't even read it is just pure nonsense.

 

[Sorn]

You're not going to convince me of dispensationalism. It's just not going to happen.
Dispensationalism basically serves to function as a way to try and force a pretribulation rapture that doesn't exist in the bible.
and I just get oh so tired of pastors having to interrupt their own sermons on any prophetic books with "but this won't happen until after the rapture" almost like they're trying to convince themselves.

I'd settle for historical premillennial post trib since finding one that is pre wrath is going to be extremely difficult but it's just hard finding something that's not full blown dispensational pretribulation, or amillennial replacement theologians. It's 1 extreme or the other.

What I really want is Historical Premillennialism.

Its up to you if you watch his videos and what you think of them
basically the position Dr P Felter presents is summarized as follows:

Currently we are in the Church age, ie the Dispensation of Grace, the time when God extends salvation to the Gentiles.
This began effectively with the conversion of Saul, the Apostle to the Gentiles.
God will eventually bring the Dispensation of Grace to an end, and that will be marked by the rapture. Then God will turn His attention back to the Jews, He has not abandoned them, just put them aside for the time being.
ALL His promises to the Jew will be fulfilled. When the church is no longer on Earth God will deal with the Jews under the Covenant He has with them. That is the last week of the 70 week prophecy. The 7 year tribulation. Jesus is their Messiah and He will save them from complete destruction and He will then establish the Jewish Kingdom for 1000 years.
But all this happens AFTER the church has been removed from the Earth, ie end of Dispensation of Grace.

I just happen to think that the views Dr P Felter presents are some of the most consistent I've seen in a long time and allow a lot of pieces to fit into place but I am still going through (ie studying, evaluating) his views but so far, to the extent i have studied them, they are holding up pretty well.

 

[Sorn]

and I just get oh so tired of pastors having to interrupt their own sermons on any prophetic books with "but this won't happen until after the rapture" almost like they're trying to convince themselves.

Without knowing what you mean by that specifically, keep in mind that just because something may have happened in the past that seems to fit a prophecy doesn't mean that it was just a type of the thing the real prophecy is about & so it is still to happen

 

[Jamdoc]

Its up to you if you watch his videos and what you think of them
basically the position Dr P Felter presents is summarized as follows:

Currently we are in the Church age, ie the Dispensation of Grace, the time when God extends salvation to the Gentiles.
This began effectively with the conversion of Saul, the Apostle to the Gentiles.
God will eventually bring the Dispensation of Grace to an end, and that will be marked by the rapture. Then God will turn His attention back to the Jews, He has not abandoned them, just put them aside for the time being.
ALL His promises to the Jew will be fulfilled. When the church is no longer on Earth God will deal with the Jews under the Covenant He has with them. That is the last week of the 70 week prophecy. The 7 year tribulation. Jesus is their Messiah and He will save them from complete destruction and He will then establish the Jewish Kingdom for 1000 years.
But all this happens AFTER the church has been removed from the Earth, ie end of Dispensation of Grace.

I just happen to think that the views Dr P Felter presents are some of the most consistent I've seen in a long time and allow a lot of pieces to fit into place but I am still going through (ie studying, evaluating) his views but so far, to the extent i have studied them, they are holding up pretty well.

yeah, read my edit, I addressed who Romans was addressed to with 1 verse.

There were both Jewish converts and Gentile converts in Rome, it is one body of Christ, One olive tree, some branches were broken off from unbelief, and they will be grafted back in. the chapter debunks both hard dispensationalism and replacement theology in one passage of truth.

But anyway, it's a tangent subject not trying to debate dispensationalism, just finding it difficult to find a church that is not full blown dispensational or amillennialist which holds to replacement theology.

 

[Sorn]

You're not going to convince me of dispensationalism. It's just not going to happen.
Dispensationalism basically serves to function as a way to try and force a pretribulation rapture that doesn't exist in the bible.
and I just get oh so tired of pastors having to interrupt their own sermons on any prophetic books with "but this won't happen until after the rapture" almost like they're trying to convince themselves.

I'd settle for historical premillennial post trib since finding one that is pre wrath is going to be extremely difficult but it's just hard finding something that's not full blown dispensational pretribulation, or amillennial replacement theologians. It's 1 extreme or the other.

What I really want is Historical Premillennialism.

In fact I am going to dispel this entire video with 1 verse:
Romans 1


Romans was not written "to Israel" it was written to saved people in Rome. This idea that books need to be carved up so that some parts of it are meant for unsaved Jews who won't even read it is just pure nonsense.

Well he argues, and explains his argument in one of his other videos, that he was writing to Jews (or proselytes) living in other cities / countries, not to Christians as such. See his very first video on his channel:

 

[Sorn]

the chapter debunks both hard dispensationalism and replacement theology in one passage of truth.

How do you see it, presume you mean chpt 11, debunking dispensationalism??

Good luck finding a church you like. Most are pretty mainstream.

 

[Jamdoc]

How do you see it, presume you mean chpt 11, debunking dispensationalism??

Good luck finding a church you like. Most are pretty mainstream.

Because dispensationalism sees a hard line between the church and Israel, as if God has separate plans for them, Paul doesn't treat it like that, it is one tree, we are not a separate tree but we are wild branches grafted into the tree that already exists.

Revelation does this as well, in Revelation 7 there's both a distinct group of the tribes of Israel, and the great multitude from every nation.
Revelation 12 has the woman that gave birth to the man-child (Israel) but then "and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.", so Christians.
We essentially have a unified destiny despite having some distinct differences. There's a difference between Israel and the Church, and there are future plans for Israel to get saved, but it's not a hard chasm. We get saved the same way, we are both persecuted, and we have the same end result.

where I get fed up with dispensationalism is that the more dispensational a church is the more of the bible they will overlook as "that's for Israel not the Church", the more "cut and paste" their treatment of scripture, the more cherrypicking, etc.

I want the whole counsel of God, not just selected new testament scriptures while overlooking the rest as "that's for the Jews"

 

[Dan Perez]

Because dispensationalism sees a hard line between the church and Israel, as if God has separate plans for them, Paul doesn't treat it like that, it is one tree, we are not a separate tree but we are wild branches grafted into the tree that already exists.

Revelation does this as well, in Revelation 7 there's both a distinct group of the tribes of Israel, and the great multitude from every nation.
Revelation 12 has the woman that gave birth to the man-child (Israel) but then "and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.", so Christians.
We essentially have a unified destiny despite having some distinct differences. There's a difference between Israel and the Church, and there are future plans for Israel to get saved, but it's not a hard chasm. We get saved the same way, we are both persecuted, and we have the same end result.

where I get fed up with dispensationalism is that the more dispensational a church is the more of the bible they will overlook as "that's for Israel not the Church", the more "cut and paste" their treatment of scripture, the more cherrypicking, etc.

I want the whole counsel of God, not just selected new testament scriptures while overlooking the rest as "that's for the Jews"

IWould you look at the DISPENSATIONAL section and see what dan p has written and , PLEASE tell me if , which are CUT and PASTE and have your thoughts .

dan p

 

[Jamdoc]

IWould you look at the DISPENSATIONAL section and see what dan p has written and , PLEASE tell me if , which are CUT and PASTE and have your thoughts .

dan p

by cut and paste I mean they will look at a passage of scripture like Matthew 24 and decide that "this is for the jews, not the church" so they'll teach 1 verse here and there as being relevant while excising out other verses because "OBVIOUSLY" they're not relevant to the church.

 

[anetazo]

Let me point you to Corinthians chapter 3 . Apostates broke away from foundation of christ and formed denominations. These hirelings hold back the truth from people. Its about attendance and money.
They teach tradition of men and false doctrine. Amos chapter 8 , were in time of famine, its hearing God's Truth.
The priests and pastors have to teach from monthly quarterly packet. They will lose their position, salary and pension, if they don't teach tradition of men. Get the picture.
Thier are very few churches that teach sound doctrine.
I have several brothers who lack faith, and study with misguided preachers. People like this are closed minded.

When satan as antichrist comes near future, many will worship him. They study under apostates. They don't have gospel armory on of ephesians chapter 6.
I recommend shepherds chapel, thier on YouTube.
Its your decision.

 

[Jamdoc]

Let me point you to Corinthians chapter 3 . Apostates broke away from foundation of christ and formed denominations. These hirelings hold back the truth from people. Its about attendance and money.
They teach tradition of men and false doctrine. Amos chapter 8 , were in time of famine, its hearing God's Truth.
The priests and pastors have to teach from monthly quarterly packet. They will lose their position, salary and pension, if they don't teach tradition of men. Get the picture.
Thier are very few churches that teach sound doctrine.
I have several brothers who lack faith, and study with misguided preachers. People like this are closed minded.

When satan as antichrist comes near future, many will worship him. They study under apostates. They don't have gospel armory on of ephesians chapter 6.
I recommend shepherds chapel, thier on YouTube.
Its your decision.

actually Amos 8 is not about the past
it's about the future.

Here I'll show you

Amos 8

1 Thus hath the Lord God shewed unto me: and behold a basket of summer fruit.
2 And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the Lord unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.

the summer fruit is figs. if you'll remember Jesus in the Olivet Discourse, Jesus talked about the fig tree bringing forth new leaves, that you'll know summer is nigh. Here God directly says that the figs represent Israel. 1967 when Jerusalem was retaken I believe at least, represents the fig tree bringing forth new leaves (not 1948, Jesus isn't returning to Tel Aviv), these figs have been picked and put into a basket, they're being harvested in other words.

8 Shall not the land tremble for this, and every one mourn that dwelleth therein? and it shall rise up wholly as a flood; and it shall be cast out and drowned, as by the flood of Egypt.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord God, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:
10 And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day.

Compare this to old testament passages about the Day of the Lord, like Isaiah 13, but also, and especially Revelation 6:12-17. The earthquake, the sun darknening, the wailing and mourning of the Earth dwellers. So 6th seal, Day of the Lord.

11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.
13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.

After the 6th seal, nobody is preaching the Word of God anymore (I believe they are there in Revelation 7, worshiping God on the Throne and the Lamb.). So Day of the Lord, followed by a famine of people on Earth preaching the Word of God.. connect the dots.. and also fear, because it seems that people will go looking for the Word of God in those days and be unable to find it, think of the parable of the 10 virgins, the 5 that were shut out. Not told come back later, but shut out and told by Jesus that He didn't know them.

So what do people do?

14 They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth; and, The manner of Beersheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again.

The sin of Samaria was idolatry, Dan was the first tribe to go wholly apostate (note they're not listed in the tribes in Revelation 7)

to me at least it parallels this in Revelation 9

20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Without being preached the Word of God.. they double down on worshiping devils.

 

[anetazo]

actually Amos 8 is not about the past
it's about the future.

Here I'll show you

Amos 8

the summer fruit is figs. if you'll remember Jesus in the Olivet Discourse, Jesus talked about the fig tree bringing forth new leaves, that you'll know summer is nigh. Here God directly says that the figs represent Israel. 1967 when Jerusalem was retaken I believe at least, represents the fig tree bringing forth new leaves (not 1948, Jesus isn't returning to Tel Aviv), these figs have been picked and put into a basket, they're being harvested in other words.


Compare this to old testament passages about the Day of the Lord, like Isaiah 13, but also, and especially Revelation 6:12-17. The earthquake, the sun darknening, the wailing and mourning of the Earth dwellers. So 6th seal, Day of the Lord.


After the 6th seal, nobody is preaching the Word of God anymore (I believe they are there in Revelation 7, worshiping God on the Throne and the Lamb.). So Day of the Lord, followed by a famine of people on Earth preaching the Word of God.. connect the dots.. and also fear, because it seems that people will go looking for the Word of God in those days and be unable to find it, think of the parable of the 10 virgins, the 5 that were shut out. Not told come back later, but shut out and told by Jesus that He didn't know them.

So what do people do?

The sin of Samaria was idolatry, Dan was the first tribe to go wholly apostate (note they're not listed in the tribes in Revelation 7)

to me at least it parallels this in Revelation 9

Without being preached the Word of God.. they double down on worshiping devils.

Of course amos chapter 8 is future. It applys to our generation. Isaiah chapter 6 and romans chapter 11, some people have spirit of slumber. The majority don't have the holy spirit.
I respect other people's beliefs and opinions. Very few people have holy spirit, documentation, Corinthians chapter 2.
Revelation chapter 6, satan as antichrist comes at the 6th seal, 6th trump, and 6th vial, 666. The number of antichrist.
Ezekiel chapter 13, God hates the fly away doctrine, the rapture theory. It's false doctrine.
At the 7th trump, Jesus returns to Jerusalem. Antichrist comes 6th trump to Jerusalem, 5 month period, documentation, second thessalonians chapter 2 and revelation chapter 9.
I don't believe in the rapture theory.
The son of perdition is satan, he plays his role as antichrist near future, Jerusalem.
I studied under pastor Arnold murray and dennis, shepherds chapel, for 23 years. I think I know something about this.
Isaiah chapter 29, the mystery of God is hidden from many hirelings. They have spirit of stupor. Very few people have holy spirit.
You need holy spirit to understand mystery of God and meat of God's word.
Romans chapter 11, God's Election have holy spirit. They are predestined, chosen before foundation of the world, ephesians chapter 1 to also document.
God has placed spirit of stupor on many people, documentation, romans chapter 11, Isaiah chapter 6, Matthew chapter 13, Isaiah chapter 29.
I respect other people's beliefs and opinions. I won't sugar coat Gods word. I witness for my Lord Jesus. If no one agrees, it's fine. Jesus will return near future and make neccessary corrections in His kingdom. Take care.

 

[Jamdoc]

Of course amos chapter 8 is future. It applys to our generation. Isaiah chapter 6 and romans chapter 11, some people have spirit of slumber. The majority don't have the holy spirit.
I respect other people's beliefs and opinions. Very few people have holy spirit, documentation, Corinthians chapter 2.
Revelation chapter 6, satan as antichrist comes at the 6th seal, 6th trump, and 6th vial, 666. The number of antichrist.
Ezekiel chapter 13, God hates the fly away doctrine, the rapture theory. It's false doctrine.
At the 7th trump, Jesus returns to Jerusalem. Antichrist comes 6th trump to Jerusalem, 5 month period, documentation, second thessalonians chapter 2 and revelation chapter 9.
I don't believe in the rapture theory.
The son of perdition is satan, he plays his role as antichrist near future, Jerusalem.
I studied under pastor Arnold murray and dennis, shepherds chapel, for 23 years. I think I know something about this.
Isaiah chapter 29, the mystery of God is hidden from many hirelings. They have spirit of stupor. Very few people have holy spirit.
You need holy spirit to understand mystery of God and meat of God's word.
Romans chapter 11, God's Election have holy spirit. They are predestined, chosen before foundation of the world, ephesians chapter 1 to also document.
God has placed spirit of stupor on many people, documentation, romans chapter 11, Isaiah chapter 6, Matthew chapter 13, Isaiah chapter 29.
I respect other people's beliefs and opinions. I won't sugar coat Gods word. I witness for my Lord Jesus. If no one agrees, it's fine. Jesus will return near future and make neccessary corrections in His kingdom. Take care.

6th seal is Day of the Lord, the signs are the same as Jesus gave in Matthew 24:29-31

but anyway, Matthew 24, Revelation, and the old testament prophets are things that dispensationalists just won't really engage, as they believe they're going to be gone for all of it, so.. I want a non dispy church, but the only others are amillennial, and that's even worse

 

[Sors]

So I am to ignore all the arguing about dispensationalism. I completely disagree with it. However, I also disagree with your premise. It is true that a lot of dispensationalist churches have an "in my opinion unhealthy" obsession with the end times. Its also true that a lot do not. You can find a lot of churches that believe in John Darby's teachings without knowing who he even is. The point is that dispensationalism is an interesting important debate... if that obsession with the end times is absent, there isn't much to worry about. It has been hard for me to accept that the church I should join may not align completely with my theological beliefs. I think it might even be good that those beliefs get challenged. My point is.. Dispensationalism <> (not equal) Always End of the Word. And when it does..find another church.

 

[Jamdoc]

So I am to ignore all the arguing about dispensationalism. I completely disagree with it. However, I also disagree with your premise. It is true that a lot of dispensationalist churches have an "in my opinion unhealthy" obsession with the end times. Its also true that a lot do not. You can find a lot of churches that believe in John Darby's teachings without knowing who he even is. The point is that dispensationalism is an interesting important debate... if that obsession with the end times is absent, there isn't much to worry about. It has been hard for me to accept that the church I should join may not align completely with my theological beliefs. I think it might even be good that those beliefs get challenged. My point is.. Dispensationalism <> (not equal) Always End of the Word. And when it does..find another church.

actually I don't want a church that ignores prophecy, it's 1/3 of the bible.

that and dispensationalism just has some really bad doctrines even not end times related, just the idea of different methods of salvation over time. Like they will teach that the old testament saints were saved by works, we're currently saved by grace, and in "the 7 year tribulation" people will be saved by grace + works, or other such rubbish, they actually teach.. multiple gospels. where I believe there's one gospel and that salvation by grace through faith has always been the way. "Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord", and Lot was considered righteous and saved out of Sodom even after he tried to give his daughters up to be gang raped. Like these men were NOT saved by their works it was all grace, always has been grace (Romans 4, Hebrews 11)

anyway, Dispensationalism is not just 1 doctrine, it and Ammillennialism are actually entire systems of theology with a bunch of interconnected doctrines. That's why I use them even if I'm not specifically referring to their end times positions.

Dispensationalists: literal bible interpretation unless something is explained as a symbol (good), hard line between Israel and the Church (bad), different means of salvation over time (bad), considers parts of the bible not applicable to "the church" (bad)

Amillennialists: allegorical bible interpretation, everything is considered a symbol and interpretation of symbols is not always explained in the text which leads to them representing whatever they feel like ask, 12 Amillennialists and get 12 different interpretations, they may even come up with their own explanations of what a symbol means for something that is explicitly explained in the bible itself by God, or an Angel. (all bad).

I'm looking for literal interpretation unless something is explained as a symbol in the text (I believe the bible interprets itself otherwise understand it as written), all scripture is Inspired and profitable whether for "Israel" or "the Church", prophecy is not to be ignored, it's important, and something that fits Romans 11 as far as Israel and the Church, grafted in, but not replacing.

 

[Jojo Paguio]

I just moved and now I'm having to look for a new church, there is a KJV independent fundamental baptist church literally 2 blocks away from me but.. as is common for protestant denomination churches they are dispensationalist pretribulationists.

ever since meditating on Romans 11 for a significant amount of time, I can't take dispensationalism seriously anymore.
However because of meditating on Romans 11 for a significant amount of time I can't take Ammillenialists who parrot off "we're spiritual Israel, the church replaces Israel" seriously either.

Israel as branches of the olive tree were broken off from unbelief, and we, the wild branches, were grafted into the tree, but Paul says God will lift the blindness from Israel and they will be grafted back in.

So it's not a replacement, nor is it 2 separate plans. John in Revelation 7 makes a distinction between the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel, and the great multitude from every tribe, tongue and nation. I think there's a difference but it's not so hard line as dispensationalists tote.
Why is it so hard to find a church that doesn't swing to either extreme on this issue?

What is the difference of a dispensation and non- dispensation church and why you want a non-dispensation church?

 

[Sorn]

actually I don't want a church that ignores prophecy, it's 1/3 of the bible.

that and dispensationalism just has some really bad doctrines even not end times related, just the idea of different methods of salvation over time. Like they will teach that the old testament saints were saved by works, we're currently saved by grace, and in "the 7 year tribulation" people will be saved by grace + works, or other such rubbish, they actually teach.. multiple gospels. where I believe there's one gospel and that salvation by grace through faith has always been the way. "Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord", and Lot was considered righteous and saved out of Sodom even after he tried to give his daughters up to be gang raped. Like these men were NOT saved by their works it was all grace, always has been grace (Romans 4, Hebrews 11)

anyway, Dispensationalism is not just 1 doctrine, it and Ammillennialism are actually entire systems of theology with a bunch of interconnected doctrines. That's why I use them even if I'm not specifically referring to their end times positions.

Dispensationalists: literal bible interpretation unless something is explained as a symbol (good), hard line between Israel and the Church (bad), different means of salvation over time (bad), considers parts of the bible not applicable to "the church" (bad)

Amillennialists: allegorical bible interpretation, everything is considered a symbol and interpretation of symbols is not always explained in the text which leads to them representing whatever they feel like ask, 12 Amillennialists and get 12 different interpretations, they may even come up with their own explanations of what a symbol means for something that is explicitly explained in the bible itself by God, or an Angel. (all bad).

I'm looking for literal interpretation unless something is explained as a symbol in the text (I believe the bible interprets itself otherwise understand it as written), all scripture is Inspired and profitable whether for "Israel" or "the Church", prophecy is not to be ignored, it's important, and something that fits Romans 11 as far as Israel and the Church, grafted in, but not replacing.

The church is not grafted into Israel. What was grafted in was gentiles that became Jews. The Church is an entirely new creation, we are a new man.

 

[Jojo Paguio]

actually I don't want a church that ignores prophecy, it's 1/3 of the bible.

that and dispensationalism just has some really bad doctrines even not end times related, just the idea of different methods of salvation over time. Like they will teach that the old testament saints were saved by works, we're currently saved by grace, and in "the 7 year tribulation" people will be saved by grace + works, or other such rubbish, they actually teach.. multiple gospels. where I believe there's one gospel and that salvation by grace through faith has always been the way. "Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord", and Lot was considered righteous and saved out of Sodom even after he tried to give his daughters up to be gang raped. Like these men were NOT saved by their works it was all grace, always has been grace (Romans 4, Hebrews 11)

anyway, Dispensationalism is not just 1 doctrine, it and Ammillennialism are actually entire systems of theology with a bunch of interconnected doctrines. That's why I use them even if I'm not specifically referring to their end times positions.

Dispensationalists: literal bible interpretation unless something is explained as a symbol (good), hard line between Israel and the Church (bad), different means of salvation over time (bad), considers parts of the bible not applicable to "the church" (bad)

Amillennialists: allegorical bible interpretation, everything is considered a symbol and interpretation of symbols is not always explained in the text which leads to them representing whatever they feel like ask, 12 Amillennialists and get 12 different interpretations, they may even come up with their own explanations of what a symbol means for something that is explicitly explained in the bible itself by God, or an Angel. (all bad).

I'm looking for literal interpretation unless something is explained as a symbol in the text (I believe the bible interprets itself otherwise understand it as written), all scripture is Inspired and profitable whether for "Israel" or "the Church", prophecy is not to be ignored, it's important, and something that fits Romans 11 as far as Israel and the Church, grafted in, but not replacing.

You'll not get anything because its not the Romans book That is Revelation the end times. They just only promoting Pauls teaching which is related to the vision of John. Christian vs Paulinian I guess what you are looking for is Christian church doctrine and there is no dispensation in christian church only paulinian works on it for debate.