Issues in Scienceville.

[Cabal]

I guess my real pet peeve about them is how, in addition to the above two personality traits, many of them have recently -- out of bitterness, jealousy, or just blind panic; I can't quite tell which -- felt the need to lash out at those people: scientists, inventors, educators, et cetera, who actually have earned respect for actions which have produced real and tangible results, who have made the world a better place, who have had the courage to try what others said couldn't be done.

It's as though they've given up trying to keep up with the Joneses, and are now hellbent on trying to drag them down to their own level. And that just makes me sad. Organized religions tend to do this in cycles -- sometimes they cultivate and encourge great thinkers, other times, they repress, surpress, oppress, and (when all else fails) have them burned.

Every religous institution goes through these cycles, but never in sync -- for example, while Christian Europe was floundering in the Dark Ages, the Islamic world was exploding with knowledge and ideas we use to this day -- indeed, it can be argued that without them, the Renaissance never would've happened.

Of course, look at the Middle East now -- depressing, isn't it? And now I start seeing what might be the first signs of Christian Institutions (starting on the individual level) sinking back into the mire of dogma, ignorance, and superstition.

Arguably, Christianity and Islam are two of the most powerful cultural influences in the world today -- so here's a question: What happens for those of us who think for fun and profit when these two cultural behemoths go stagnant at the same time?

Answer: nothing good.

I see folks like you, Inan, and I want to see some sign of breaking the trend. Alas, it's not happening.

^ This, possibly engraved large and put on a building somewhere.

I've just had some colleagues release a pretty amazing result - I'll spare the details, but they're essentially probing the same kind of physics the LHC is probing (y'know, that machine that all the naysayers were banging on about right about the time their governments were hoovering up their money to pay for a bailout about a million times more expensive) using a tabletop experiment, and their result has some pretty amazing implications for cosmology.

Cue the religionists in news comment threads to start claiming this in the name of their deity....

And that, Inan, is why you and far too many Christians like you are part of the problem -- you're so in love with this "End Times" nonsense because it's just what you've been looking for to give up.

Think about it -- you really don't have to do anything anymore, do you? All that's left is for Jesus to swoop down and rescue you, right on cue.

Are you familiar with the fable of the ant and the grasshopper? One plans for the future, the other doesn't -- guess which one comes out ahead?

Why do you bother talking to me about Jesus? He's nothing to you but an excuse -- you don't have to plan for tomorrow because you've convinced yourselves there won't be a tomorrow.

Of course, if it turns out that there is a tomorrow, you're kind of left holding the bag, aren't you?

And if you need an example of what's wrong with that kind of thinking, look no further than Harold Camping and his suckers. Some of them were so convinced that May 21 was going to be the end that they sold their posessions, emptied their bank accounts (some to buy billboards for Camping) and even (in one case, anyway) killed their pets in preparation for the May 21 rapture.

And what happened? May 21 came and went, and on the morning of May 22, a lot of good honest folk who had given up on their and their children's future were left scratching their heads.

But fear not! Camping has already announced that the real Rapture will be October 21 -- and you know what? They'll believe him, for no other reason than they want to. They're sick of living, just like you are, and have given up, just like you have.

Only difference is, you haven't set a date -- but other than that, you're no better than Camping and no smarter than his followers.

So really -- why should I listen to you? You've already given up.

I think this is my pet peeve, this Left-Behind fanfiction eschatology - not only is its lynchpin the Rapture, possibly the most selfish and elitist doctrine in most of Christianity (a religion which up until then would have been entirely about NOT being spared the worst of life but getting alongside those in dire need, which makes the free-evac-ride-to-heaven trope come across as a slightly awkward tonal shift) but also has the utterly sickening notion that not only is the world doomed but any sign of actually trying to unite and make the world a better place is taken as a sign of the antiChrist.

Even when I was a Christian I thought that if I was wrong about the Rapture and Revelation and the earth was doomed to fail then God would have to drag me to heaven kicking and screaming, and I'd be doing my best to make it a better place up until that point. The world God created was still good even after it fell, but many Christians take their sense of disquiet of being outsiders to a whole new level with this "this is not our home" crap.

 

[super animator]

"End Times" nonsense because it's just what you've been looking for to give up.

Are you refering to the end times generaly or one of the views in christian eschatology?

 

[Nathan Poe]

Are you refering to the end times generaly or one of the views in christian eschatology?

One and the same.

 

[super animator]

One and the same.

What?

 

[Nathan Poe]

What?

Christian eschatology has been clamoring that "we're living in the end times" since shortly after the beginning times -- obviously, every prophecy and prediction to that effect has been a bust.

Eschatology is the only branch of theology or philosophy I can think of with an absolutely perfect record -- Zero.

 

[AV1611VET]

Christian eschatology has been clamoring that "we're living in the end times" since shortly after the beginning times --

Excuse me, Nathan -- the end times started at the rending of the veil when Jesus died on the Cross and will end at His second coming, which is at the end of the Tribulation period, following the Rapture.

It's a dispensational term, meaning you probably won't understand and will demonstrate it with your response -- but for the record, we are currently in the 6th dispensation of 7, which is the last dispensation we will experience sans God ruling physically on the earth (theocracy).

Thus it is the end times, or the last of the dispensations concerning man calling his own shots without God physically at his side.

If the earth continued another 60 trillion years as-is, it would still be the 'end times' or 'last [mundane] dispensation'.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Excuse me, Nathan -- the end times started at the rending of the veil when Jesus died on the Cross and will end at His second coming, which is at the end of the Tribulation period, following the Rapture.

In other words, we've been living in the "End times" for 2,000 years and counting.

It's a dispensational term, meaning you probably won't understand and will demonstrate it with your response -- but for the record, we are currently in the 6th dispensation of 7, which is the last dispensation we will experience sans God ruling physically on the earth (theocracy).

So, it's a man-made institution to justify and explain things -- pretty much like the rest of religion.

Thus it is the end times, or the last of the dispensations concerning man calling his own shots without God physically at his side.

If the earth continued another 60 trillion years as-is, it would still be the 'end times' or 'last [mundane] dispensation'.

You know, with a little bit of effort, that could almost be interesting.

Run along and play, AV -- we haven't any more time to humor you.

 

[Inan3]

No problem. Do you see what I mean though - what seems like a perfectly plausable explanation, seashells in mountains are there because of the flood, is actually completely inadequate when you keep asking questions? If you keep going, you'll find there are lots of similar issues. Why for example, if there was a global flood that wiped out everyone except Noah and his family do several cultures on earth continue unbroken?

Yes, I see what you are talking about. I understand why seemingly there is not more evidence to draw from. I don't know enough about the seashells and other things that creationists do claim to be evidence. I am not convinced yet by the evidence that geologists have produced either. It seems to ALL be specualtion to me on both sides. Your idea/my idea so to speak.. depending upon the bias. I know it takes quite a bit of money to look for evidence and I know enough about science that it appears there are usually specific reasons that digs are funded and consequently happen. I'm not sure that there have been digs to specifically look for evidence of the flood or not. Lots of things I am not sure of, so I keep an open mind. What I am sure of is God is real! That is something "I" have experienced and studied. I certainly do not know everything about everything, just because I know God, but what I HAVE learned has proved out continually for me. What I have experienced has been in line with the Bible which I believe is God's manual for the human race. I therefore, expect and believe that the flood occured just as it has been written in the Bible. Jesus referred to it in the New Testament and others in antiquity. We do have other historical records where other people and cultures have mentioned the flood. I believe it happened and expect there should be evidence to prove it in the earth. Not sure why more has not been revealed but I expect it is there.

As to your last question, I would like to know what kind of proof there is that these cultures did not come from Noah. As far as what I have seen there is nothing to show definitely otherwise. I am open to hear more if you have that information.

Okay, and I can see where you are coming from. Part of the reason is it's been done so many times before. It gets old hat to keep dragging up the same refutations. And to people who work in the fields of biology, geology, they are really stupid. It's the equivalent of people coming up to you and saying "Christianity promotes canibalism! It does! I found a website that says so!" Anyone with any understanding of Christianity would know this was false.

I understand that and I try to understand people from their vantage point. My experience here has not been a good one nor has it enabled me to do that. I do not believe this forum really is a good format for debate because you have so many who rudely jump in to a discussion and want to antagonize or whatever. Some are sincere while others just want to ... bring discord. Occasionally, you get someone you can talk to but then someone else gets involved and the whole thing begins to fall apart. I think in ALL my time here (since 2007) there has been one person on the opposite side of the debate (from me) who has actually spoken up to a post from "their" side suggesting that it was "uncalled for and cheap". That was here.

speaking of uncalled for and cheap, that is too.

The only problem with that is she has been one of the bigger offenders otherwise.

How's this for an example. Go to the Answers in Genesis site, and look at their list of arguments creationists shouldn't use. Then go and read some of Kent Hovinds stuff and see how many things he claims as fact that even other creationists say he shouldn't use. Hovind's an extreme case, but if you genuinely want to know what is wrong with the arguments proffessional creationists use start a thread and ask "what's wrong with this?" I don't really want to clutter up this thread as it's off topic.

Psudopod, thank you for this suggestion. I have read some of these sites "a little". I actually never knew much about these guys until I came on here. Most have pointed out to me what they think is wrong with these guys and so I have really tried to keep clear of getting my info from them directly. I have at times used some things I have found in searching a specific topic and presented it here for that reason, usually to support my argument. I can't tell you if it came from that particular site or not. My experience has not been an interchange of why this or that might be wrong, like you have done, but rather an attack on those that I got the information from or upon me for my lack of knowledge, etc. I realize that it is easy to believe that somehow it has all just been a mix up in understanding, but I assure you many times it is not just a mix up (I'm very good with understanding and reading people.... though, I do make mistakes). The truth is there are a lot of immature posters on here who just want to attack and be mean. It seems they actually take pleasure in it. It's all just a big game for them... sort of a sporting event.

They might be challenging the point, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be willing to accept evidence. That's an important distinction to make. It doesn't matter if no one believe the evidence exists. If it is produced and cannot be countered, then it has to be accepted. And I think it is important that it is good quality. It has to stand up and be convincing.

That's fair and would be nice if it would just run that smoothly. As I have said, some just don't want that. I am learning to filter them out, though.

Think about what you asking people to accept - that everything we understand and everything we have gained results from is based on a misconception. Occationaly in the history of science, this does happen. Look at quantum mechanics for example. It makes no sense to me that energy should be a set of discrete values, rather than continuous. But the evidence kept piling up so it couldn't be ignored. Science doesn't get things massively wrong often because it is a good methodolgy but when it does happen, and when the evidence can be shown, we don't ignore the findings.

That's fair. I certainly would not want you or anyone else to give it all up. I also, do not think it is necessary. I see no reason why science could not exist alongside creation concepts. I think God is responsible for science.

Now I ask you the same thing, to think about what you are asking me to accept. I have been a Christian for 40+ years now. I was definitely NOT a Christian prior to that. Everything I have learned and experienced about Christianity has only convinced me more and more that God is real and that what is in the Bible is true. I am not a mundane Christian who goes to church because I feel guilty and have to do my duty, etc. My faith is not a "side" issue in my life it IS my life and I love it. It seems you are asking me to accept that all that I believe in and have dedicated my life to and has BECOME my LIFE, is not real because of some admittedly unproven but speculated evidence. I've been told it is all a fairy tale and they base it on what they say is proven science. Well, that's not going to happen. There is NOT enough evidence on science's side that can do that.

I realize that you could say the same regarding the evidence (meaning natural) on my side. You can't see God or some of the other things you want natural evidence for but don't you find it interesting that the Bible says over and over again that you CANNOT know God through the natural evidence. To me THAT is evidence, that a book which has changed the lives of millions, explains that you can only reach God by faith and not seeing. It's an indication that men would try to do this. Not sure the definition of "science evidence" but I know that this fits the criteria for regular evidence. It even is predictable and has stood the test as such. When this was written it was not written to counterargue modern day science or atheism. It was written just about mankind in general. Todays science seems to try to counterargue creationsim.

Often times when I see evidence in science it seems to come about because someone did a study to disprove creation. I don't say this is always the case in every "study" and I expect it is not in most, but there does seem to be a definite bias in the science community to do this. I often have heard science lectures (online) and they always seem to make negative reference to creation or creationists in their discourse and use that for a focus or argument. This makes it all suspect to me as to WHY and WHAT evidence is all about. Can you understand that?

No offence, but I think it more shows that you don't understand why publishing is important. It gets the science out in the public domain, so not only can people see your results, they can see what you did to get to them. And that's important. Massively, massively important. If you come up with a strange result that doesn't tie in with our understanding it could mean you've discovered something new. Or it could mean you've got a contamination, or didn't measure something acurately enough. Without knowing what you did, we've got know way of checking ourselves.

Can I ask who you think these "big guys" are? Who do you think does peer review?

I have just done a search regarding peer-review and found that I did not really know how it all went together. I found out some of what I consider "fair and balanced" information which I just shared last night here:

Peer Review

So, what does all this mean for me?

Basically, you shouldn't canonize everything a peer-reviewed journal article says just because it is a peer-reviewed journal article. But, at the same time, being peer reviewed is a sign that the paper's author has done some level of due diligence in their work. Peer review is flawed, but it has value. There are improvements that could be made. But, like the old joke about democracy, peer review is the worst possible system except for every other system we've ever come up with.

Read more here:

Meet Science: What is "peer review"? - Boing Boing

It gives a lot of insight into peer-review. It really helped me see and understand how it works. I might ask a few things about it in another post or point out a few thoughts I had when I read it.

So who is this Unmentioned Church and where is the evidence that they are sweeping things under the rug. There have been several cases of fraud in the papers I can think of over the years and they have all been uncovered by other scientists.

Firstly, we are not allowed to mention church names here on CF so that is why I just used "Unmentioned".

I was basically using an example, as you were, to make a point. I was not speaking of this church sweeping science cases under the rug but church cases or issues.

Now, because it takes a lot of time (on both your part and mind) to address other posters and how or why they said or did things etc. and in light of the fact it seems to have been covered in great detail on both sides I would like to not have to do so in future posts. I suppose that would be okay with you but if not let me know. I will take the fault for that but I really don't want to do it in the future. That is not my purpose here on the forums. I am trying to keep that goal before me and I expect that one day I will have gotten myself to the point where I will not respond emotionally in any way, shape or form.

 

[Inan3]

And all this time I thought "Gospel" meant "good news."

The gospel/good news is about Jesus. Judgement is not intended to be good news to those who will come under it but it is good news that Jesus took the judgement of God on Himself that we don't have to. It's a free gift. We just have to believe it to have it. That's good news. This world and the devil will be judged and then we have a new and righteous government to look forward to. That's good news. There is a lot of good news in the gospel. I guess it is the vantage point you are coming from that determines whether it is bad or good news.

And that, Inan, is why you and far too many Christians like you are part of the problem -- you're so in love with this "End Times" nonsense because it's just what you've been looking for to give up.

Think about it -- you really don't have to do anything anymore, do you? All that's left is for Jesus to swoop down and rescue you, right on cue.

I do plenty but what is it YOU want us to do, NP?

Are you familiar with the fable of the ant and the grasshopper? One plans for the future, the other doesn't -- guess which one comes out ahead?

Of course NP, probably before you were born.

Why do you bother talking to me about Jesus? He's nothing to you but an excuse -- you don't have to plan for tomorrow because you've convinced yourselves there won't be a tomorrow.

I talk to you about Jesus, NP, because He loves you and wants me to. Contrary to what you might think. He's everything to me. He is my Lord and I love to please Him. My plan is to do what He has commissioned us to do....tell as many people about Him as we can.

If you heard from the science community that there was an impending doom, such as a giant asteroid smashing into the earth about to destroy millions of people, wouldn't you tell them? Wouldn't you let them know there was a way out? Well, that is what I am doing.

Of course, if it turns out that there is a tomorrow, you're kind of left holding the bag, aren't you?

I KNOW there is a tomorrow. We've got at least 1007 years left on this earth and I'm expect more. It's a good future and I certainly do not expect to be left holding the bag. I'm going to endure to the end. I'm going to occupy till He comes. I keeping my eyes open. I'm planning for it but I want to take as many with me as I can.

There will be those who are left behind though. They will stay for the judgement, but even then, IF they turn to the Lord, He will be with them through it and protect them. It's better to be ready beforehand. People will be going on with their lives not knowing or ignoring the signs and one day... bam!! ... eveything is going to change. All I'm telling you NP is look at the signs. This world is NOT the way it was when I was born, and not even since you've been born. We are going in a totally different direction. It's all been shown in the Bible and it is happening. One world government is on the rise about to happen and was prophesied thousands of years ago in the Bible. Things are coming more and more to a head. Look at the signs. That's why you should listen to me.

And if you need an example of what's wrong with that kind of thinking, look no further than Harold Camping and his suckers. Some of them were so convinced that May 21 was going to be the end that they sold their posessions, emptied their bank accounts (some to buy billboards for Camping) and even (in one case, anyway) killed their pets in preparation for the May 21 rapture.

And what happened? May 21 came and went, and on the morning of May 22, a lot of good honest folk who had given up on their and their children's future were left scratching their heads.

But fear not! Camping has already announced that the real Rapture will be October 21 -- and you know what? They'll believe him, for no other reason than they want to. They're sick of living, just like you are, and have given up, just like you have.

Only difference is, you haven't set a date -- but other than that, you're no better than Camping and no smarter than his followers.

One thing I'm NOT going to do is set a date. Jesus said that no man knows the day or the hour. He aslo warned not to let anyone deceive you.
Mat 24:3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

He then went on to tell them though, that there would be "signs" of the His coming and of the end of this world system but He made sure to add.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
​

In the gospel of Mark it is recorded that He includes Himself also, as not knowing.

Mar 13:32But of that day andthathour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Mar 13:33Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
​

For someone to set the day or hour, it is an indication that they should be avoided and NOT followed. To follow someone who does, you are setting yourself up to be deceived. It's very clear.

There's plenty of work to be done. The most important is getting the word out. As for waiting till Jesus swoops me up, I'm looking forward to it.

So really -- why should I listen to you? You've already given up.[/quote]

Doesn't it interest you that the scriptures have predicted this day. That things are happening all over the world and scripture is being fulfilled right before our very eyes. Israel is a key sign. It has not been a nation for almost 2000 years and now they are. That may not seem so odd to you or me on the surface because in our life time we haven't known anything else. But think about it approximately 2000 years ago Jesus prophesied that they would be scattered into all the world and when they came back this was the beginning sign of the end. They were scattered in 70 ad and in 1948 they again became a nation. Jesus also said this is the sign of the beginning. The times of the Gentiles has come to an end. Israel will be in focus now. Big, big sign, NP. That is what stirs it ALL up.

You're the scientist, figure it out. Aren't we seeing more earthquakes, more famines, more wars and rumors of wars, more diseases, these are all signs of the end times. Not the end of the earth but the end of this world system. Still a few things more to happen, though. The anti-christ will be set up as a global ruler for seven years. (seven years of tribulation on the earth) Prior to that is when Jesus is coming back in the clouds to "swoop" His people up. After the seven years Jesus is coming back TO the earth and He is going to at that time to set up His kingdom. That will be the millenial reign.

That all being said, why should you listen to me, NP because even though the earth will be going on for awhile and you might go on with it. There will be a judgement soon on this world. It's not going to be an easy time. It won't be because of aliens it will be because of judgement. It's not aliens coming, it's Jesus. Once in the clouds to take those who are His away while judgement happens and then once again to take over the kingdoms of this earth and set up His kingdom and His followers will rule and reign with Him. You might last through the judgement or be here during the millenial reign both I hope for you but it is even better to join the side of the Lord and receive ALL that He has promised for those who are faithful to Him.


Maybe you won't believe this but contrary to what you might think... I am not saying, "so that's what going to happen to you, you wicked person. you're going to be judged and I'm glad!!" That is the LAST thing I want for you or anyone on this forum. I WANT you to be on the RIGHT side of the judgement.... on the Lord's side. I would love to stand side by side with you all. I hate to think of anyone falling short of God's best for them but some will unfortunately. Don't listen to me, if you don't want to, but look at the signs. Do a search and hear it from others with a greater understanding than I. Talk to the Lord, let Him tell you. I don't know what else to tell you.

I haven't given up NP, there's a lot to look forward to. Once again I ask you, what is it YOU want me to do?

 

[Split Rock]

I haven't given up NP, there's a lot to look forward to. Once again I ask you, what is it YOU want me to do?

Hey Inan... have you visited my new thread "Issues in Creationville" yet? See... you have inspired me!

 

[AV1611VET]

Hey Inan... have you visited my new thread "Issues in Creationville" yet? See... you have inspired me!

Actually, I think it's a poorly-written OP -- no offense.

 

[Inan3]

Christian eschatology has been clamoring that "we're living in the end times" since shortly after the beginning times -- obviously, every prophecy and prediction to that effect has been a bust.

Eschatology is the only branch of theology or philosophy I can think of with an absolutely perfect record -- Zero.

Well, that is because there are different things that have different endings.
There is the end of the Old Testament and living under that dispensation. Jesus ended that on the cross. It is finished.

Then there is the "Times of the Gentiles" where Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfulled (ended). The times of the Gentiles began 70 ad until now. God has never forgotten His promises to the Jews and in 1948 they became an independent nation again. The next part is removing the Gentiles from Jerusalem. We're seeing that in progress now. We're just waiting till it be fulfilled... and it will be. God has promised. All things have been and will be fulfilled that He has promised to them. They are now a nation and will NEVER be removed again, though every country on the earth come against them they will not be taken out of their country again.

Now this next part I'm not exactly sure the order but I believe it goes this way. The world system will end. Babylon will fall. There is coming another great war against Israel. Israel will win. The "times of the Gentiles" will end. The church will be taken up. The anti-christ will be revealed. Tribulatiion will begin and end with the coming of the Lord from Heaven to set up His millenial reign. He defeats the anti-christ and those that fight with Him in the Battle of Armaggedon. Jesus enters Jerusalem and sets up His kingdom. satan is bound during this time. satan is loosed for a season and will deceive the nations and then will come his final judgement. After that the Great White throne judgement of all the dead who will be delivered up with satan and cast into the Lake of Fire. THEN there will be the end of the earth and heavens and there will be a NEW heaven and earth. From there we will just be beginning.

One way or another we will all have a part. Makes sense to be on the Lord's side. As for me and my house we will serve the Lord!! Come join us!!

 

[Inan3]

Hey Inan... have you visited my new thread "Issues in Creationville" yet? See... you have inspired me!

That's too funny SR. I haven't been there yet, but I will check it out!! Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Inan3]

Actually, I think it's a poorly-written OP -- no offense.

Hmmm that doesn't sound like Split Rock. We don't usually see eye to eye but he usually has a little spunk and insight. I'll check it out and let you know. Thanks for the review.

 

[AV1611VET]

Hmmm that doesn't sound like Split Rock. We don't usually see eye to eye but he usually has a little spunk and insight. I'll check it out and let you know. Thanks for the review.

I agree with you; but every once in awhile, one of our seasoned posters will produce one.

Present company excluded, of course --

 

[Split Rock]

Actually, I think it's a poorly-written OP -- no offense.

Ha! That's only because you are the one that usually inspires my parody threads, and now you are jealous!

 

[Inan3]

Ha! That's only because you are the one that usually inspires my parody threads, and now you are jealous!

No, he's not jealous, only proud, everything I know I learned from his Father. We are family... my brothers and my sisters and me!!!

 

[Inan3]

OHHHH! Look what at all these evil scientists have done to this poor man!:

BBC News - Double hand transplant patient has bandages removed

Psa 139:13 My flesh was made by you, and my parts joined together in my mother's body.
Psa 139:14 I will give you praise, for I am strangely and delicately formed; your works are great wonders, and of this my soul is fully conscious.

Thank you Lord. That your creation is marvelously made and therefore, these doctors were able to perform this wonderful procedure. Thank You for advancing science that mankind would be benefited by it. You are a wonderful God. Thank You for guiding the "hands" of all those involved.

 

[Nathan Poe]

I do plenty but what is it YOU want us to do, NP?

Produce something. Show, don't tell -- and stop trying to tear down those who have already done so.

It reeks of petty jealousy -- some of you "Christian" bretheren here never seem to have anything else, but you...

Of course NP, probably before you were born.

You know the fable -- remember it.

I talk to you about Jesus, NP, because He loves you and wants me to. Contrary to what you might think. He's everything to me. He is my Lord and I love to please Him. My plan is to do what He has commissioned us to do....tell as many people about Him as we can.

And now that you have -- and I have to tell you, you haven't told me anything I hadn't heard before -- what happens now?

If you heard from the science community that there was an impending doom, such as a giant asteroid smashing into the earth about to destroy millions of people, wouldn't you tell them? Wouldn't you let them know there was a way out? Well, that is what I am doing.

So -- show me the asteroid.

You can do that, right? C'mon, Inan, show me what makes your prediction of impending doom any different from the parade of doomsayers that have come before you -- with a 100% failure rate.

It's more like someone standing on the beach, noticing that the water level is slowly rising -- she runs through the town warning of the impending flood, when the reality is, it's just high tide -- doing what it's always done.

I KNOW there is a tomorrow. We've got at least 1007 years left on this earth and I'm expect more. It's a good future and I certainly do not expect to be left holding the bag. I'm going to endure to the end. I'm going to occupy till He comes. I keeping my eyes open. I'm planning for it but I want to take as many with me as I can.

It's the future here that needs to be addressed first.

There will be those who are left behind though. They will stay for the judgement, but even then, IF they turn to the Lord, He will be with them through it and protect them. It's better to be ready beforehand.

"Live every day as if it were your last -- one day you'll be right."

People will be going on with their lives not knowing or ignoring the signs and one day... bam!! ... eveything is going to change. All I'm telling you NP is look at the signs.

Oh, but I have, Inan -- Everything has changed. Everything has always changed. Everything is always changing. Everything will always change.

The big question is: how do you react to change? Do you fear it, accept it, or embrace it?

This world is NOT the way it was when I was born, and not even since you've been born.

Which is perfectly normal and to be expected.

We are going in a totally different direction.

Different from what? What direction were we going in before.... before... before what, exactly?

It's all been shown in the Bible and it is happening.

Funny -- all those doomsayers before you read the Bible and saw it happening too.

One world government is on the rise about to happen and was prophesied thousands of years ago in the Bible.

Because the Bible was compiled during a "one world government" -- the Roman Empire.

Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.

Globalization is on the rise -- and I suspect that you guys lash out at scientists because it's technology which made it possible. In the last century, the world has gone from large to small to tiny. No nation-state can afford to ignore that it is part of a larger community, and that its actions have repercussions which affect others.

If an individual realized this, we'd applaud it as a sign of maturity -- yet your interpretation of the Bible causes you to fear this.

But don't fret -- borders will still exist. There's still enough petty jealousy, rivalry, tribalism, territorialism, ethnocentricism, and religious arrogance, intolerance, and downright hatred to keep the people apart, even as it becomes increasingly easier and more prudent for them to come together.

Isn't that interesting, Inan, that your interpretation of the Bible not only requires you to be suspicious of people doing what they should, but also cannot happen unless people abandon the very principles which they have been using to rationalize killing each other since the fist caveman slapped the second?

Things are coming more and more to a head. Look at the signs. That's why you should listen to me.

I've seen the signs -- and as much as I'd hate to disappoint you*, the sky is not falling.

*(okay, in the interest of honesty, I'd thoroughly enjoy disappointing you)

You're right about one thing -- the world is changing. You're not prepared for it; I'm not either. But I'm not afraid of that.

One thing I'm NOT going to do is set a date. Jesus said that no man knows the day or the hour. He aslo warned not to let anyone deceive you.

You know, there's actually a lot that I agree with Jesus on -- this is one of those things.

I think Buddha said it better, though:

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."

He then went on to tell them though, that there would be "signs" of the His coming and of the end of this world system but He made sure to add.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
​

In the gospel of Mark it is recorded that He includes Himself also, as not knowing.

I'm aware of that -- Look what else he said:

Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Seems to me that Jesus was explicitly saying that it was all going to come to a head immediately -- and obviously, it didn't.

That leaves two choices: Admit that Jesus (and by extension, yourselves as believers) was wrong, or find a way to creatively reinterpret His words to save face.

Alas, that choice was hardwired into Christianity before the ink dried on the first Bible:

1 Corinthians 15:17-19 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

^ Can't have that, now can we?

For someone to set the day or hour, it is an indication that they should be avoided and NOT followed. To follow someone who does, you are setting yourself up to be deceived. It's very clear.

Only slightly less deceived than someone who says "soon -- real soon; we know for sure this time!"

There's plenty of work to be done. The most important is getting the word out.

The Bible is the most popular book in human history; Christianity boasts over a billion professed followers. Who hasn't gotten the word yet?

As for waiting till Jesus swoops me up, I'm looking forward to it.

And then what? What will you do after you get swooped? In the past, I've compared religion (Christianity in particular) to a giant ponzi scheme -- everyone pays; nobody collects. So why don't you tell me, in your own words, what happens next?

Doesn't it interest you that the scriptures have predicted this day.

It does, as a matter of fact -- does this interest you?

"The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." -- Graffiti found on the walls of Pompeii.

The Bible is a wholly remarkable book -- the compilation of an entire ancient civilization's sacred and wisdom literature. And after 2,000 years of people latching on to it as a source of guidance in their own lives, it's easy to interpret it in any era, for any situation, to produce the desired effect.

And the best part is --- It's "The word of God" -- who among the faithful is going to argue?

That things are happening all over the world and scripture is being fulfilled right before our very eyes. Israel is a key sign. It has not been a nation for almost 2000 years and now they are. That may not seem so odd to you or me on the surface because in our life time we haven't known anything else. But think about it approximately 2000 years ago Jesus prophesied that they would be scattered into all the world and when they came back this was the beginning sign of the end. They were scattered in 70 ad and in 1948 they again became a nation. Jesus also said this is the sign of the beginning. The times of the Gentiles has come to an end. Israel will be in focus now. Big, big sign, NP. That is what stirs it ALL up.

Doesn't it interest you that the people who made that prophecy happen were fully aware of it, and had plenty to gain by deliberatly making it come to pass?

You're the scientist, figure it out. Aren't we seeing more earthquakes, more famines, more wars and rumors of wars, more diseases, these are all signs of the end times.

Of course we're seeing more -- we're more capable of paying attention.

Do you think the number of Earthquakes has risen since 2,000 years ago? What are you basing that on?


As for the rest -- more people = more famines, more wars and rumors of wars, more diseases.

It's not divinity; it's doing the math.

Not the end of the earth but the end of this world system.

Just like the end of the last world system, and the end of the world system before that one, and the end of...

Again, change is a constant -- why should this one be different from the long line of changes that appeared before?

Still a few things more to happen, though. The anti-christ will be set up as a global ruler for seven years. (seven years of tribulation on the earth) Prior to that is when Jesus is coming back in the clouds to "swoop" His people up. After the seven years Jesus is coming back TO the earth and He is going to at that time to set up His kingdom. That will be the millenial reign.

I've heard this all before -- it's a charming story, and is useful for giving hope to those who might otherwise wallow in despair at their lot in life.

That all being said, why should you listen to me, NP because even though the earth will be going on for awhile and you might go on with it. There will be a judgement soon on this world. It's not going to be an easy time.

It never is, Inan -- but we'll get through this one just like we got through all the hard times before it.

It won't be because of aliens it will be because of judgement. It's not aliens coming, it's Jesus. Once in the clouds to take those who are His away while judgement happens and then once again to take over the kingdoms of this earth and set up His kingdom and His followers will rule and reign with Him. You might last through the judgement or be here during the millenial reign both I hope for you but it is even better to join the side of the Lord and receive ALL that He has promised for those who are faithful to Him.

Well, there's the bait -- but I've seen the hook.

Maybe you won't believe this but contrary to what you might think... I am not saying, "so that's what going to happen to you, you wicked person. you're going to be judged and I'm glad!!" That is the LAST thing I want for you or anyone on this forum. I WANT you to be on the RIGHT side of the judgement.... on the Lord's side. I would love to stand side by side with you all. I hate to think of anyone falling short of God's best for them but some will unfortunately. Don't listen to me, if you don't want to, but look at the signs. Do a search and hear it from others with a greater understanding than I. Talk to the Lord, let Him tell you. I don't know what else to tell you.

I do believe you're sincere, Inan -- a little misguided in your ciriticisms (as I am from time to time), but you mean well -- which puts you head and shoulders over the usual cavalcade of narcissists and windbags I've been debating around here for far too long (perhaps I need a vacation?)

And yes, I have seen the signs -- I just don't see them as signs of doom. I've done searches -- I just didn't find the same things you have. And I have spoken to those with greater understanding than you -- I just didn't hear the same bad news.

Change is coming, Inan -- I do agree with you there -- but change is already here, and has been with us for quite some time. It's when things don't change that you should be worried.

So I believe that we're all going to make it though just fine.

I haven't given up NP, there's a lot to look forward to.

How much of it's here?

Once again I ask you, what is it YOU want me to do?

Living up to the words you've said here is a start.

As for the rest, I've already mentioned what it is about religious types that aggravates me. If you want to do something for me -- prove me wrong.

Not just in words, but in deeds.

 

[Inan3]

And now that you have -- and I have to tell you, you haven't told me anything I hadn't heard before -- what happens now?

Quite frankly, I'm not sure. So for now, I'll leave you be. I will be praying though and no hard feelings.