Israel's future and Pat: Your view

[Tishri1]

Absolutely bass-ackwards and 100% wrong.

A Typo I hope

Why do think evangelists walk around passing around New Testaments????

The Gospel of Jesus Christ stands by itself, and needs no other explanation.

If someone tries to make the OT stand by itself, they will become a Jew.

After they had watched Him die, the Apostles couldn't figure out whatv went wrong. Jesus had to explain to them on the Road to Emmaus what the OT REALLY meant! The Gospel.

The Gospel The Gospel The Gospel The Gospel The Gospel The Gospel The Gospel The Gospel

There are ONLY shadows of the Gospel in the OT. Jesus is the LIGHT.

END. OF. DISCUSSION.

I'm not here to judge evangelists but I can assure you that was(the OT was) the bible Jesus preached from

 

[Tishri1]

I do like the way you think Scholar, you are truely looking for Truth, not Fights...me too and I can easily respond to you for that reason ...thank you

This statement is a bit too broad. Jesus and the Father's words don't change, but circumstances do. We should realize how to apply the words of God in many different circumstances.


Actually, this passage must be interpreted in light of (and does fit with) what I said earlier; that not all of the Law is applicable today. Jesus cannot be talking about all of the Law here.

At the time He said these words it was all in place...Temple , Priesthood, all in full operation.

The Law is useful for teaching, but you might say that is only useful in a fallen world. We will have no need for the Law in the world to come, because we will not need to teach it to anyone; the "Law" will be written on our hearts.

This may be true... I will have to wait to see the results as they occure

As a preterist,

I don't know what a preterist is can you give me your definition in a nut shell?

I believe that this has occured to some extent today. The priesthood and the sacrificial rituals of the Law are perishable, and have been superceded by Christ, the priest in the order of Melchizedek. It would not make sense for the sacrificial rituals of the Law to be "resurrected", if you will, in the world to come because the sacrificial rituals of the Law of Moses are uniquely suited to the mindset of ancient Israel. They were appropriate and useful for following during that time period, but not today, not in the future.

This doesn't mean that we should neglect to do things like fast. The Orthodox Church today is very much in accordance with fasting, from certain foods and sexual activity (although I have not looked at this in depth, I am rather certain that the fasting is emphasized during different times of the year). The Orthodox even fast before they partake of the Eucharist, much like the Israelites fasted and remained ritually clean before they met God on Mt. Sinai.


The mode of discipline certainly "changed". The Law was a covenant between God and Israel; if this same covenant has been continued after the death and resurrection of Christ, which parts have stayed and which parts haven't?


What is "missing", and by that I mean the sacrificial rituals of the Law, is not in place. You may study those aspects of the Law and apply them to your life, but we have already agreed that they do not grant salvation. Again, I emphasize that only bad people (sinful people) need laws; once the general resurrection and the judgment have been fulfilled, there will be no need for certain aspects of the Law.

I disagree that we don't need law(instruction) we all need Law but only sinful people need punishment, and so the difference between Law and Punishment.....I believe the Law(Instruction) is still there for us, but for us who have recieved the free gift, we have had our punishment put upon Jesus and he paid the price for us to walk in his ways free from punishment for sin

We agree, although it should be noted that the Law was not complete, that is, it was not perfect. It was suited to an imperfect world, a tutor to the unworthy. In the same chapter where Jesus says that he has come to uphold the Law, he also states: "It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery."

Elsewhere Jesus says that this happened because "the Israelites' hearts were hard", and that it was not this way from the beginning. He says that a man and a woman should not be divorced except in the case of adultery, for "what God has joined together, let man not separate".

most of the time when you hear the words "You have heared it said..." He is quoting either the school of Shammai or the school of Hallel and then giving his approval over one or the other(mostly he sided with Hallel which turns out to be Paul's school and teacher) in other words he was not changing Law here, only expressing a preference for the different interpretations of the day...Shammai was way stricter (letter of the law) and Hallel was mostly gracious (spirit of the law)....of course he would mosly side with the school of grace

 

[Gwenyfur]

Not really, you can cease the discussion because you clearly have no idea what you are talking about, but that is not any sort of agreement. I have no pride, what I do have is a good knowledge of Scripture and so should any Christian. The fact that you believe things that clearly don't line up with what Christ taught doesn't mean you stick you head in the sand, it means you reconsider what you believe.
Knowledge of the Holy Scripture is not "secular." The Church, Israel, is Holy Scripture guided by Holy Tradition. To know these things is to be part of the Church which is the body of Christ.




There is no difference between the Church and the people of God. You have attempted to cover the falsehoods that you have put forth. First by assigning an asinine interptation of St. Paul's letters and you do so now while claiming to have "the truth of God's word" when your point of view is clearly false in light of the teachings of Jesus Christ, who is the source of all truth. Your position is so weak you couldn't even attempt to address the passages I cited. By all means you may continue in error, I have shown the Scripture and the rest is done by God. To seek truth you must first desire it and clearly you do not. Go peace, may you find desire given by the Holy Spirit to be taken out of your error.

Think what you will....I find you rude, obtuse, and insulting....
for that I forgive your mean attitude and elitist prattle.

Go with G-d

 

[GraceInHim]

Oh Hosanna who comes in the name of the Lord

 

[Espada]

The old covenant is no more, and the new covenant is what Christ brought. As St. Paul tells us, there is neither Jew nor Greek anymore.

I think there are far too many Christians have have taken up an incorrect near worship of the secular state of Israel. Which is in reality just one government among the nations. When you take the birth rate of the Arab population vs that of the Jewish population and combine it with the fact more Jews leave Israel every year that move in the secular state of Israel will probably cease to exist. The Church of Christ, that new Israel and royal priesthood is not affixed to any geographic location, as Christ restored the world and all places are now suitable for prayer.
Christians would do well to worry about the Great Commission and less than faulty interpertations of the book of Revelations.

The Jews were and remain a chosen people, the new covenant has not changed that. What Paul actually teaches is that gentile believers will be grafted in to Israel and some Jews will be pruned out, it is for God to decide who these will be.

Even Paul, the apostle to the gentiles, would first go to the synagogue and preach there. Jesus, came firstly to save the Jews, we came second (Matt 15:21)

It is once we are in Christ that God treats us the same.

There are only a limited number of gentiles who will be saved, when all gentiles have come into Christ then all Israel will be saved.(Rom 11:25)

As for the land of Israel, yes the majority of it is secular and it is just another political country but it has a future if you believe the right streams of eschatology, in which it will make peace with its neighbours.

 

[OnTheWay]

Think what you will....I find you rude, obtuse, and insulting....
for that I forgive your mean attitude and elitist prattle.

Go with G-d

I couldn't care less, nor did I ask for your forgiveness. If you wish to discuss these matters discuss them intelligently or not at all. In a theological discussion you failed to cite a single passage of Scripture. I guess the old addage is correct, do not enter into battles of the wit with those that are unarmed.

 

[Espada]

The Tree is the tree of life, the tree that Christ was hung from on the cross. That is the tree that gentiles were grafted onto. There IS NO LONGER any difference between Jew and Greek (gentile).

Maybe you should read Rom 11, gentiles have been chosen to make Israel envious, we haven't replaced Israel, that is not what Paul was talking about, Paul was refering to believers, that God would save us in the same way. Your idea of the tree we are grafted into suggests you were unaware of the passage that was being refered to (Rom 11) some Jews have been pruned out so that we may be grafted in.

We are in no position to boast about this because we do not support the vine in anyway.

Paul didn't seem to think there was no difference:

Ro 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

Ro 2:9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;
Ro 2:10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

 

[GraceInHim]

Maybe you should read Rom 11, gentiles have been chosen to make Israel envious, we haven't replaced Israel, that is not what Paul was talking about, Paul was refering to believers, that God would save us in the same way. Your idea of the tree we are grafted into suggests you were unaware of the passage that was being refered to (Rom 11) some Jews have been pruned out so that we may be grafted in.

We are in no position to boast about this because we do not support the vine in anyway.

Paul didn't seem to think there was no difference:

Ro 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

Ro 2:9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;
Ro 2:10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

 

[OnTheWay]

As for the land of Israel, yes the majority of it is secular and it is just another political country but it has a future if you believe the right streams of eschatology, in which it will make peace with its neighbours.

The truely laughable thing about all this nonsense is that you are yet another in a long line of false teachers claiming to understand the book or Revelation. You've all been shown false teachers down to the last.

Once again from the top:

Matthew 21:33-43:
Listen to another parable. There was a man, a landowner, who planted a vineyard; he fenced it round, dug a winepress in it and built a tower; then he leased it to tenants and went abroad.
When the vintage time drew near he sent his servant to the tenants to collect his produce.
But the tenants seized his servants, thrashed one, killed another, and stoned a third.
New he sent some more servants, this time a larger number, and they dealt with them in the same way.
Finally he sent his son to them thinking, "they will respect my son."
But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, "this is the heir, come on, let us kill him and take over his inheritance."
So they seized him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
Now when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?
They answered, "he will bring those wretches to a wretched end and lease the vineyard to other tenants who will deliever the produce to him at the proper time.
Jesus said to them, "have you never read in the Scriptures:
The stone which the builders rejected has become the cornerstone, this is the Lord's doing and we marvel at it?
I tell you, then, that the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.

The vineyard owner is God and the tenants are the Jews. The servants are the prophets that God sent to the Jews before he sent his Son Jesus Christ. The new tenants to whom the vineyard is given are those that accept Christ. This dispensationalism nonsense you preach is both a false teaching and is unfounded in Scripture. The old tenants have been thrown out and the vineyard has been given to the faithful.

Colossians 3:11-12
And in that image there is no room for distinction between Greek and Jew, between the circumcised and the uncircumcised, or between the barbarian and Scythian, slave and free. There is only Christ: He is everything and He is in everything. As the chose of God, then, the holy people whom he loves, you are to be clothed in heartfelt compassion, in generosity, and humility, gentleness, and patience.
Galatians 3:28-29
There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither slave nor freeman, there can be neither male nor female-for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And simply by being Christ's you are that progeny of Abraham, the heirs named in the promise.
1 Peter 2:9
But you are a Chosen race, a kingdom of priests, a holy nation, a people to a personal possession to sing the praises of God who called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light.

The tree which all men are grafted onto is the tree of life. The tree on which Christ was nailed for the sins of the world. The tree is not a group of men, for there is no salvation in men nor in the law. Salvation comes only from Christ and the people of God are those that take up their cross and follow after Christ.

From Matthew 8:8-12
The centurion replied, "Sir, I am not worhty to have youunder my roof; just give the word and my servant will be cured.
For I am under authority myself and have soldiers under me; and I say to one man "go," and he goes; to another "come here," and he comes; to my servant, "do this," and he does it.
When Jeus heard this he was astonished and said to those following Him, "in truth I tell you, in no one in Israel have I found faith as great as this.
And I tell you that many will come from east and west and sit down with Abraham and Isaac and Jacomb at the feast in the Kingdom of Heaven.
But the children of the kingdom will be thrown out into the darkness outside, where there will be weeping and grinding of teeth.

Many will come from east and west into the kingdom and many that were in the kingdom with be thrown out. Thus we arrive at the greatest truth, in Christ there is salvation and without Christ there is only death. It matters not whether you be Jew or Greek (gentile).
Furthermore, to declare who will and will not be saved, or in what numbers they will be saved, is a great error. It places those that make such statements in danger at the dread jugdement seat, for the wise do not attempt to tell the Lord God what He can and cannot do. God will save whom God will save and that is not for you or I to say. All can be saved and none must be saved, that is the great injustice of the Lord and may we praise Him for His great mercy that is offered to us in place of our just rewards.
Israel is at peace with its neighbors, it's the people that have been living there for the last couple thousand years it cannot seem to control.

 

[Espada]

I don't know what a preterist is can you give me your definition in a nut shell?

It is someone who believes that the apocalyptical prophecies have already been fulfilled

 

[OnTheWay]

Maybe you should read Rom 11, gentiles have been chosen to make Israel envious, we haven't replaced Israel, that is not what Paul was talking about, Paul was refering to believers, that God would save us in the same way. Your idea of the tree we are grafted into suggests you were unaware of the passage that was being refered to (Rom 11) some Jews have been pruned out so that we may be grafted in.

We are in no position to boast about this because we do not support the vine in anyway.

Paul didn't seem to think there was no difference:

Ro 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

Ro 2:9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;
Ro 2:10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

In the words of Jesus Christ, the first shall be last and the last shall be first.

 

[GraceInHim]

crying out --> Hosanna.. in the name of the Lord


Yeshua loves all who believes, trust, and obeys

 

[Espada]

The truely laughable thing about all this nonsense is that you are yet another in a long line of false teachers claiming to understand the book or Revelation. You've all been shown false teachers down to the last.

Once again from the top:

The vineyard owner is God and the tenants are the Jews. The servants are the prophets that God sent to the Jews before he sent his Son Jesus Christ. The new tenants to whom the vineyard is given are those that accept Christ. This dispensationalism nonsense you preach is both a false teaching and is unfounded in Scripture. The old tenants have been thrown out and the vineyard has been given to the faithful.

The tree which all men are grafted onto is the tree of life. The tree on which Christ was nailed for the sins of the world. The tree is not a group of men, for there is no salvation in men nor in the law. Salvation comes only from Christ and the people of God are those that take up their cross and follow after Christ.

Many will come from east and west into the kingdom and many that were in the kingdom with be thrown out. Thus we arrive at the greatest truth, in Christ there is salvation and without Christ there is only death. It matters not whether you be Jew or Greek (gentile).
Furthermore, to declare who will and will not be saved, or in what numbers they will be saved, is a great error. It places those that make such statements in danger at the dread jugdement seat, for the wise do not attempt to tell the Lord God what He can and cannot do. God will save whom God will save and that is not for you or I to say. All can be saved and none must be saved, that is the great injustice of the Lord and may we praise Him for His great mercy that is offered to us in place of our just rewards.
Israel is at peace with its neighbors, it's the people that have been living there for the last couple thousand years it cannot seem to control.

Firstly I was expressing one view of many in terms of eschatology, not to express belief there, hence I used the conditional.

Read my posts again, how much did I preach? I merely put forward scripure and let it do the talking, much of what I said was merely paraphrasing Paul so to say that it is unfounded in scripture is laughable, to say it is false, well I leave that to God.

I gave no numbers or names for who will be saved, again I merely quoted scripture.

Again, I will explain, when Paul talks about no difference, he is talking about those who are saved so that the Jews will not look down on the gentile. Paul and Jesus both said that Christ was first for the Jew, then for the gentile.

 

[GraceInHim]

In the words of Jesus Christ, the first shall be last and the last shall be first.

think protestants came after the early Church which was somewhere in ??ad - so guess I am before you - one of the first *joking*

 

[Tishri1]

It is someone who believes that the apocalyptical prophecies have already been fulfilled

well I am pretty happy with the Theology I have now but I do agree that everything that has happened before will happen again

Ecclesiastes 1:9 9 That which has been is what will be, That which is done is what will be done, And there is nothing new under the sun.

so maybe I am in agreement with preterist in at least this one tiny point....it has happened before.....but not in it's fullness YET

 

[Scholar in training]

well I am pretty happy with the Theology I have now but I do agree that everything that has happened before will happen again so maybe I am in agreement with preterist in at least this one tiny point....it has happened before.....but not in it's fullness YET

Actually, it is important to distinguish between partial and "full" (or, as they are called by proponents, "consistant") preterists. The former is within orthodoxy, the latter is a heresy. I am an orthodox preterist. You can see a brief explanation of preterism here.

 

[Tishri1]

Actually, it is important to distinguish between partial and "full" (or, as they are called by proponents, "consistant") preterists. The former is within orthodoxy, the latter is a heresy. I am an orthodox preterist. You can see a brief explanation of preterism here.

This is very cool bacause it actually compliments the Messianic view of History repeating it self(and in the events of 70 ad that was actually the 3 x History told the prophetic story) the only thing left is that it wasn't completely finished each of those times , there were pieces left undone each time, and so we have shadows which point us yet to a future fulfillment....Hebraically speaking we call that "Here but not yet..." it's here, but it will be here again because it has a completeness coming with it yet in the future...Many Prophecies in the past had a partial fulfillment with the hope of a final fulfillment in the future. The term "Day of the Lord" is a clue as to a final fulfillment in the future as also "In That Day" also give reference to a future time...an Appointed Time....that's just the basic Messianic view and my opinion

 

[KEPLER]

Replacement theology became populare in the late 19th century and became popularly accepted when Scofield started instructing it as doctrine. THe covenant with the Jews isn't done yet. Messianic or not. The gentiles are the graphtees My empirical evidence is scripture itself. His word remains the same "yesterday, today and forever." *If* it changed that would make G-d human and not divinely perfect. He hasn't ruled on earth as yet...and there hasn't been peace in Israel as yet...won't happen until millenial kingdom when He rules the earth and heals the nations

I am sorry to see that you are so poorly educated and historically ignorant.

Scofield was a heretic. His teachings regarding the distinction between Israel and the Church are heretical and anti-Biblical, as even the most cursory read of Galatians and/or Hebrews makes abundantly clear.

There is no "exclusive" Covenant with Jews.

There is still a Covenant with "God's people". In the OT, "God's people" included exclusively Jews. In the NT "God's people" includes people from ALL nations, both Jew and Gentile.

There are NOT two different Covenants: anyone who says there are is a heretic.

There are NOT two different peoples: anyone who says there are is a heretic.

These are the Biblical facts. Anyone who disagrees with this is a heretic, and calls God a liar.

Kepler

 

[Edial]

sorry watching the a movie on Jesus and had to put this in

"And you will all be hated and persecuted for my name-sake" Jesus said...

wonder who, what people have been persecuted more than anyone?

Jesus was addressing the believers.
This cannot apply to the Judaic Jews.

The Judaic Jews were persecuted and dispersed as a judgement of God.

Also Jesus said "How many times have I wanted to pick up my children as a bird with the wings, but you would not let me" and he said "I have come to heal the people, cure the blind, I have come for the sinners not the righteous" Gee-- who did he speak to at that moment??

He spoke to the Jews that rejected him.
They call(ed) themselves righteous and in no need of a Messiah.
The sacrifices and other means will somehow benefit them. This is their hope.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[GraceInHim]

Jesus was addressing the believers.
This cannot apply to the Judaic Jews.

The Judaic Jews were persecuted and dispersed as a judgement of God.


He spoke to the Jews that rejected him.
They call(ed) themselves righteous and in no need of a Messiah.
The sacrifices and other means will somehow benefit them. This is their hope.

Thanks,
Ed

The Apostels and a lot of followers were Jewish not Roman not African.. we are not speaking of religion, speaking of backgrounds and where they came from.

So are you saying that no Jewish people followed Christ after his resurrection?

Ya you can say Christian.. which is a religion.. but I am talking about those who followed him.. and where is he returning? To Rome?

just clarifying.. what I said.. thanks