It's really painful to watch the No Fly Zone requests..

[Aussie Pete]

You would have killed us all. Thank God you're not in politics.

Further to my previous remark, if Ukraine had NATO membership, this catastrophe would not have happened.

 

[Andrewn]

It's interesting with some of Trump's recent statements. He claims based on a recent Fox interview that when he met with both Putin and later Xi in person when talking about Ukraine and later Taiwan that he threatened to attack their capitals if they invaded!

I don't believe anything Trump says. He was pulling out of NATO. So, Russia would have just had to walk into Ukraine.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I don't believe anything Trump says. He was pulling out of NATO. So, Russia would have just had to walk into Ukraine.

Not pulling out of NATO, but wanted to shrink the US involvement in it because some countries were paying less than 1% of their budget on defense and the US was doing most of the heavy lifting. Trump was actively lobbying for countries like Germany to put out at least 2% of their budget on defense and with the invasion and the new leader there is actually doing it belatedly.

 

[Fantine]

Based on my admittedly limited knowledge, I don't believe we should have ever encouraged Ukraine into wanting to be part of NATO, UN, EU, or any other organization that made it seems as if it was "joining the west". It would have been better for Ukraine to aspire to neutrality. In that sense they could still have good relations with the west but at the same time not be perceived as a threat by Russia. While I don't at all condone the Russian attacks on Ukraine, I also can't blame Putin for not wanting NATO camps being set up along the Russian border, as just one possibility.

Except that you have Russia, who wants to hang with the big guys and us hampered by a one-dimensional oil-based economy. It sees its customers--Europe--going solar and wind focused.

What can it do? Oh...conquer a country with rich farmland and valuable minerals, including what's needed for electric cars, and a port that can be open all year.

"Neutrality" doesn't stop a predatory invader.

 

[Andrewn]

conquer a country with rich farmland and valuable minerals, including what's needed for electric cars, and a port that can be open all year.

This is why all Ukrainian men cannot leave with their families.

 

[trophy33]

Russia always seen Ukraine as a bumper zone.

During the Napoleonic invasion, during the WW2, the large area of Ukraine gave them enough time to mobilize their armies for defense. Russia is a very large country, so it needs quite a lot of time to mobilize.

So if Ukraine joined NATO, it would take this "needed" (NATO has no interest in attacking Russia) zone from them.

Maybe they would be OK with Ukraine joining the EU, like Finland, though.

 

[TedT]

And turning them down is completely understandable given the Nuclear Escalation possibilities.

The West can't get into a shooting war with
Russia but they could give or lend planes to the Ukraine to fight their own air war.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

The West can't get into a shooting war with
Russia but they could give or lend planes to the Ukraine to fight their own air war.

Yes I was thinking about that. They could do even what was done in the Spanish Civil War where they let any pilots that want to fight do so with a loaned plane under the banner of Ukraine. Not sure how the language barrier thing would work but since so many people in Europe do have English I'm sure they could get to work especially if they the pilots studied some basic Russian and Ukrainian relevant to flying such missions.

 

[Aldebaran]

The West can't get into a shooting war with
Russia but they could give or lend planes to the Ukraine to fight their own air war.

Or maybe just give them drones they could launch strikes with. It would be air power, but would not be as obvious that the US was involved in providing it. Drones would also be less maintenance-intensive that manned fighter jets.

 

[Andrewn]

Russia always seen Ukraine as a bumper zone. During the Napolonic invasion, during the WW2, the large area of Ukraine gave them enough time to mobilize their armies for defense. Russia is a very large country, so it needs quite a lot of time to mobilize.

Before 1991, when is the last time Ukraine was independent with its current borders? As far as know: never!

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Or maybe just give them drones they could launch strikes with. It would be air power, but would not be as obvious that the US was involved in providing it. Drones would also be less maintenance-intensive that manned fighter jets.

I'm not sure how often drones have been used for air to air, compared to ground attack. I'm pretty sure it is a lot easier to do the ground attack role than to try to go after something that can out fly you and has a bigger radar with beyond the horizon capabilities. The only upside I see is the drone is somewhat cheap compared to a real fighter etc. and maybe in some situations drones might be linked to satellites for targeting.

But if drones are used purely for ground attack I suspect the Russians will get really good at shooting them out of the sky with helicopters, lasers and other antidrone weapons, or at least use their SAMs against them.

 

[iarwain]

Not pulling out of NATO, but wanted to shrink the US involvement in it because some countries were paying less than 1% of their budget on defense and the US was doing most of the heavy lifting. Trump was actively lobbying for countries like Germany to put out at least 2% of their budget on defense and with the invasion and the new leader there is actually doing it belatedly.

Another thing Trump has been proven right on, no matter how unlikable he may have been as a leader.

 

[Andrewn]

They could do even what was done in the Spanish Civil War where they let any pilots that want to fight do so with a loaned plane under the banner of Ukraine.

You must be a prophet. Apparently, NATO will be sending Polish airplanes.

 

[chad kincham]

It is sad to see the Ukrainians asking for help like the no-fly zone, when we really can't do that without risking WWIII starting. It's a terrible thing to watch happen to another country, but unfortunately there is only so much we can do without risking the nightmare spreading. If Russia was not a nuclear power, I'm guessing we or the Europeans would be giving them more direct aid.

As Pasaki said and then caught herself, Russia invaded Ukraine when Biden was Vice President, and again while president, establishing a pattern for this president.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

You must be a prophet. Apparently, NATO will be sending Polish airplanes.

Yeah I know about the Migs pledged from a few weeks back. The big thing is not just that but if you can also get trained pilots to go with them. Ukraine's fighter bench was really small before the war started, they had something like 108 jet fighters, that is pretty small for a country that size. And who knows what it is now.



It is estimated that there are between 1.5 and 2.3 million pilots in the world. In the USA, there are 734,911 pilots including civilians and military. Of those: 160,860 are private pilots; 103,879 are commercial pilots; 43,300 are military pilots (19,100 Air Force); and 58,541 are female pilots.

https://www.skytough.com/post/how-m...g to the FAA, there,734,991 pilots in the USA.

 

[Laconia79]

And turning them down is completely understandable given the Nuclear Escalation possibilities.


I actually think this sort of thing could have been done but the president would have had to come up with his policy well in advance of the actual invasion. IF you actually read what the agreement was for Ukraine giving up it's nukes under Clinton this sort of thing actually should be expected, we promised them back in 1994 we would protect them in exchange for that sacrifice.


If you really look at Ukraine it really looks like we went out our way to lead it on and set it up for what is going on right now. Russia has been vocal about feeling betrayed since 1997 where Gorbachev gave a speech on the US going back on it's 1990 hand shake deal with the Soviet Union for the reunification of Germany. Putin likewise has been growling off and on the last 15 or so years, and shown a willingness to occasionally put his armies where his mouth is, and the last year he was very transparent about his position.

For a brief moment Ukraine was the third largest nuclear power on the planet they got rid of them thru the Budapest Memorandum. It is clear that Ukrainians knew they weren't getting the exactly legally binding, really robust security guarantees they sought. But they were told at the time that the United States and Western powers — so certainly at least the United States and Great Britain — take their political commitments really seriously. This is a document signed at the highest level by the heads of state. So the implication was Ukraine would not be left to stand alone and face a threat should it come under one. And today know one wants to actually step forward. Impressivley enough veterans from many countries around the world are going to the Ukraine to help. It seems our vets here and abroad have more backbone than the countries around the world. Putin is evil there is knwo question about it. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. It's how Hitler came to power, how he almost conquered the world. If there was no Pearl Harbor the United States would have been content to burry the heads in the sand and pretend nothing bad is happening. Hitler would have taken europe, Germany would undoubtedly have created the atomic bomb before us and they would have turned there eye to the United States and he would have one. Putin is the next Hitler. The only question here is how many people will he murder before someone puts a bullet in his head

 

[Andrewn]

And today know one wants to actually step forward.

You're living in a world different from the one I watch on TV, internet, and newspapers.

 

[Laconia79]

You're living in a world different from the one I watch on TV, internet, and newspapers.

Dude you picked one sentence, it followed with this: Impressivley enough veterans from many countries around the world are going to the Ukraine to help. It seems our vets here and abroad have more backbone than the countries around the world.

The online word for what you did is trolling and know one likes that