Issues in Scienceville.

[Nabobalis]

And WHAT is a non-creationist Christian??

Christians who do not read the bible literately and take the world to be 6000 to 10000 years old etc (i.e the vast majority of Christian sects)

 

[Inan3]

Christians who do not read the bible literately and take the world to be 6000 to 10000 years old etc (i.e the vast majority of Christian sects)

So in other words they're not really very good Christians, IF Christians at all. Jesus took God's word literally so why don't they? Shouldn't a disciple FOLLOW what their teacher teaches? They aren't very good followers of Jesus now are they? It only makes sense that a disciple will do what their master tells them or they really AREN'T disciples.

Jesus was a creationist. He taught this.

Mar 10:6But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

There was no abiogenesis going on in that statement. He didn't believe in that. He believed... in the beginning God made them male and female... Adam and Eve!! Plain and simple. He believed in Genesis.

Today if He spoke with these so called Christians you speak of, He would probably say "haven't you read what I said?" or "haven't you read Genesis?"

Mat 19:4 And He answered and said unto them, "Have ye not read, that He which made them at the beginning made them male and female,"

Then He would ask,

Luk 6:46 Why do you keep on saying that I am your Lord, when you refuse to do what I say?
Luk 6:47 Anyone who comes and listens to me and obeys me
Luk 6:48 is like someone who dug down deep and built a house on solid rock. When the flood came and the river rushed against the house, it was built so well that it didn't even shake.

Luk 6:40 The disciple is not greater than his master, but everyone whose learning is complete will be like his master.


Let me tell you what the Bible says a Christian is. A Christian is a "disciple" or "follower" of Jesus Christ. That's easy. Plainly written. Don't need an interpreter for that. A child could understand that. So why can't people get that just because a person SAYS they are a Christian does not mean they ARE a Christian. You have to be a FOLLOWER of Christ to be a Christian. You know ... follow what He teaches.

Act 11:26 And when he had come across him, he took him to Antioch. And they were with the church there for a year, teaching the people; and the disciples were first given the name of Christians in Antioch.


But I guess you were right on one point these people do not read the Bible... literally!!

 

[AV1611VET]

I too would like to know what a non-creationist Christian is.

Even theistic evolutionists believe in creation.

 

[Gracchus]

So in other words they're not really very good Christians, IF Christians at all.

For the purposes of this forum, to avoid confusion, why don't we agree that "Christians' are those who subscribe to the Nicene Creed or the Apostles' Creed. Neither of those even mentions the Bible.

Jesus took God's word literally so why don't they?

Did he take every word of the Torah literally? Where did he say so?

Shouldn't a disciple FOLLOW what their teacher teaches?

Unless they have reason to think the teacher got some things wrong.

They aren't very good followers of Jesus now are they? It only makes sense that a disciple will do what their master tells them or they really AREN'T disciples.

So do most Christians return good for evil? Give to everyone who asks? Take no thought for tomorrow? Pray privately?

Jesus was a creationist. He taught this.

Mar 10:6But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

There was no abiogenesis going on in that statement. He didn't believe in that. He believed... in the beginning God made them male and female... Adam and Eve!! Plain and simple. He believed in Genesis.

So what? He is allowed to be wrong about things.

Today if He spoke with these so called Christians you speak of, He would probably say "haven't you read what I said?" or "haven't you read Genesis?"

To which today's Christians could reply, "haven't you read anything at all about modern cosmolgy, geology, psychology or biology? But in any case, he didn't say to read what he said. He didn't say to read the Bible. Most of those he spoke to couldn't read. He told them to do what he said: Forgive, give, don't make a show of your piety, forgive, don't be judgemental, forgive, use a little sense and mercy when applying the law, don't cast stones unless you are sinless, don't worry about tomorrow, forgive.

Then He would ask,

Luk 6:46 Why do you keep on saying that I am your Lord, when you refuse to do what I say?
Luk 6:47 Anyone who comes and listens to me and obeys me
Luk 6:48 is like someone who dug down deep and built a house on solid rock. When the flood came and the river rushed against the house, it was built so well that it didn't even shake.

Luk 6:40 The disciple is not greater than his master, but everyone whose learning is complete will be like his master.

And if you do what your alledged master says, it doesn't matter whether you believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible.

Let me tell you what the Bible says a Christian is. A Christian is a "disciple" or "follower" of Jesus Christ. That's easy. Plainly written. Don't need an interpreter for that. A child could understand that. So why can't people get that just because a person SAYS they are a Christian does not mean they ARE a Christian. You have to be a FOLLOWER of Christ to be a Christian. You know ... follow what He teaches.

Well according to the rules of this forum, at least, to be a Christian, it is necessary to suscribe to the Nicene or the Apostles' Creed. If you restrict the lable to those who follow what Jesus taught, who do what he said to do, you could probably count the number of Christians in the world at any given time on one hand.

Act 11:26 And when he had come across him, he took him to Antioch. And they were with the church there for a year, teaching the people; and the disciples were first given the name of Christians in Antioch.

Well there you go! Christians are not the disciples of Jesus. They are the disciples of Paul.

But I guess you were right on one point these people do not read the Bible... literally!!

And neither did the followers of Jesus, most of whom couldn't read.

 

[Pachomius]

Originally posted by Gracchus; 57588291

For the purposes of this forum, etc. etc. etc.

[ And on and on without any main thrust. ]

​

Now, will you just tell readers here what you are driving at?

Or you are just going to throw stones in all directions just to disrupt the thread and distract people who do want to read some definite direction the thread is into?

Please choose one issue and then narrow down the issue into a very specific direction, then we will get to exchange thoughts profitably for everyone here who want to read something that is well narrowed down, instead of you throwing stones in all directions to no specific purpose but just so that you disrupt the thread.


I am trying to determine what is your #1 purpose in writing, so far it seems to be throwing stones in all directions just to disrupt the thread you go into.


Tell me if I am mistaken, you are an atheist, yes, no?

Okay yes, now what particular issue do you want to espouse in your atheist heart and mind, and you want the rest of mankind to know about, so that mankind can benefit from your contribution in their life and deeds, thus they will be better off?

For example, you can go into showing mankind that there is no design in the whole realm of existence, and you will concede that at most it is all appearance of design, including and starting with the nose in your face, that there is no design by which it stays in your face instead of falling off and dropping to the ground, and that appearance of design is enough to keep your nose in your face.


Otherwise you are into throwing stones in all directions to show what? that you are so what?




Pachomius

 

[Gracchus]

Originally posted by Gracchus; 57588291
For the purposes of this forum, etc. etc. etc....


And on and on without any main thrust. ]

The main thrust was that you should define your terms. On this forum, a Christian is one who subscribes to at least one of the two Creeds cited, neither of which even mentions the Bible.

Or you are just going to throw stones in all directions just to disrupt the thread and distract people who do want to read some definite direction the thread is into?

I haven't thrown any stones at all. I haven't, for instance, called you a liar.

Please choose one issue and then narrow down the issue into a very specific direction, then we will get to exchange thoughts profitably for everyone here who want to read something that is well narrowed down, instead of you throwing stones in all directions to no specific purpose but just so that you disrupt the thread.

I am trying to determine what is your #1 purpose in writing, so far it seems to be throwing stones in all directions just to disrupt the thread you go into.

You seem to have stones on the brain, or is it merely rocks in your … No, I won't go there.

Tell me if I am mistaken, you are an atheist, yes, no?

I am a panentheist. Does that make you wrong?

Okay yes, now what particular issue do you want to espouse in your atheist heart and mind, and you want the rest of mankind to know about, so that mankind can benefit from your contribution in their life and deeds, thus they will be better off?

You first!

For example, you can go into showing mankind that there is no design in the whole realm of existence, and you will concede that at most it is all appearance of design, including and starting with the nose in your face, that there is no design by which it stays in your face instead of falling off and dropping to the ground, and that appearance of design is enough to keep your nose in your face.

Well, by the laws of genetics, I was born with a nose. I don't know what that has to do with “Issues in Scienceville”.

Otherwise you are into throwing stones in all directions to show what? that you are so what?

You are becoming incoherent. Perhaps you should take a break.

 

[Pachomius]

Originally posted by Gracchus; 57588849

[...]

I am a panentheist. ...

[...]


​

Pleased to meet a panentheist.

So, you are not an atheist, but you do not like Christianity, yes? no?


This forum does not mind digression, am I correct?

Or would you rather go back to the fundamental concept of God in the Christian faith in relation to the universe, I like very much to hear your views on panentheism.


I promise not to call you a liar anymore.





Pachomius

 

[Gracchus]

Originally posted by Gracchus; 57588849

[...]

I am a panentheist. ...

[...]


​

Pleased to meet a panentheist.

So, you are not an atheist, but you do not like Christianity, yes? no?

I am not a follower of Christianity. I do think that Jesus was a wise teacher who tried to tell us how to save ourselves.

This forum does not mind digression, am I correct?

Let's move this back to your thread.

Or would you rather go back to the fundamental concept of God in the Christian faith in relation to the universe, I like very much to hear your views on panentheism.

That would not be appropriate to this thread.

I promise not to call you a liar anymore.

That really doesn't matter to me. If I were a liar, I might take offense at the truth, but that offense would not be justified. If I am not a liar, then I can ignore the charge, or defend myself against it, as I deem appropriate.

 

[Nabobalis]

I too would like to know what a non-creationist Christian is.

Even theistic evolutionists believe in creation.

You fully know that we were talking about YEC/OECs.

 

[Nabobalis]

So in other words they're not really very good Christians, IF Christians at all. Jesus took God's word literally so why don't they? Shouldn't a disciple FOLLOW what their teacher teaches? They aren't very good followers of Jesus now are they? It only makes sense that a disciple will do what their master tells them or they really AREN'T disciples.

Jesus was a creationist. He taught this.

Mar 10:6But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

There was no abiogenesis going on in that statement. He didn't believe in that. He believed... in the beginning God made them male and female... Adam and Eve!! Plain and simple. He believed in Genesis.

Today if He spoke with these so called Christians you speak of, He would probably say "haven't you read what I said?" or "haven't you read Genesis?"

Mat 19:4 And He answered and said unto them, "Have ye not read, that He which made them at the beginning made them male and female,"

Then He would ask,

Luk 6:46 Why do you keep on saying that I am your Lord, when you refuse to do what I say?
Luk 6:47 Anyone who comes and listens to me and obeys me
Luk 6:48 is like someone who dug down deep and built a house on solid rock. When the flood came and the river rushed against the house, it was built so well that it didn't even shake.

Luk 6:40 The disciple is not greater than his master, but everyone whose learning is complete will be like his master.


Let me tell you what the Bible says a Christian is. A Christian is a "disciple" or "follower" of Jesus Christ. That's easy. Plainly written. Don't need an interpreter for that. A child could understand that. So why can't people get that just because a person SAYS they are a Christian does not mean they ARE a Christian. You have to be a FOLLOWER of Christ to be a Christian. You know ... follow what He teaches.

Act 11:26 And when he had come across him, he took him to Antioch. And they were with the church there for a year, teaching the people; and the disciples were first given the name of Christians in Antioch.


But I guess you were right on one point these people do not read the Bible... literally!!

That is all well and good but the vast majority (i.e 95% or more) are not literalist that accept the earth is 6 days old. You should take it up with those Christians. not with me. But those Christians that you gave in your examples most likely did not believe in YEC.

But I think we are going off topic.

 

[Nathan Poe]

So in other words they're not really very good Christians, IF Christians at all.

Are YOU a good enough Christian to judge?

Jesus took God's word literally so why don't they?

Actually, he didn't -- he rewrote "God's word" left, right, and center.

If he hadn't, there'd be no offer of salvation, now would there?

Shouldn't a disciple FOLLOW what their teacher teaches? They aren't very good followers of Jesus now are they? It only makes sense that a disciple will do what their master tells them or they really AREN'T disciples.

Actually, it's the duty of a student to surpass the teacher -- otherwise, how does anybody learn?

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

There was no abiogenesis going on in that statement. He didn't believe in that. He believed... in the beginning God made them male and female... Adam and Eve!! Plain and simple. He believed in Genesis.

... as a teaching tool to discourage polygamy.

Today if He spoke with these so called Christians you speak of, He would probably say "haven't you read what I said?" or "haven't you read Genesis?"

Well, as long as we have you to put words in his mouth, we don't really need him, now do we?

Go ahead, be Jesus for us a little more -- I'm enjoying the show.

 

[AV1611VET]

If he hadn't, there'd be no offer of salvation, now would there?

Er ... no ... the Old Testament saints got saved the same way we do; with a minor exception: they looked forward to the Cross, whereas we look back at it.

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

Psalm 3:8 Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Er ... no ... the Old Testament saints got saved the same way we do; with a minor exception: they looked forward to the Cross, whereas we look back at it.


Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

Psalm 3:8 Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah.

Too bad they're not referring to Jesus or the cross -- nice try, tho.

 

[AV1611VET]

Too bad they're not referring to Jesus or the cross -- nice try, tho.

From John Wesley's notes:

The word Goel, here used; properly agrees to Jesus Christ:

See also:

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Actually, it's the duty of a student to surpass the teacher -- otherwise, how does anybody learn?

Evidently you don't take your own advice.

 

[Nathan Poe]

From John Wesley's notes

And who is John Wesley that I should care what he thinks?

 

[AV1611VET]

And who is John Wesley that I should care what he thinks?

Someone whose notes say you're wrong.

But I can certainly understand where you're coming from.

You've probably supplanted his 'divinity' with your own already.

Now you don't respect him?

 

[Nathan Poe]

Someone whose notes say you're wrong.

And my notes say he's wrong.

I'll repeat the question: Who is he that I should care what he thinks?

 

[AV1611VET]

And my notes say he's wrong.

I'll repeat the question: Who is he that I should care what he thinks?

One of your divinity clones?

 

[Inan3]

That is all well and good but the vast majority (i.e 95% or more) are not literalist that accept the earth is 6 days old. You should take it up with those Christians. not with me. But those Christians that you gave in your examples most likely did not believe in YEC.

But I think we are going off topic.

But "I" don't accept the earth is 6 days old, either. I really don't know anyone who does. Although, I think you mean are pertaining to the 6 days in Genesis. I don't think you meant to say people believe the earth was 6 days old.

I don't believe in YEC either. I believe in the gap theory and a much older earth.

I also, do not believe that the 6 days mentioned in Genesis 1 were necessarily the way in which creation was worked out but I do believe exactly that what Genesis 1 says is exactly the way that it happened in those 6 days. I know that might be a bit confusing not understanding where I'm coming from but that is all I'm saying for now.

I just believe it differently than most (Christians also) because I think the scriptures tell it differently. Just so I'm clear though, I definitely do not see it like unbelievers do either. I do see it as literal.

Also, lest anyone think I am saying I think the scriptures contradict themselves, I am not. I think they work symetrically and perfectly together. I just believe it is the understanding of it and the passing on down of that understanding that makes it confusing to a lot of people.

 

[Nathan Poe]

One of your divinity clones?

In other words, you don't know.