It is funny, "sodomy" is not a sin listed in Scripture.

now faith · Oct 1, 2013

SwordofPeace said:
those who have the Holy spirit don't need to debate these things, the angels communicate it mind to mind, telepathicly. they don't need to debate with you what is evil and why it's evil. The devil just wants to talk about ungodly sexual acts as a way to urinate on Christians.

2 Corinthians 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

We have stood by on our moral self righteousness for 50 years.

Talking about all the sin,yet not confronting it.

All immorality has become stronger and stronger because our self righteousness,looks upon others as sub humans,not worthy of grace.

I think you have it backwards some Christians have be urinating against a wall,and they stink.

Alithis · Oct 2, 2013

tundrawolf said:
Because he wishes to engage in this aberrant behavior without consequence, the same reason non Christians lash out at the Gospel, they want to remain in their sins.

To be honest, I expected this sort of reply from non- Christians attempting to justify their lusts, and refusing to accept the reality of what it does to the vast majority of women out there, but to see it from a "Christian" it really cuts deep. But, the church today has become so watered down and polluted it really doesn't surprise me.

Just saddens me.

well do not be sad ,you could not assumed more incorrectly.
However lets leave it up to the ladies to testify on their own behalf
because likening sodomy to marital coupling is chalk and cheese - so to speak .

savedbyJesus7 · Oct 2, 2013

The sin listed and condemned is homosexuality.
However you probably remember that Sodom and Gomorrah were the only two cities destroyed by God with fire from heaven due to the overwhelming wrath of God. It's obvious that sodomy is detestable to God.

now faith · Oct 2, 2013

savedbyJesus7 said:
The sin listed and condemned is homosexuality.
However you probably remember that Sodom and Gomorrah were the only two cities destroyed by God with fire from heaven due to the overwhelming wrath of God. It's obvious that sodomy is detestable to God.

So is the shedding of innocent blood,as in abortion.
Yet that does not stir the hate that homosexuality does.

The world proclaims a woman has the power of life and death over her un born.
Yet we allowed roe v wade

RDKirk · Oct 2, 2013

The wrong question is being asked.

In fact, "Is X a sin?" is always the wrong question.

All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. -- 1 Corinthians 10

Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. -- Romans 12

The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,
“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”

But we have the mind of Christ. -- 1 Corinthians 2

Paul is trying to raise the bar, he's trying to mature us beyond the baby-Christian stage of the written code.

When I was a young troop in the military, my supervisors had to direct me in every detail. When I had been in long enough to have developed what we called a "military mind," I did not need that direction. I knew the "military way" of doing all things.

The right question is not "Is X a sin?" That is just asking for a written code, and the written code does not have life in it.

The correct questions are: "Does this edify me as a Christian? Is it beneficial to the Body of Christ? Is it good stewardship of the resources Christ has entrusted to me--does it make a profit for Christ? Does it strengthen my brothers and sisters in Christ? Is it noble? Is it pure? Is it of good repute? Does it bring me closer to God?"

We have to put on the mind of Christ and raise the bar of our thinking. We're not looking for the least we can do to stay in line, we're looking for the best we can do.

Fenny the Fox · Oct 2, 2013

tundrawolf said:
I'll tell you the truth as a man who formerly engaged in homosexual behavior.

The recipient of anal sex is going to be in pain, regardless of the amount of lubrication used. Lubrication must always be used, and in large amounts.

Due to the way the anus muscle structure was designed, it never was created to have *anything* penetrate it. The pain, and even agony from it being penetrated is a warning from God.

Virgins experience pain during initial sex, is much less intense, and does not last- it goes away, never to return.

Anal sex is always painful, until your muscles are so stretched out that the recipient no longer feels pain.

I will be blunt.

A rather simple adage comes to mind "if it hurts, you're doing it wrong." And this is most definitely the case.
The depiction you give (on that front) is rather warped and untrue. If that was truly your experience, then whoever you happened to be with was an idiot.

Alithis · Oct 3, 2013

now faith said:
So is the shedding of innocent blood,as in abortion.
Yet that does not stir the hate that homosexuality does.

The world proclaims a woman has the power of life and death over her un born.
Yet we allowed roe v wade

you must not assume that those that speak of righteousness, do so in an attitude of hate .
it is not hate but Love to speak the truth ..it is not the temporal state of humanity we care about but the eternal state of each soul . that is the bigger picture . we must not and cannot allow people to spread any message that suggests that ANY one particular sin is no longer a sin as that allows for self deception which leads to death .. and that death is eternal .

true Christianity is uncompromising both in its love and in its stance - in the end it will be the one singular truth that stands alone and remain uncompromising through death .

Jesus said we will be both hated and murdered for his name sake .. and we shall . but for all that we will not ever compromise or accept any suggestion that ANY sin is self excusable .
love and absolute truth are intermingled ..one cannot exist without the Other .

the lord Jesus showed us this -both speaking uncompromising truth and at the same time ..laying down his life for the many.

savedbyJesus7 · Oct 7, 2013

RDKirk said:
The wrong question is being asked.

In fact, "Is X a sin?" is always the wrong question.

All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. -- 1 Corinthians 10

This is a perversion of the scripture taking the Bible entirely out of context! Shame on you!

You can't take one verse like that!! The Bible explicitly states certain things are not lawful, under any circumstances!

If you read the whole chapter you'll see you are completely wrong - the Bible is not saying!! that homosexuality or other sins is ok!! In fact, the verse is about not committing sexual sin!!

1 Corinthians 6:9-20

9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Sexual Immorality

12 "Everything is permissible for me"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"--but I will not be mastered by anything. 13 "Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"--but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." 17 But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit. 18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

Additionally, the quote you directly quoted, which is 1 Corinthians 10:28, you said it entirely out of context - here Paul was referring to the eating of "unclean" foods, an issue with Israel during that time.

1 Corinthians 10:23-33

23 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive. 24 No one should seek their own good, but the good of others.

25 Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26 for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.”[f]

27 If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28 But if someone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, both for the sake of the one who told you and for the sake of conscience. 29 I am referring to the other person’s conscience, not yours. For why is my freedom being judged by another’s conscience? 30 If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?

31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33 even as I try to please everyone in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.

RDKirk · Oct 7, 2013

savedbyJesus7 said:
This is a perversion of the scripture taking the Bible entirely out of context! Shame on you!

You can't take one verse like that!! The Bible explicitly states certain things are not lawful, under any circumstances!

If you read the whole chapter you'll see you are completely wrong - the Bible is not saying!! that homosexuality or other sins is ok!! In fact, the verse is about not committing sexual sin!!

I certainly didn't say that. Take a deep breath and re-read what I did say--and you will see that you were wrong in trying to shame me.

I said we must have the mind of Christ.

Would anyone who had the mind of Christ think any "sin" was okay?

My point is that someone who had the mind of Christ would know the will of God in what he should do...and by doing God's will, he would not sin.

Asking "Is X a sin" is exactly what the servant with one talent did. He was so terrified of doing the wrong thing--losing the Master's money--that he failed to do the right thing--make the Master more money.

A person who concentrates only on not committing a "sin" is only trying to find a hole for his talent. He's not trying to go out and invest the talent--he's not putting on the mind of the Master to determine what the Master's will is for him to do...not "not do."

Asking "Is X a sin" is only looking for a law, and the law never brings life, only death. Ask instead, "What should I do?" Consume yourself with what you should do, not what you should not do.

savedbyJesus7 · Oct 7, 2013

RDKirk said:
I certainly didn't say that. Take a deep breath and re-read what I did say--and you will see that you were wrong in trying to shame me.

I said we must have the mind of Christ.

Would anyone who had the mind of Christ think any "sin" was okay?

My point is that someone who had the mind of Christ would know the will of God in what he should do...and by doing God's will, he would not sin.

Asking "Is X a sin" is exactly what the servant with one talent did. He was so terrified of doing the wrong thing--losing the Master's money--that he failed to do the right thing--make the Master more money.

A person who concentrates only on not committing a "sin" is only trying to find a hole for his talent. He's not trying to go out and invest the talent--he's not putting on the mind of the Master to determine what the Master's will is for him to do...not "not do."

Asking "Is X a sin" is only looking for a law, and the law never brings life, only death. Ask instead, "What should I do?" Consume yourself with what you should do, not what you should not do.

Just so long as you don't think that it's "ok" to sin for whatever reason. It's not!

Also, what you do or don't do is not going to affect your salvation. I know you didn't say the contrary, just clarifying.

RDKirk · Oct 7, 2013

savedbyJesus7 said:
Just so long as you don't think that it's "ok" to sin for whatever reason. It's not!

What is a sin? Really. What is a sin?

A sin is failing to do every single thing today that God would have you do. A sin is not living precisely the life Christ would have led today, if you were He. Jesus said, "I only do what I see my Father do."

Can we say that we only do what we see the Father do? Anything less than that is sin.

Paul said, "Everything is permissible to me, but not everything is beneficial!"

Then do we ask the question for everything...is this beneficial?

"Is it a sin for me to get a tattoo?" That's the wrong question.

No, the right question is, "Is it beneficial to the Lord for me to get a tattoo?" "Does it bring me closer to the Lord to get a tattoo?" "Does edify a fellow Christian for me to get a tattoo?" "Does it spread the gospel for me to get a tattoo?"

Did I put on the shoes today that Christ would have had me wear? Did I even check with Christ before I bought those shoes? Did I check with Christ before I decided I even needed another pair of shoes? (I like shoes--I inherited that gene from my mother.)

This is a much, much, much higher proposition than merely asking "Is this a sin?"

And it exposes our real shortcomings.

savedbyJesus7 · Oct 7, 2013

RDKirk said:
What is a sin? Really. What is a sin?

A sin is failing to do every single thing today that God would have you do. A sin is not living precisely the life Christ would have led today, if you were He. Jesus said, "I only do what I see my Father do."

Can we say that we only do what we see the Father do? Anything less than that is sin.

Paul said, "Everything is permissible to me, but not everything is beneficial!"

Then do we ask the question for everything...is this beneficial?

"Is it a sin for me to get a tattoo?" That's the wrong question.

No, the right question is, "Is it beneficial to the Lord for me to get a tattoo?" "Does it bring me closer to the Lord to get a tattoo?" "Does edify a fellow Christian for me to get a tattoo?" "Does it spread the gospel for me to get a tattoo?"

Did I put on the shoes today that Christ would have had you wear? Did I even check with Christ before you bought those shoes? Did I check with Christ before you decided you even needed another pair of shoes?

This is a much, much, much higher proposition than merely asking "Is this a sin?"

And it exposes our real shortcomings.

Well that's right, it's a given. When you ask, "what is a sin?", you're asking, "Is this something God wants me to do?"

Although yes, sometimes it's useful to say it the long way to remind us of what it means by "sin".

The context of the verse wasn't referring to obvious sinful activity like prostitution or murder. Obviously those are bad and you shouldn't do them (they aren't even "permissible" - the Bible was not referring to such things when it says "everything is permissible").

The verse is regarding more cultural "rights and wrongs", like a Jew eating kosher meat, or an American buying a new iphone.

Is it OK to only eat kosher meat? Sure., Is it beneficial? Well you aren't obligated to do so anymore. Not from a spiritual perspective.

Should you buy a new iphone? Is it beneficial and glorifying God to spend $500 to $800 on a shiny precious metal graven image that you will worship every day by investing your time and energy and passion into that device instead of unto God? If the answer is no, then you should not buy the new iPhone.

wow makes me think maybe my tablet is an idol!! aahhh! I need to pray about this one...

RDKirk · Oct 7, 2013

At some point, Paul must have said or said something like, "Everything is permissible." At least that's the idea the Corinthians--in their still-carnal understanding--got from what he said.

If Paul said to them about the law what he said to the Romans, it's not hard to see them getting that idea--that's why Paul gets accused of antinomialism.

But Paul wants us to renew our minds into conformance with the mind of Christ, and in that way we will determine the will of God.

An adult tells a child, "Stay out of the street" because the child cannot determine when the street can be crossed safely. But when the child matures and has the mind of an adult, he can determine when the street can be crossed safely.

When I did a lot of bicycling, I learned an important rule: When you see an obstacle in your path, do not fixate on the obstacle. If you fixate on the obstacle, you will run right into it because you're not seeing the path around it. Instead, focus on the path around the obstacle, because that's the way you want to go.

But I believe Paul was really trying to focus on the path instead of the obstacle.

savedbyJesus7 · Oct 7, 2013

savedbyJesus7 said:
1 Corinthians 6:9-20

9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Sexual Immorality

12 "Everything is permissible for me"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"--but I will not be mastered by anything. 13 "Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"--but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." 17 But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit. 18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

1 Corinthians 10:23-33

23 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive. 24 No one should seek their own good, but the good of others.

25 Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26 for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.”[f]

27 If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28 But if someone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, both for the sake of the one who told you and for the sake of conscience. 29 I am referring to the other person’s conscience, not yours. For why is my freedom being judged by another’s conscience? 30 If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?

31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33 even as I try to please everyone in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.

See this ^

Also the kid and street analogy is a bad one because many things are never beneficial. Like for example prostitution and rape.

RDKirk · Oct 7, 2013

savedbyJesus7 said:
See this ^

Also the kid and street analogy is a bad one because many things are never beneficial. Like for example prostitution and rape.

And those things that are never beneficial, the mind of Christ will tell you.

But an adult can calculate the benefits and consequences, and thus understands as an adult rather than as a child.

The law said, "Do no work on the Sabbath." But is it acceptable for a doctor to work on the Sabbath? Is it acceptable for a farmer to feed his animals on the Sabbath? Is it acceptable to walk a mile to take food to a hungry widow on the Sabbath?

The Pharisees would have said no to all of them--and there wasn't a specific part of the Mosaic Law that explicitly permitted it.

The child needs a rule. The adult strives to understand what God wants and to apply that to the situation. That's done by renewing his mind to be conformed to Christ rather than to the world.

savedbyJesus7 · Oct 7, 2013

RDKirk said:
And those things that are never beneficial, the mind of Christ will tell you.

But an adult can calculate the benefits and consequences, and thus understands as an adult rather than as a child.

The law said, "Do no work on the Sabbath." But is it acceptable for a doctor to work on the Sabbath? Is it acceptable for a farmer to feed his animals on the Sabbath? Is it acceptable to walk a mile to take food to a hungry widow on the Sabbath?

The Pharisees would have said no to all of them--and there wasn't a specific part of the Mosaic Law that explicitly permitted it.

The child needs a rule. The adult strives to understand what God wants and to apply that to the situation. That's done by renewing his mind to be conformed to Christ rather than to the world.

As far as the Sabbath thing, see what Jesus did and said. He directly answered your question:

Mark 2:23-27

Jesus Is Lord of the Sabbath

23 One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”

25 He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26 In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”

27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

abacabb3 · Oct 7, 2013

sex outside of marriage is fornication. Gays can't marry. Any homosexual sex is therefore fornication.

Now, if someone has homosexual proclivities and simply abstains (just as married couples must abstain from adultery), then I think that's what is important.

RDKirk · Oct 7, 2013

savedbyJesus7 said:
As far as the Sabbath thing, see what Jesus did and said. He directly answered your question:

Well, of course I know that, which is why referenced those specific questions--and the Pharisee's response to them--because those were, indeed, specific issues raised to Jesus.

If the Pharisees had had "the mind of Christ" they would have come to the same conclusions as Christ of what to do, rather than falling back on the Law of what not to do.

It is funny, "sodomy" is not a sin listed in Scripture.

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