It's really painful to watch the No Fly Zone requests..

[Pavel Mosko]

And turning them down is completely understandable given the Nuclear Escalation possibilities.


I actually think this sort of thing could have been done but the president would have had to come up with his policy well in advance of the actual invasion. IF you actually read what the agreement was for Ukraine giving up it's nukes under Clinton this sort of thing actually should be expected, we promised them back in 1994 we would protect them in exchange for that sacrifice.


If you really look at Ukraine it really looks like we went out our way to lead it on and set it up for what is going on right now. Russia has been vocal about feeling betrayed since 1997 where Gorbachev gave a speech on the US going back on it's 1990 hand shake deal with the Soviet Union for the reunification of Germany. Putin likewise has been growling off and on the last 15 or so years, and shown a willingness to occasionally put his armies where his mouth is, and the last year he was very transparent about his position.

 

[bekkilyn]

And turning them down is completely understandable given then Nuclear Escalation possibilities.


I actually think this sort of thing could have been done but the president would have had to come up with his policy well in advance of the actual invasion. IF you actually read what the agreement was for Ukraine giving up it's nukes under Clinton this sort of thing actually should be expected, we promised them back in 1994 we would protect them in exchange for that sacrifice.


If you really look at Ukraine it really looks like we went out our way to lead it on and set it up for what is going on right now. Russia has been vocal about feeling betrayed since 1997 where Gorbachev gave a speech on the US going back on it's 1990 hand shake deal with the Soviet Union for the reunification of Germany. Putin likewise has been growling off and on the last 15 or so years, and shown a willingness to occasionally put his armies where his mouth is, and the last year he was very transparent about his position.

Based on my admittedly limited knowledge, I don't believe we should have ever encouraged Ukraine into wanting to be part of NATO, UN, EU, or any other organization that made it seems as if it was "joining the west". It would have been better for Ukraine to aspire to neutrality. In that sense they could still have good relations with the west but at the same time not be perceived as a threat by Russia. While I don't at all condone the Russian attacks on Ukraine, I also can't blame Putin for not wanting NATO camps being set up along the Russian border, as just one possibility.

 

[HTacianas]

And turning them down is completely understandable given then Nuclear Escalation possibilities.


I actually think this sort of thing could have been done but the president would have had to come up with his policy well in advance of the actual invasion. IF you actually read what the agreement was for Ukraine giving up it's nukes under Clinton this sort of thing actually should be expected, we promised them back in 1994 we would protect them in exchange for that sacrifice.


If you really look at Ukraine it really looks like we went out our way to lead it on and set it up for what is going on right now. Russia has been vocal about feeling betrayed since 1997 where Gorbachev gave a speech on the US going back on it's 1990 hand shake deal with the Soviet Union for the reunification of Germany. Putin likewise has been growling off and on the last 15 or so years, and shown a willingness to occasionally put his armies where his mouth is, and the last year he was very transparent about his position.

Be careful. The last time someone asked for a no-fly zone we ended up with a full scale illegal bombing of country.

 

[iarwain]

It is sad to see the Ukrainians asking for help like the no-fly zone, when we really can't do that without risking WWIII starting. It's a terrible thing to watch happen to another country, but unfortunately there is only so much we can do without risking the nightmare spreading. If Russia was not a nuclear power, I'm guessing we or the Europeans would be giving them more direct aid.

 

[Aldebaran]

We can almost set up a no-fly zone over Ukraine by arming the Ukrainians with enough Stinger missiles.

 

[Sketcher]

And turning them down is completely understandable given then Nuclear Escalation possibilities.


I actually think this sort of thing could have been done but the president would have had to come up with his policy well in advance of the actual invasion. IF you actually read what the agreement was for Ukraine giving up it's nukes under Clinton this sort of thing actually should be expected, we promised them back in 1994 we would protect them in exchange for that sacrifice.


If you really look at Ukraine it really looks like we went out our way to lead it on and set it up for what is going on right now. Russia has been vocal about feeling betrayed since 1997 where Gorbachev gave a speech on the US going back on it's 1990 hand shake deal with the Soviet Union for the reunification of Germany. Putin likewise has been growling off and on the last 15 or so years, and shown a willingness to occasionally put his armies where his mouth is, and the last year he was very transparent about his position.

They wouldn't have kept them all. They would have sold many of them to whomever.

 

[Aussie Pete]

And turning them down is completely understandable given then Nuclear Escalation possibilities.


I actually think this sort of thing could have been done but the president would have had to come up with his policy well in advance of the actual invasion. IF you actually read what the agreement was for Ukraine giving up it's nukes under Clinton this sort of thing actually should be expected, we promised them back in 1994 we would protect them in exchange for that sacrifice.


If you really look at Ukraine it really looks like we went out our way to lead it on and set it up for what is going on right now. Russia has been vocal about feeling betrayed since 1997 where Gorbachev gave a speech on the US going back on it's 1990 hand shake deal with the Soviet Union for the reunification of Germany. Putin likewise has been growling off and on the last 15 or so years, and shown a willingness to occasionally put his armies where his mouth is, and the last year he was very transparent about his position.

I watched a presentation by a former head of MI6. He confirmed that the British knew that Putin was going to invade. It was just a matter of when.

Politics is all about what is possible and little to do with what is ethical. As a former military person, I would have given Putin an ultimatum, back off or else. If he failed to withdraw from the border, the "or else" has to be put into effect. As you say, the threat of nuclear war throws cold water on the idea. Ukraine should have been given membership of NATO. Putin would not have dared to invade Ukraine. Perhaps Crimea and Donetsk could have been a bone thrown to Putin. Bullies have never been defeated by appeasement. The lessons of WW2 and Hitler's rise have been forgotten, or ignored. And at what a cost.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Edit
==

It appears to be against forum rules to place personal prophecy on this site, but you can have it in your blog. So I have removed it here and linked to what I think of the current state of the conflict here My thoughts on the Ukraine Conflict? | Everybody Matters Ministry

End Edit
=====

 

[Arcangl86]

And turning them down is completely understandable given then Nuclear Escalation possibilities.


I actually think this sort of thing could have been done but the president would have had to come up with his policy well in advance of the actual invasion. IF you actually read what the agreement was for Ukraine giving up it's nukes under Clinton this sort of thing actually should be expected, we promised them back in 1994 we would protect them in exchange for that sacrifice.


If you really look at Ukraine it really looks like we went out our way to lead it on and set it up for what is going on right now. Russia has been vocal about feeling betrayed since 1997 where Gorbachev gave a speech on the US going back on it's 1990 hand shake deal with the Soviet Union for the reunification of Germany. Putin likewise has been growling off and on the last 15 or so years, and shown a willingness to occasionally put his armies where his mouth is, and the last year he was very transparent about his position.

I have read the Budapest Memo. The signatories promise not to attack, but there is no requirement for them to respond in case of attack.

 

[disciple Clint]

Based on my admittedly limited knowledge, I don't believe we should have ever encouraged Ukraine into wanting to be part of NATO, UN, EU, or any other organization that made it seems as if it was "joining the west". It would have been better for Ukraine to aspire to neutrality. In that sense they could still have good relations with the west but at the same time not be perceived as a threat by Russia. While I don't at all condone the Russian attacks on Ukraine, I also can't blame Putin for not wanting NATO camps being set up along the Russian border, as just one possibility.

The way Putin is conducting this invasion makes me think that he wants to take over the country, I doubt that his excuses or justifications are anything other than exactly that. This was on his agenda regardless of what Ukraine did or did not do.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Be careful. The last time someone asked for a no-fly zone we ended up with a full scale illegal bombing of country.

OH I know and that is why I'm not for it regardless of how heart strings are pulled. Basing policy on that sort of thing is dangerous. You need to "count the cost" like that one New Testament saying goes. Which is why I said this thing has to be announced well in advance. This kind of thing is like other relationships like parenting, we actually should be letting people know where we stand way in advance, so them "crossing red lines" is a very conscious act on their part.


Unfortunately the attacking the nuclear plant has sort of made this kind of thing semi viable. Because everybody expected Russia to be doing their regular atrocities and not actually risking a new Chernobyl disater.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I watched a presentation by a former head of MI6. He confirmed that the British knew that Putin was going to invade. It was just a matter of when.

Politics is all about what is possible and little to do with what is ethical. As a former military person, I would have given Putin an ultimatum, back off or else. If he failed to withdraw from the border, the "or else" has to be put into effect. As you say, the threat of nuclear war throws cold water on the idea. Ukraine should have been given membership of NATO. Putin would not have dared to invade Ukraine. Perhaps Crimea and Donetsk could have been a bone thrown to Putin. Bullies have never been defeated by appeasement. The lessons of WW2 and Hitler's rise have been forgotten, or ignored. And at what a cost.

It's interesting with some of Trump's recent statements. He claims based on a recent Fox interview that when he met with both Putin and later Xi in person when talking about Ukraine and later Taiwan that he threatened to attack their capitals if they invaded! I guess it is one of those negotiation type things if you say that in person after exchanging pleasantries and making small talk in person that it is less threatening than doing over the phone. And that sort of thing, it's more extreme than I would have expected. I expected Trump to threaten them in some basic way, and they didn't want to test him.

Is this Trump hyperbole or did he really do that? Well at any rate Trump was one of the few president's Putin did not want to test in spite of all the "Putin's lap dog" propaganda. I actually think the differences of Trump's policies combined with his demeanor is the big difference. Trump gave the dictators some obvious respect which is what their ego's really wanted but his policies actually hurt their long term ambitions, while Joe Biden is just the opposite speaking about "Putin as a thug" meanwhile cutting off our own oil pipeline and letting Putin have his Nord2, trying to curtail oil and gas at home. And of course Biden had to walk back this rhetoric prior to meeting Putin in person because he was going to secretly have to ask for some favors in regards to the coming pullout of Afghanistan.


Biden also was wishy washy on Ukraine, he was only going to do something to Putin "if their is a major invasion" meaning he sort of was OK with a minor one. This kind of reminds me of him handing Putin 18 areas of the US economy that "are off limits for hacking". Does that mean that everything else is fair game? Because that is the indirect message that you get from that.

And then there is Afghanistan....

 

[Hazelelponi]

OH I know and that is why I'm not for it regardless of how heart strings are pulled. Basing policy on that sort of thing is dangerous. You need to "count the cost" like that one New Testament saying goes. Which is why I said this thing has to be announced well in advance. This kind of thing is like other relationships like parenting, we actually should be letting people know where we stand way in advance, so them "crossing red lines" is a very conscious act on their part.


Unfortunately the attacking the nuclear plant has sort of made this kind of thing semi viable. Because everybody expected Russia to be doing their regular atrocities and not actually risking a new Chernobyl disater.

I don't think they plan to create a Chernobyl, they simply took control of it... Any fires were in the admin building and they were put out immediately after Russia had control I believe.

This just gives Russia leverage, the ability to cut off power.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I don't think they plan to create a Chernobyl, they simply took control of it... Any fires were in the admin building and they were put out immediately after Russia had control I believe.

This just gives Russia leverage, the ability to cut off power.

Yeah that is what they are saying. Still shelling a nuclear power plant... not something you want to do. That's like starting a gun fight around a gas station.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Yeah that is what they are saying. Still shelling a nuclear power plant... not something you want to do. That's like starting a gun fight around a gas station.

I actually think this makes Russian control of it more certain... Who else would risk it to take them out?

 

[Aussie Pete]

It's interesting with some of Trump's recent statements. He claims based on a recent Fox interview that when he met with both Putin and later Xi in person when talking about Ukraine and later Taiwan that he threatened to attack their capitals if they invaded! I guess it is one of those negotiation type things if you say that in person after exchanging pleasantries and making small talk in person that it is less threatening than doing over the phone. And that sort of thing, it's more extreme than I would have expected. I expected Trump to threaten them in some basic way, and they didn't want to test him.

Is this Trump hyperbole or did he really do that? Well at any rate Trump was one of the few president's Putin did not want to test in spite of all the "Putin's lap dog" propaganda. I actually think the differences of Trump's policies combined with his demeanor is the big difference. Trump gave the dictators some obvious respect which is what their ego's really wanted but his policies actually hurt their long term ambitions, while Joe Biden is just the opposite speaking about "Putin as a thug" meanwhile cutting off our own oil pipeline and letting Putin have his Nord2, trying to curtail oil and gas at home. And of course Biden had to walk back this rhetoric prior to meeting Putin in person because he was going to secretly have to ask for some favors in regards to the coming pullout of Afghanistan.


Biden also was wishy washy on Ukraine, he was only going to do something to Putin "if their is a major invasion" meaning he sort of was OK with a minor one. This kind of reminds me of him handing Putin 18 areas of the US economy that "are off limits for hacking". Does that mean that everything else is fair game? Because that is the indirect message that you get from that.

And then their is Afghanistan....

As we used to say, a total SNAFU. We need to remind ourselves that God is in control. As He used the Babylonians, Egyptians, Canaanites and so on to chasten Israel, so the Church in the West is bearing the fruit of decades of sloth and compromise with the world. Maybe this will shake some out of their lethargy. I hope so.

 

[Andrewn]

As a former military person, I would have given Putin an ultimatum, back off or else. If he failed to withdraw from the border, the "or else" has to be put into effect. As you say, the threat of nuclear war throws cold water on the idea. Ukraine should have been given membership of NATO. Putin would not have dared to invade Ukraine.

You would have killed us all. Thank God you're not in politics.

 

[Andrewn]

I then added the question, “should we join the war, while seeking the peace table”, the answer was immediate, to that He said yes. I believe that the LORD wants NATO and the West to support Ukraine Militarily, committing troops to the region,

You need to test the spirits. Thank God you're not in politics.

 

[Andrewn]

The way Putin is conducting this invasion makes me think that he wants to take over the country,

I don't think so, otherwise he would have overtaken Kiev by now. One third of the population in Ukraine are Russians. I think Putin wants to take the eastern 1/3 of Ukraine, east of the Dnieper River.

 

[Aussie Pete]

You would have killed us all. Thank God you're not in politics.

I'm sure that people were relieved when Neville Chamberlain came back from his meeting with Hitler. "Peace in our time!" That worked out well, didn't it. I have a slightly personal interest in this. A V2 rocket landed in the suburb where my mother was living. Obviously she survived.