Israel's future and Pat: Your view

[Edial]

False premise. It is led by Tradition that is the word of God. The Church is the Body of Christ, obedient to it's head. Individuals can and certainly do err, but the Church, led by the Holy Spirit, bestowed upon it at Pentecost, does not.

This can reasonably lead to one conclusion - you believe that your denomination is the infallible one.
And the rest are fallible since they disagree with your denomination in at least one point.

Am I correct in interpreting it this way?

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Edial]

The Apostels and a lot of followers were Jewish not Roman not African.. we are not speaking of religion, speaking of backgrounds and where they came from.

So are you saying that no Jewish people followed Christ after his resurrection?

Ya you can say Christian.. which is a religion.. but I am talking about those who followed him.. and where is he returning? To Rome?

just clarifying.. what I said.. thanks

I would like to clarify a difference between Christian (Messianic) Jews and the Judaic Jews.
I do not mean it to have anything to do with religion, just faith.

The point of some verses that you quoted quoted were to tell Judaic Jews that they messed up big time and they will no longer (for now) be reached out to by God. And consequently they will be dispersed throughout the world. And this will naturally call various evils due to rejection of God.

The earlier verse that you mentioned had to do with persecution of believers (Jews or Gentiles).
The fact that today's Jews are/were persecuted is because of the earlier reason and not the latter.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Edial]

only comment:

nothing in this world is "holy"...not any church...

ONLY G-d is Holy

True.
However, we are also called holy.

1Pt.2:5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

So, technically speaking true believers do compose a holy priesthood (or church).

Now, are traditions holy?
Impossible. Christ stated that these are rules that were/are made by men.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Zoomer]

My view on Pat.....he is a few cards short of a deck and unfortunately non-Christian judge us based on him.

My view of Israel, well I can almost garuntee there will be no peace in the Middle East, that is..as long as people inhabit the earth.

Dispensationalism is a fabrication of man, and I don't buy into it.

 

[Tishri1]

Jesus was addressing the believers.
This cannot apply to the Judaic Jews.

The Judaic Jews were persecuted and dispersed as a judgement of God.


He spoke to the Jews that rejected him.
They call(ed) themselves righteous and in no need of a Messiah.
The sacrifices and other means will somehow benefit them. This is their hope.

Thanks,
Ed

Where did you get this from?

 

[KEPLER]

Where did you get this from?

Something called the Bible.

 

[GraceInHim]

I would like to clarify a difference between Christian (Messianic) Jews and the Judaic Jews.
I do not mean it to have anything to do with religion, just faith.

The point of some verses that you quoted quoted were to tell Judaic Jews that they messed up big time and they will no longer (for now) be reached out to by God. And consequently they will be dispersed throughout the world. And this will naturally call various evils due to rejection of God.

The earlier verse that you mentioned had to do with persecution of believers (Jews or Gentiles).
The fact that today's Jews are/were persecuted is because of the earlier reason and not the latter.

Thanks,
Ed

Jesus said to Jerusalem they would not see him again until they (the Jews) would say "Jesus thier Messiah would say come in the name of the Lord" then the disciples asked him right after on Mt. Olives "Tell us, when will the end of age be" .. has nothing to do with persecution.. if anything.. Rome killed more Christians during the times after Jesus ascension.. and Rome topples down the Temple and taking all the goods in it.. which never belonged to them.. God did not order this.. in fact when God ordered an army of Israelites to march in to war, he told them not to touch or take any of the others belongings... we just will see.. won't we?

 

[GraceInHim]

Something called the Bible.

Well - seems you and others here who knock down Israel and the people who live there would rather see Iran kill them off.. you should read up on Iran.. the President is a mental case.. he thinks his people's Messiah is returning soon.. Mohammed.. very soon.. and the symbol in the middle of the Country's flag is for martydom, people who kill and die... suicide killers...

and Russia helps Iran out... The land is HOLY and will be this way.. this is where our Lord will return..

so nobody answered this.. where is Jesus returning to???????????????

 

[GraceInHim]

BTW.. this thread is about Israel... NOT Jewish people.

 

[Jesus Is Real]

BTW.. this thread is about Israel... NOT Jewish people.

So is this thread open to discussions and the like, other than just subject to questions and such. Just making sure what's what on this thread?

 

[GraceInHim]

So is this thread open to discussions and the like, other than just subject to questions and such. Just making sure what's what on this thread?

of course it is... LOL.. this is not congregation.. this forum is discussions.. mostly one against the other..

 

[Jesus Is Real]

so nobody answered this.. where is Jesus returning to???????????????

GraceInHim,


I think it's a progressive answer, in much patience.


________________________ ______________________
Zechariah says:
[bible]Zechariah 2:7[/bible]

Then if this occures they will get this Promise:
[bible]Zechariah 2:12-13[/bible]

Now, if you'll notice 'GraceInHim', that the Apostles and even Jesus spoke more about Zechariah 2:7 in a hint that if they don't deliver themselves from the way's of Babylon, which Revelation says has become a habitation of demons, they will never in Joy See the Lord giving others the Land.

It's a personal message to off of Israel, but even John the Baptist and Paul states plainly who is "Israel."

This land will be Literally "Holy" again once God removes the enemies off the land. This is so now "The Truth", and it was "The Truth" when God led the Children of Israel out of Egypt and into the wilderness to then once they learned how to 'War' to possess the land so that it can be 'Holy.' So Jesus being the TRUE PICTURE OF THIS and even our relationship with Him, does Israel get the land so that verse Zechariah 2:12-13 become fulfilled. It all still points to Jesus Christ and His Chosen People. Who is Jesus? He The Promised Land, the Holy Land that God wanted us to inherit so that we too could be Holy.


[bible]1 Peter 1:15[/bible]
Notice that even in 1 Peter we see Him actually speaking about
Zechariah 2:7 so that there will come Holiness to us and to the Land.
And the Whole Gospels and the Most of the Epistles setting in about
more so talking about Zech. 2:7, so that we can arrive to the end
of this chapter.



_____________
If Jesus is The Promised Land:
Then,.......He is Holy.

If We in Christ are to inherit Jesus as ours:
Then,......We are TO BE HOLY.

This was the ETERNAL MESSAGE that God wanted to PICTURE FORM
for the Children of Israel. For now, the whole world to see.
They were and they are our examples for TODAY, if we will hear His Voice.
_______________



P.S.
But, when Jesus does come back to Jerusalem, which will
be in bondage still as it is today, He comes making "War" with His enemies,
because the land is not being made Holy,.....this is probably why there is a
Huge Earth-quake when He sets His foot down because it's not Holy.

So, the land only had rest, when God drove them out of the land.
What's changed?

 

[Jesus Is Real]

of course it is... LOL.. this is not congregation.. this forum is discussions.. mostly one against the other..

Ok great thanks pumpkin!!


Although, I see it as 'one FOR' the other!!

 

[AdmirableArmstrong]

Israel has fought and won their wars. They deserve their own country, those who defend her. Israel's enemies are so many and so malevolent, that the courage shown by this small nation should have earned the respect of the whole world.

The Israelis show far more perception and strategy against their enemies than the Western giants of dubious wisdom in their own defense.

 

[OnTheWay]

Well - seems you and others here who knock down Israel and the people who live there would rather see Iran kill them off..

Straw man, and an absurd one at that. If you cannot defend your position then just make something up, hey?

you should read up on Iran.. the President is a mental case.. he thinks his people's Messiah is returning soon.. Mohammed.. very soon.. and the symbol in the middle of the Country's flag is for martydom, people who kill and die... suicide killers...

Kinda like Jews praising Dr. Brach Goldstein for shooting up a Mosque?
You really ought to read something about Islam before you make start telling others what they believe, as Muslims do not view Mohammed in this way.

and Russia helps Iran out... The land is HOLY and will be this way.. this is where our Lord will return..

In reality Russia is the leading nation is attempting to control Iran's necular program.
According to you Israel needs to be complete. For one, the modern secular state of Israel has never even come close to the original land area of ancient Israel. For two, they just gave away Gaza and the Jewish population is in decline all over. The other dispenslationist nonsense requires the temple to be rebuilt, and it's not going to happen.

so nobody answered this.. where is Jesus returning to???????????????

Moscow, I know this because somewhere in the book of Revelations it says so. Then he is going to lead a crusade to retake Constantinople.

 

[GraceInHim]

Moscow, I know this because somewhere in the book of Revelations it says so. Then he is going to lead a crusade to retake Constantinople.

This thread is about Israel not Jews... Christians live there also... sorry, you seem not to like the country.. but I can say more about Russia.. Gog & Magog will lead a Devil's crusade.. ya got that right but take the word Christian out of the sentence... oh you would like Jews killed??

you always seem to write the most cruel and arrogant words against a country that has suffered enough.. as I said Christians live there also..

 

[OnTheWay]

This thread is about Israel not Jews...

According to you there is no difference, so that makes absolutely no sense.

sorry, you seem not to like the country..

It's a country, in many ways just like other countires. However, the secular state of Israel does pursue courses of action that are not consistant with morality and being a civilized nation. The problem is not that I don't like Israel, the problem is your near worship of a secular state.

but I can say more about Russia.. Gog & Magog will lead a Devil's crusade.. ya got that right but take the word Christian out of the sentence... oh you would like Jews killed??

ROLF, seriously you really ought to listen to yourself. Yes, I am sure the economically crippled nation of Russia, which is having trouble with some primative Muslim rebels, is going to lead the "devil's crusade" because some other off the wall dispensationalist has decided that Moscow is the "city to the north." LOL
Being as you have no idea what or where "Gog or Magog" is referring to or where those locations are stop committing libel against the people of Russia.

you always seem to write the most cruel and arrogant words against a country that has suffered enough.. as I said Christians live there also..

Yes, Christians do live there and are mistreated on a regular basis:

Armenian archbishop quizzed over spat with yeshiva student​

By Amiram Barkat

Haaretz (Israeli newspaper) October 11, 2004

The Armenian archbishop in Israel, Nourhan Manougian, was questioned under warning by (Israeli) police yesterday after he slapped a yeshiva student during a procession marking the Exaltation of the Holy Cross in Jerusalem's Old City.

The archbishop slapped the student after the latter spat at the cross the Armenians were carrying and at Manougian himself. The incident developed into a brawl during which Manougian's ceremonial medallion, which has been used by Armenian archbishops since the 17th century, broke.

The yeshiva student was also detained for questioning.Police are now considering whether to initiate criminal proceedings against the Armenian archbishop and to charge him with assault. Meanwhile, the incident has sparked much anger among the clergy of the small Armenian community in Jerusalem.

Religious Jews, among them yeshiva students, customarily spit on the ground as a sign of disgust on seeing the cross. The Armenians, who live adjacent to the Jewish Quarter of the Old City, suffer from this phenomenon more than any of the other Christian sects in the Old City.

Manougian says he and his colleagues have already learned to live with it. "I no longer get worked up by people who turn around and spit when I pass them by in the street; but to approach in the middle of a religious procession and to spit on the cross in front of all the priests of the sect is humiliation that we are not prepared to accept," he notes.

A policeman is customarily posted to guard the Armenians' religious processions, but doesn't generally do anything to prevent the spitting. The Armenians took the matter up with Interior Minister Avraham Poraz some seven months ago, but nothing has been done about till now.

"The Israeli government is anti-Christian," Manougian charges. "It cries out in the face of any harm done to Jews all over the world, but is simply not interested at all when we are humiliated on an almost daily basis"...

Other mistreat of Christians by Jews according to Haaretz:
"A few weeks ago, an elderly man wearing a yarmulke spat on a senior Greek Orthodox cleric who was entering a government office in Jerusalem's Givat Shaul section."

"Stars of David were spray-painted on the entrance to the Monastery of the Cross, not far from the Knesset. The Holy Trinity Russian Orthodox Cathedral, near Jerusalem police headquarters, in the so-called Russian Compound in downtown Jerusalem, suffered similar vandalism."

"Churches located in several Orthodox neighborhoods in Jerusalem complained that neighbors had thrown garbage into their yards."

Perhaps Arab terrorists wouldn't be such a problem if the IDF wasn't too busy shooting monks:
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=150705&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

 

[GraceInHim]

According to you there is no difference, so that makes absolutely no sense.



It's a country, in many ways just like other countires. However, the secular state of Israel does pursue courses of action that are not consistant with morality and being a civilized nation. The problem is not that I don't like Israel, the problem is your near worship of a secular state.



ROLF, seriously you really ought to listen to yourself. Yes, I am sure the economically crippled nation of Russia, which is having trouble with some primative Muslim rebels, is going to lead the "devil's crusade" because some other off the wall dispensationalist has decided that Moscow is the "city to the north." LOL
Being as you have no idea what or where "Gog or Magog" is referring to or where those locations are stop committing libel against the people of Russia.



Yes, Christians do live there and are mistreated on a regular basis:

Armenian archbishop quizzed over spat with yeshiva student​

By Amiram Barkat

Haaretz (Israeli newspaper) October 11, 2004

The Armenian archbishop in Israel, Nourhan Manougian, was questioned under warning by (Israeli) police yesterday after he slapped a yeshiva student during a procession marking the Exaltation of the Holy Cross in Jerusalem's Old City.

The archbishop slapped the student after the latter spat at the cross the Armenians were carrying and at Manougian himself. The incident developed into a brawl during which Manougian's ceremonial medallion, which has been used by Armenian archbishops since the 17th century, broke.

The yeshiva student was also detained for questioning.Police are now considering whether to initiate criminal proceedings against the Armenian archbishop and to charge him with assault. Meanwhile, the incident has sparked much anger among the clergy of the small Armenian community in Jerusalem.

Religious Jews, among them yeshiva students, customarily spit on the ground as a sign of disgust on seeing the cross. The Armenians, who live adjacent to the Jewish Quarter of the Old City, suffer from this phenomenon more than any of the other Christian sects in the Old City.

Manougian says he and his colleagues have already learned to live with it. "I no longer get worked up by people who turn around and spit when I pass them by in the street; but to approach in the middle of a religious procession and to spit on the cross in front of all the priests of the sect is humiliation that we are not prepared to accept," he notes.

A policeman is customarily posted to guard the Armenians' religious processions, but doesn't generally do anything to prevent the spitting. The Armenians took the matter up with Interior Minister Avraham Poraz some seven months ago, but nothing has been done about till now.

"The Israeli government is anti-Christian," Manougian charges. "It cries out in the face of any harm done to Jews all over the world, but is simply not interested at all when we are humiliated on an almost daily basis"...

Other mistreat of Christians by Jews according to Haaretz:
"A few weeks ago, an elderly man wearing a yarmulke spat on a senior Greek Orthodox cleric who was entering a government office in Jerusalem's Givat Shaul section."

"Stars of David were spray-painted on the entrance to the Monastery of the Cross, not far from the Knesset. The Holy Trinity Russian Orthodox Cathedral, near Jerusalem police headquarters, in the so-called Russian Compound in downtown Jerusalem, suffered similar vandalism."

"Churches located in several Orthodox neighborhoods in Jerusalem complained that neighbors had thrown garbage into their yards."

Perhaps Arab terrorists wouldn't be such a problem if the IDF wasn't too busy shooting monks:
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=150705&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

Israel will be in God's hands.. you nor I or anyone on earth can do anything about it.. if you think God has left his eye off them.. you should read the Prophets more.. I speak for the Christians that live there.. apparently you want to make this about Jews... you think Hitler is with God???

 

[OnTheWay]

Israel will be in God's hands.. you nor I or anyone on earth can do anything about it.. if you think God has left his eye off them.. you should read the Prophets more.. I speak for the Christians that live there.. apparently you want to make this about Jews... you think Hitler is with God???

Yes, here comes Hitler again. I suppose this is where you have to go when arguing something so completely inane. I don't know if Hitler is with God or not, it isn't for me to say. The fact of the matter is that the Israeli government, whom you have on countless occasions said is the same as the Jewish people (so your words, not mine as I openly admit that the actions of the secular state of Israel do not represent the Jewish people) doesn't seem to have much of a problem with this type of behavior.
I think you ought to spend less time worrying about the old testament and more time worrying about the New Testament. There is NO savlation is the law.
No, you don't speak for the Christians that live in Israel and do not say that you do again.
Some more interesting Scripture from our Lord Jesus Christ:
Matthew 11:20-24
Then He began to reproach the towns in which most of His miracles had been worked, because they refused to repent.
Alas for you, Chorazin. Alas for you, Bethsaida. For if the mircles done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Still, I tell you that it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on Judgement Day then for you.
And as for you, Capernaum, did you want to be raised as high as heaven? You shall be flung down to hell. For if the mircales done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have been standing yet.
Still, I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on Judgement Day than for you.

The New Covenant is made with the body of Christ, which is His Church. There is no longer Jew or Greek.

 

[GraceInHim]

One the way..

still love you.. you are a brother in Christ..

*hugs*