Israel's Salvation in Romans 11:26

[xapis]

Romans 11:26 — "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob"

What does this passage mean to you? How does it fit into the Calvinist mold of soteriology?

Thanks!
Lane

 

[heymikey80]

Romans 11:26 — "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob"

What does this passage mean to you? How does it fit into the Calvinist mold of soteriology?

Why not let them speak for themselves?

http://www.chaim.org/churches/calvinpam.pdf

To be sure this particular passage is normally expanded to "all Israel" in the sense of Jews and Gentiles both being the people of God. However, the passage immediately succeeding it shows special reference to Jews in particular, even while all are brought to the same need for mercy:

concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. Rom 11:28
​

So one of the first Reformers commented as to this:

He shows that the worst thing in the Jews ought not to subject them to the contempt of the Gentiles. Their chief crime was unbelief: but Paul teaches us, that they were thus blinded for a time by God's providence, that a way to the gospel might be made for the Gentiles; http://www.ccel.org/c/calvin/comment3/comm_vol38/htm/xv.vii.htm#_fnf3and that still they were not for ever excluded from the favor of God. Calvin, "Commentaries", Rom 11:28
​

 

[xapis]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to heymikey80 again.

 

[cygnusx1]

Romans 11:26 — "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob"

What does this passage mean to you? How does it fit into the Calvinist mold of soteriology?

Thanks!
Lane

It means God has not finished with the Jews ........ how could He ?

the clearest evidence against Arminian theology is Romans 9 and Romans 11 ( I became a Calvinist by reading Romans 11) .......
God does not change , the Jews are still Elect , and even the hardening that God sent them was for a good purpose , which also was intended to make Israel jealous .......

I find as time goes on I become more and more convinced that Salvation is about the Jews , everything is about The Jews ........ the whole point of human history is about The Israel of God ......


we Gentiles are grafted into the Israel of God and warned not to despise the Jews , or think we are something disconnected .....

God will convert the house of Israel , it has already begun.... and must continue ..... the Lord doesn't ask permission to do it , He will do it.

 

[xapis]

the clearest evidence against Arminian theology is Romans 9 and Romans 11 ( I became a Calvinist by reading Romans 11) .......

Thanks for your open response, cyg. I am beginning to see that and to lean in that direction. I feel like I'm in a Spirit-led search for Truth and Romans 8, 9, and 11 have really been bearing heavily on me over the past few weeks. What type of church did you attend before? Did you have to "break fellowship" with family/friends to an extent?

Also, regarding Romans 11, what exactly do you et al. make of verse 22 with regards to the perseverance of the saints?

11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

This continues to be one of the biggest obstacles for me. It is written by Paul as conditional upon the Christian continuing in his goodness. To the same point, 17:3 in the Westminster Confession fails to click with me...

17:3 Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins (Mat. 26:70, Mat. 26:72, Mat. 26:74); and, for a time, continue therein (Psa. 51:14 and title): whereby they incur God’s displeasure (2Sa. 11:27; Isa. 64:5, Isa. 64:7, Isa. 64:9), and grieve His Holy Spirit (Eph. 4:30), come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts (Psa. 51:8, Psa. 51:10, Psa. 51:12; Son. 5:2-4, Son. 5:6; Rev. 2:4), have their hearts hardened (Isa. 36:17; Mar. 6:52; Mar. 16:14), and their consciences wounded (Psa. 32:3, Psa. 32:4; Psa. 51:8), hurt and scandalize others (2Sa. 12:14), and bring temporal judgments upon themselves (Psa. 89:31, Psa. 89:32; 1Co. 11:32).

God does not change , the Jews are still Elect , and even the hardening that God sent them was for a good purpose , which also was intended to make Israel jealous .......

By that, do you believe the Jews still being elect means that even after living and dying in their rebellious and hardened state, they will ALL reach heaven? I think Romans 11 is clear that there is but a remnant "according to the election of grace" (v.5). Depending on your answer to this, I may have several more questions for you all on this topic...



Thanks again to all of you for your patience and kindness in answering all my questions. I will be forever grateful.

 

[heymikey80]

Thanks for your open response, cyg. I am beginning to see that and to lean in that direction. I feel like I'm in a Spirit-led search for Truth and Romans 8, 9, and 11 have really been bearing heavily on me over the past few weeks. What type of church did you attend before? Did you have to "break fellowship" with family/friends to an extent?

Well, me, I attended broadly protestantevangelical churches, then self-consciously Presbyterian churches, and now an Evangelical Presbyterian Church.

Also, regarding Romans 11, what exactly do you et al. make of verse 22 with regards to the perseverance of the saints?

11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

This continues to be one of the biggest obstacles for me. It is written by Paul as conditional upon the Christian continuing in his goodness. To the same point, 17:3 in the Westminster Confession fails to click with me...

17:3 Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins (Mat. 26:70, Mat. 26:72, Mat. 26:74); and, for a time, continue therein (Psa. 51:14 and title): whereby they incur God’s displeasure (2Sa. 11:27; Isa. 64:5, Isa. 64:7, Isa. 64:9), and grieve His Holy Spirit (Eph. 4:30), come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts (Psa. 51:8, Psa. 51:10, Psa. 51:12; Son. 5:2-4, Son. 5:6; Rev. 2:4), have their hearts hardened (Isa. 36:17; Mar. 6:52; Mar. 16:14), and their consciences wounded (Psa. 32:3, Psa. 32:4; Psa. 51:8), hurt and scandalize others (2Sa. 12:14), and bring temporal judgments upon themselves (Psa. 89:31, Psa. 89:32; 1Co. 11:32).

I think the Romans 11 point has to be taken along with Romans 11:25-eoc. Israel's fall from the privilege was not total nor final. They were of essentially walking with God; yet they quit relying on Him, and that fellowship was broken. At the time they were seeking a reason why God didn't return to them. Paul's explanation: they didn't rely on God. And Paul's warning is the same toward Gentile converts: quit relying on God, and He will leave.

This gets subtle, I know Y'hafta realize something: just because someone comes to Christ "through faith", it doesn't mean that this thing, "faith", saves him. I know this is hard to grasp at first, because faith is the critical instrument of our salvation. But not everything that claims the name of "faith" or "believing" is an instrument through which God saves. That much should be clear, cf. James 2:19, Lk 8:13. We use "faith/believe" in a wider sense than "the faith that saves". So not everything rightly named "faith", is "the faith that saves".

For illustration, say I'm looking for a particular flower on your shoulder, a rose I sent to all invitees, to allow people into a party. There are other people around with flowers on their shoulders; yet it's the rose I sent, that I look for. By the same token there is a faith that is from God, which is instrumental in our salvation. If we don't have any faith, we can be assured we aren't saved. If we do have faith of some kind, we're warned to consider its impact on our lives to see if we've really received the faith that saves, or the faith that deceives.

By that, do you believe the Jews still being elect means that even after living and dying in their rebellious and hardened state, they will ALL reach heaven? I think Romans 11 is clear that there is but a remnant "according to the election of grace" (v.5). Depending on your answer to this, I may have several more questions for you all on this topic...

I must admit it's in God's hands, the latter remnant is the more common interpretation. But I think Paul isn't talking about either one. I think his ambition is much more ... based on narrative than on the "spiritual Israel" or on counting every single ethnic Israeli. The reason I hope for more than a remnant is from the grammatical way Paul seems to be putting it. An Israeli remnant is still being saved during Paul's time (11:5, cf :1). But Paul doesn't talk of this as if it's "all Israel". In this remnant time Paul is saying Israel has not obtained the promise 7). To me this indicates the difference: the remnant has obtained it, and yet Israel has not. So I think Paul makes a distinction between "all Israel" and Israel in remnant form. And then Paul makes the heady statement in :12, "if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!" The remnant's transgression ... hm. I think Paul is talking about "all Israel"'s transgression, not his own as part of the remnant. To me this fulfilment cannot be the present remnant time. Paul is speaking about some time in the future, when God returns to the branches He broke off, just as surely as God moved among the wild branches to graft them in (cf. the tree imagery in Rom 11).

So yes, according to the promise God gave, all Israel (under promise, under God's choice) shall be saved. But I don't think that will end up being some small-numbered remnant of ethnic Israel, but instead "as the sands of the shore", "as the stars in the sky", as promised to Abraham (and likely as God knew Abe would understand it).

 

[cygnusx1]

I have yet to see "hardening by God of sinners" used in scripture without some significant meaning or goal in mind ........... Hardening is not principly a punishement for sin , death is the punishment for sin , not hardening ....... Hardening seems to be a peculiarity!

 

[cygnusx1]

Thanks for your open response, cyg. I am beginning to see that and to lean in that direction. I feel like I'm in a Spirit-led search for Truth and Romans 8, 9, and 11 have really been bearing heavily on me over the past few weeks. What type of church did you attend before?

I started in a High anglican Church ... bells and smells .

I heard the Gospel from an old school friend , a few weeks later I went forward at an altar call in a Methodist Church .....

about 6 Months later I did another alter call (don't laugh) in the town I moved to , and then attended a Pentecostal Church for years

... until it became like a circus ....... then it was Reformed Church's (strict Baptist) and a house Church , it folded after about 2 years ...... I then attended and became a member of Carey baptist Church (william carey) ........but that was moving into charismatic stuff ...... and is now headed up by a women leader , so I am not going back there ..
... at present I go nowhere , sorry , I just cannot find anywhere that is balanced , and I have more or less stopped looking.

Did you have to "break fellowship" with family/friends to an extent?

sort of ........ usually unless charisma was being talked about no one was interested in Bible doctrine....

Also, regarding Romans 11, what exactly do you et al. make of verse 22 with regards to the perseverance of the saints?

11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

I take it at face value ........ I do not ignore or trim down texts , the warning is real , but of course nothing takes God by surprise

This continues to be one of the biggest obstacles for me. It is written by Paul as conditional upon the Christian continuing in his goodness.

Read A W Pink ... Eternal security . It is online , it answers the issue of God using means to secure the Elect.

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Security/security.htm

To the same point, 17:3 in the Westminster Confession fails to click with me...

17:3 Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins (Mat. 26:70, Mat. 26:72, Mat. 26:74); and, for a time, continue therein (Psa. 51:14 and title): whereby they incur God’s displeasure (2Sa. 11:27; Isa. 64:5, Isa. 64:7, Isa. 64:9), and grieve His Holy Spirit (Eph. 4:30), come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts (Psa. 51:8, Psa. 51:10, Psa. 51:12; Son. 5:2-4, Son. 5:6; Rev. 2:4), have their hearts hardened (Isa. 36:17; Mar. 6:52; Mar. 16:14), and their consciences wounded (Psa. 32:3, Psa. 32:4; Psa. 51:8), hurt and scandalize others (2Sa. 12:14), and bring temporal judgments upon themselves (Psa. 89:31, Psa. 89:32; 1Co. 11:32).

The Westminster Confession is not equal with scripture , but in most respects it is a brilliant piece of work.

By that, do you believe the Jews still being elect means that even after living and dying in their rebellious and hardened state, they will ALL reach heaven?

No!
Dathan and Esau , Saul and Judas were reprobates , they hated God!

I think Romans 11 is clear that there is but a remnant "according to the election of grace" (v.5). Depending on your answer to this, I may have several more questions for you all on this topic...

fire away!

Thanks again to all of you for your patience and kindness in answering all my questions. I will be forever grateful.

no problem , sorry for the delay.