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I am talking specifically about Adam and Eve.I would agree, but I don't think that is what it is saying. It is only him willing it if the person that sins does not have free choice.
And I also question this whole "sin" thing anyway. We are saved and allowed to enter eternity even though we are sinners. I mean by that that although my sin is covered by Christ's blood, it's still there in a very real way. I think there is more to this sin thing then God is letting on. And possible less, regarding how we interpret scripture discussing it. This is why I use the dog analogy.
He is perfect. His plan is not flawed because He is looking for results. Take the example of Jesus being baptized in the river Jordan and a dove assented upon him. Jesus was perfect but we are not so he gets fire and we get fire.I get what you are trying to say. But if God willed sin, then that changes who God is because God tells us He is perfect.
I see God as sovereign of all things and the idea that little Adam could cause all mankind for hundreds of generation fall under the curse of sin and death. Without God's total purpose a major part of it makes God in not control of all things? Before there was a sinner there was a savior for the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth.
It was God’s choose Adam to sin because God has a greater plan. If God did not ordain Adam and Eves sin; then He is not all knowing. It was God lowered Adam from a spirit to a loving soul, a dust man. It was God who made Adam and Eve innocent; they did not do it them selves. It was God who put the tree of good and evil in the garden. It was God who put the devil, a man slayer, a murderer, a liar in the garden; God totally knew what he was doing with Adam and Eve.
Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse.
Perhaps it's better to point out a few issues...
1. In what sense is God in control of all things? Is He controlling me to type this right now? Did He cause 9/11? Is He controlling things in such a way that babies are born then starve to death? People use the expression "God is in control" and it sounds nice, it sounds spiritual, but I don't think people really think through the negative implications.
2. You argue that if God did not ordain sin then He is not all knowing. I agree 100%. He either created evil, preordained rape, preordained torture, preordained the slave trade, etc. and is all-knowing of the entire future OR, He didn't create evil, and is all-knowing of the everything knowable; that is, the settled future.
3. When you say "It was God who put the tree of good and evil in the garden", is this not the notion of God giving them free will?
4. When you say "It was God who put the devil in the garden", how do you know this? Jesus called the devil a thief. We don't know a lot about the devil from the bible, mainly conjecture from passages that seem like they are about him. There are alternative ways to explain the devil being in the garden. For example one idea is that God gave the devil a creative role in the earth before the devil "fell". Because God does not revoke what He gives, the devil has remained in this role even after becoming evil.
5. Saying God cursed the creation is a terrible, terrible, accusation against God. His Character is to avenged in this discussion. He is Holy. He is Good. He is Love. Humanity is often likened to a woman, with Jesus being her husband. Should we believe that Jesus puts evil in us, hurts us, causes us to sin, and then loves us, saves us, and heals us? What kind of relationship is this? I will never believe this.
So what power other than God do you believe should be controlling all theses evils you mentioned above?Perhaps it's better to point out a few issues...
1. In what sense is God in control of all things? Is He controlling me to type this right now? Did He cause 9/11? Is He controlling things in such a way that babies are born then starve to death? People use the expression "God is in control" and it sounds nice, it sounds spiritual, but I don't think people really think through the negative implications.
2. You argue that if God did not ordain sin then He is not all knowing. I agree 100%. He either created evil, preordained rape, preordained torture, preordained the slave trade, etc. and is all-knowing of the entire future OR, He didn't create evil, and is all-knowing of the everything knowable; that is, the settled future.
3. When you say "It was God who put the tree of good and evil in the garden", is this not the notion of God giving them free will?
4. When you say "It was God who put the devil in the garden", how do you know this? Jesus called the devil a thief. We don't know a lot about the devil from the bible, mainly conjecture from passages that seem like they are about him. There are alternative ways to explain the devil being in the garden. For example one idea is that God gave the devil a creative role in the earth before the devil "fell". Because God does not revoke what He gives, the devil has remained in this role even after becoming evil.
5. Saying God cursed the creation is a terrible, terrible, accusation against God. His Character is to avenged in this discussion. He is Holy. He is Good. He is Love. Humanity is often likened to a woman, with Jesus being her husband. Should we believe that Jesus puts evil in us, hurts us, causes us to sin, and then loves us, saves us, and heals us? What kind of relationship is this? I will never believe this.
Absolutely all things God has control of.
So what power other than God do you believe should be controlling all theses evils you mentioned above?
Chapter and verse? Free agent? Man is not free. I do not believe that the Bible anywhere teaches that man is a free moral agent. That teaching is a figment of the imagination of the harlot church system. In fact, the Bible teaches the exact opposite. It tells us, "It is NOT of him that WILLETH or of him that runneth, but of GOD that showeth mercy" (Rom. 9:16). The biggest lie that ever was told in human language is that all men are born free moral agents. They are not born free. Be honest! Ask, Is that child free who is born in the slums; the child of a harlot and a whoremonger; a child without a name, who grows up with the brand of shame upon his brow from the beginning; who grows up amidst vice, and never knows virtue until it is steeped in vice? Is such a child a FREE MORAL AGENT, free to act intelligently, as he chooses, upon all moral questions? Is that child free who grows up amidst falsehood, and never knows what truth is until it is steeped in lies; that never knows what honesty is until it is steeped in crime? Is that child born free? Is that child free who is born in a communist land and in a godless home; who is told by its government and taught by its teachers that there is no God in heaven, and never knows even a verse of Scripture until it is steeped in unbelief and infidelity? Is that child born free? Is he a free moral agent? It is a sham, a delusion, and a snare to say it. It is not true. All are not born into this world as free moral agents. The truth is much stronger than that, for the fact is, that NONE are free moral agents!Do you believe God controls the devil? Do you believe everything the devil does is part of God's perfect plan? Didn't Jesus address this in Mark 3:25?
God created free-agents (I use the word agents to include humans, angels, spirits etc.). An agent is free if it has the potential to choose against the Will of God, that is, the potential to do evil. Evil is born of free agents, not of God. The value of a free-agent is worth more than the potential evil they might cause. There was a real and probable possibility that all agents would choose good. After the devil chose evil, He began to tempt and deceive other free agents. God is not responsible for evil in a direct sense, only in so far as He created the potential for it by creating free-agents.
I am talking specifically about Adam and Eve.
If God willed for them to sin, then God willed that mankind be separated from Himself.
Chapter and verse? Free agent? Man is not free. I do not believe that the Bible anywhere teaches that man is a free moral agent. That teaching is a figment of the imagination of the harlot church system.
In fact, the Bible teaches the exact opposite. It tells us, "It is NOT of him that WILLETH or of him that runneth, but of GOD that showeth mercy" (Rom. 9:16).
The biggest lie that ever was told in human language is that all men are born free moral agents. They are not born free. Be honest! Ask, Is that child free who is born in the slums; the child of a harlot and a whoremonger; a child without a name, who grows up with the brand of shame upon his brow from the beginning; who grows up amidst vice, and never knows virtue until it is steeped in vice? Is such a child a FREE MORAL AGENT, free to act intelligently, as he chooses, upon all moral questions? Is that child free who grows up amidst falsehood, and never knows what truth is until it is steeped in lies; that never knows what honesty is until it is steeped in crime? Is that child born free? Is that child free who is born in a communist land and in a godless home; who is told by its government and taught by its teachers that there is no God in heaven, and never knows even a verse of Scripture until it is steeped in unbelief and infidelity? Is that child born free? Is he a free moral agent? It is a sham, a delusion, and a snare to say it. It is not true. All are not born into this world as free moral agents. The truth is much stronger than that, for the fact is, that NONE are free moral agents!
I already quote Job 1
Job 1:8And the LORD said to Satan, "Have you(N) considered my(O) servant Job , that there is none like him on the earth,(P) a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?" 9Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "Does Job fear God for no reason? 10Have you not put(Q) a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have(R) blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11But(S) stretch out your hand and(T) touch all that he has, and he will(U) curse you(V) to your face." 12And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand." So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.
God is in control of all things; sure He limited what Satan could do; for a reason because God is always in complete control of all things to include Satan. But it was God who was the one who introduced Satan to Job “Have you(N) considered my(O) servant Job”. It was God who took down the hedge from around Job so Satan to do his work on job. It was the process of tribulation and trial God was after; to prove Job.
If this does not prove Satan has no power other than God than please chapter and verse.
Yes man has a freewill to do evil but he does not have a freewill to save himself. Adam was cursed with sin and death. God is God and all evil and good is in His control. Did not god plant the tree of Good and Evil? No i believe God is full fulling His plan and to take the control of evil out of God's plan means there is a greater power than God who controls all evil? So who controls evil? If they control evil and God has no say than God is not the Lord of lords.Either:
1. Man is free to choose to do evil, OR
2. Man is forced to do evil.
Is there any other option? If you agree with (2) then God is literally doing evil. If He is in control in the way you say He is, then He is the one doing the evil. Do you believe God is the one committing the crimes and evil acts that are occurring the world today?
Satan could do none of this until God let Satan have his way. Satan does not control the earth; he may be the god of the earth but he is not God of the earth. Read your Bible:Very good to bring this into the discussion. Job is one of the most misunderstood books in the bible. Please reconsider how you read these two verses where Satan says to God:
stretch out your hand and touch all that he (Job) has, and he will curse you to your face.
And God replies:
Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.
God states the reality of the situation. The earth was in the hands of the devil from Adam through to Jesus as seen in John 12:31:
The time for judging this world has come, when Satan, the ruler of this world, will be cast out.
God does not hand Job over to the devil. He explains that Job is already in Satan's hands and that the hedge God had around Job has pretty much gone except for sparing Job's life.
Yes man has a freewill to do evil but he does not have a freewill to save himself.
So who controls evil?
No one is forcing anyone to do good or evil its called the curse of sin and death. It is carnal mans nature to do good and evil remember Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which God planted and ordain the fall.Good, we agree man has freewill to do evil. So if man has free will to do evil, then it is not God forcing Him to do evil by controlling him.
I answered this. Agents who choose to do evil.
No one is forcing anyone to do good or evil its called the curse of sin and death. It is carnal mans nature to do good and evil remember Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which God planted and ordain the fall.
So these agents have ALL power over evil and God is helpless to control this evil?
I thought God was omnipotent, omniscience, omniscient, omnipotence, omnipresent? What a weak and helpless god.
This is really confusing.Chapter and verse? Free agent? Man is not free. I do not believe that the Bible anywhere teaches that man is a free moral agent. That teaching is a figment of the imagination of the harlot church system. In fact, the Bible teaches the exact opposite. It tells us, "It is NOT of him that WILLETH or of him that runneth, but of GOD that showeth mercy" (Rom. 9:16). The biggest lie that ever was told in human language is that all men are born free moral agents. They are not born free. Be honest! Ask, Is that child free who is born in the slums; the child of a harlot and a whoremonger; a child without a name, who grows up with the brand of shame upon his brow from the beginning; who grows up amidst vice, and never knows virtue until it is steeped in vice? Is such a child a FREE MORAL AGENT, free to act intelligently, as he chooses, upon all moral questions? Is that child free who grows up amidst falsehood, and never knows what truth is until it is steeped in lies; that never knows what honesty is until it is steeped in crime? Is that child born free? Is that child free who is born in a communist land and in a godless home; who is told by its government and taught by its teachers that there is no God in heaven, and never knows even a verse of Scripture until it is steeped in unbelief and infidelity? Is that child born free? Is he a free moral agent? It is a sham, a delusion, and a snare to say it. It is not true. All are not born into this world as free moral agents. The truth is much stronger than that, for the fact is, that NONE are free moral agents!
I personally disagree that the Tree of Knowlede was a metaphor.Agree, except for the bit about "God planted and ordain the fall". God planted the tree is a metaphor for God giving free will to mankind. Man was not ordained to sin but sinned of his own volition.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean sorry. But we have the power to do evil or to do good. Doing good is where God is the expert. We receive His Spirit into our hearts and work with Him to rebuke all the evil and establish His Kingdom in the earth. We are His soldiers, His workmanship, His pots, His vessels, and He has given us the authority to take back the dominion that was lost. This is why Jesus prayed "Your Kingdom come, Your will be done" because God's kingdom is not operating in all places on the earth, and His will is not being done in all places on the earth. God is helpless to control the evil and needs to partner with us. This is how He set things up to preserve free will. This is why prayer is important. This is why we are important. This is why we need Him. To undo the work of the devil. Why do we pray if He is already in control of everything? Is it just for show?
God is omnipotent. God is omniscient (He knows all there is to know). God is omnipresent. He is not weak, He is Mighty. He sees that we are valuable.
I’m not seeing what you are seeing in Romans 8:20Show me freewill when it come to the Garden of Eden and Adam? You assume this is a fact because you have been taught it and it is what mainstream Christianity believes. You say God planting the tree is a metaphor for freewill. I truly believe in metaphors in scripture but they need to be based on substance not assumption. Example a goat is a clean animal according to the law so it cannot be symbolic of the loss.
Genesis never revers to freewill in creation but the Bible does and this is the point that negates your belief it was all up to little carnal Adam.
(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have.
God cannot be omnipotent, omniscience, omniscient, omnipotence, omnipresent if He only controls good. All the power of evil He is helpless to control if what you say is true. That was omnipotent means having virtually unlimited authority or influence and om·ni·scient having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight possessed of universal or complete knowledge.
According to your belief some unknown agent has all this power and God is totally helpless when it comes to evil.
and:
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Calamity is just another name for evil
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