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Before Israel and way before the church there were believers, such as Job.holdon said:
Yet none of the OT believers went straight to heaven. Except for that guy that walked with God for 300 years. Forgot his name.
We know of at least one "holding place" for the believers, Abraham's Bosom.
Then, Christ collected them all and carried them (on the train of his robe) to heaven that he opened up for the masses.
Job believed in Christ that was to come -
JOB 19:25 I know that my Redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand upon the earth.
Doesn't this make him a member of one body?
And isn't that body the church?
EPH 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
I could not find that in Mt.16.holdon said:
I disagree.holdon said:
It is clear from the texts that the Israelites and the Gentiles are 2 different entities.
RO 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
And the ending of v.12 does bring an indication that Israelites will believe.
So there is a separation from the Gentiles that will believe and the Israelites that will believe.
Here it is presented clearly (I think) that the spiritual Israel includes spiritual Israelites and the spiritual Gentiles.
And both parties are the church, as defined numerous times in the NT.
RO 9:6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."
... and also here. "All Israel" v.26 will includes the Israelites and the Gentiles v.25.
RO 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved,...
And below, both are the members of one body.
EPH 3:6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
In NT that body is called Church -
EPH 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
... since there only one body, not two.
In Hebrews it presents what is happening with the new covenant.
HEB 8:10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
HEB 8:11 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, `Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
HEB 8:12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."
HEB 8:13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
In v.11 we see that no longer "a man" will say this and that. "A man" applies to all who would have the laws written on their hearts.
Also, there is a new covenant defined and the old is obsolete v.13.
So, the Israelites are told to look forward to a new concept. A certain unity and equality with Gentiles.
GAL 3:26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
And that one body is called a church, as shown above.
Having said that, one cannot overlook these texts.
God did develop a personal relationship with the Jews due to them being descendants of the Patriarchs.
RO 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
And that leads to the texts of the Revelation. Here we see the wife of Christ. She is called Jerusalem, the Holy City. And on the gates are the names of 12 tribes of Israel.
We also see that the wife of the Lamb is also a church. Same wife.
So the Isael and Church is the same thing.
It must be.
Yet on the gates there will be literally written the 12 tribes of Israel.
REV 21:9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel.
And we have the text of the 144,000 that are specifically identified tribe by tribe.
REV 7:4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. .....
So the conclusion is that Israel and Church is the same entity, same body, same wife.
Yet God will keep his promise fully and also save the ethnic Isael (144,000).
I do not see eny indication that Israel and Church are two separate entities.
And we are all called Christians.
Apostle Peter (a Jew) strongly stressed that we are to be proud to be called Christians and not to be ashamed to bear that name.
1PE 4:16 However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name.
We fight over nothing.
Thanks,
Ed
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