Its always been about Israel..
Rom_11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
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Israeli News thread
- Thread starter Shocker
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Its always been about Israel..
Rom_11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
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That's right.
Similarly, in Romans 11:25, the Gentiles are genetic Gentiles, the people addressed throughout Romans 11:13-31, who aren't genetic Jews like Paul the apostle (Romans 11:1,14). Yet both individual genetic Jewish believers (natural branches) and individual genetic Gentile believers (engrafted wild branches) are branches in the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24). For when Gentiles become believers they "come in" (Romans 11:25) to be part of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). The fruit of each individual branch would be the good works of each individual (Colossians 1:10). It's the genetic Jews who are "blind in part", meaning that some of them are spiritually blind while others aren't (Romans 11:7-10). For "blindness in part is happened to Israel" (Romans 11:25) in its genetic sense (Romans 11:1,14), that is, genetic Jews (Acts 22:3). Also, in Romans 11:25-26, "Israel" includes elect genetic Jews who aren't yet believers (Romans 11:28), but will become believers eventually (Romans 11:26).
When Paul says "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26) immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30), just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18) during the 2nd half of the tribulation.
Immediately after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-30), all the still-living unsaved elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).
And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it's by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).
Also, if the genetic Jews who will become saved at the 2nd coming had been religious Jews, they won't continue to mistakenly try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, because they will then be believers in the truth that on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).
All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21) or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).
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Interplanner
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Rom 11 is present tense. it is not prediction, it is prodding. he is spurring Israel then and there to be in God's mission. The idea this is futurism is very poor attention. The conclusion in the end of the chapter is that all of God's dealings with ethnos of any kind are now a thing of the past. "Now" is emphatically used 3x to underline this.
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That's not the point at all. Think about how many Gentiles are in the line of Christ.
Think about the fact that any Gentile man could become a Jew by becoming circumcised and eating the Passover. Ever read Exodus 12:43-49?
The point Paul is making in Romans 11 is that all who are saved (whether Jew or Gentile), are Israel.
You can't ignore what Paul said in Romans 2:28, 29...or Romans 9:6-8. That all has to be considered also...as well as the "natural" and "wild" olive trees becoming "one tree".
That's how "all Israel" will be saved!!! Paul sums it up quoting Isaiah 59:20, 21...as well as Jeremiah 31:33.
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ONLY the Tribe of Judah is Jewish - the ONLY Tribe to maintain its identity - Genesis 49.
The rest of the Tribes, which still exist today, are "Christian".
The rest of the Tribes, which still exist today, are "Christian".
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Yes I am! That you can't understand it, is another issue for you. Paul paints the picture pretty clear in Romans 2:28, 29:
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
Now I know it may be hard to grasp...but paul just told you the TRUE Jew is one who is circumcised in THEIR HEART...that is salvation.
Paul isn't saying anything God didn't say to Israel in the first place...Deuteronomy 10:16:
6 So circumcise your heart, and stiffen your neck no longer.
So what you've missed in what Paul said, is that coming to Christ makes one a "Spiritual Jew"!!!
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Gal_3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Col_3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
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In Genesis 49, Jacob prophesized that Judah would be the ONLY Tribe to maintain its identity. They are the Jewish people.
Yet, the other Tribes STILL exist, otherwise they wouldn't be mentioned in Revelations, except for Dan.
The Tribes of Joseph, would be the most powerful nations, which will never be conquered - the United States, Great Britain and her "children" - Canada, Australia, etc.
I believe the Tribe of Zabulon - a sea faring Tribe - to be Spain, Portugal, and her "children" - Central and South America, etc.
The Tribe of Dan, from which the antichrist will come from, is Italy. The judicial system of the Roman Empire was so fantastic that it was copied by Great Britain and the U.S.
The Tribe of Reuben, which NEVER will be first, might be Ireland.
If you know your history, you will know that when the Assyrians conquered the Kingdom of Israel, they forced the people to leave and they were NEVER allowed to return. They became known as the "10 Lost Tribes".
However, God KNOWS where they are.
Of the 144,000 members of the Elect, 12,000 will be Jewish and the rest will be Christian.
MOST people, very probably including yourself, find Genesis 49 to be incomprehensible mumbo jumbo. They are Jacob's prophecies from God concerning Jacob's son's Tribes. I believe this chapter to be the very cornerstone of Biblical prophecy.
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You left out part of it: Let's let Galatians chime in also:
Galatians 5:26-29
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.
Pretty simple when you let the scriptures speak! This is why Paul said in Romans 9:6-8:
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.”
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
Now...who is "THE PROMISE"? Once again Paul in Galatians 3:16
16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.
Jesus is the PROMISED SEED Shocker, this is why EVERYONE, whether male or female, Jew or Gentile, or slave or free, who receives Christ ARE HEIRS as well as descendants of Abraham.
That is the Israel of God!!!
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Interplanner
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Amen, Ebed.
It did sound like Shocker was getting close. Is it a matter of believing the right thing but for the wrong reason?
This happened re global warming to Rush Limbaugh lately. He had the right conclusions but a geologist told him he got there wrong. It was very interesting to hear to how to get there right.
It did sound like Shocker was getting close. Is it a matter of believing the right thing but for the wrong reason?
This happened re global warming to Rush Limbaugh lately. He had the right conclusions but a geologist told him he got there wrong. It was very interesting to hear to how to get there right.
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Interplanner
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Futurism is the default view of the Bible when you think it is a set of scattered sound bytes about the future.
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You left out part of it: Let's let Galatians chime in also:
Galatians 5:26-29
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abrahams descendants, heirs according to promise.
Pretty simple when you let the scriptures speak! This is why Paul said in Romans 9:6-8:
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abrahams descendants, but: through Isaac your descendants will be named.
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
Now...who is "THE PROMISE"? Once again Paul in Galatians 3:16
16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, And to seeds, as referring to many, but rather to one, And to your seed, that is, Christ.
Jesus is the PROMISED SEED Shocker, this is why EVERYONE, whether male or female, Jew or Gentile, or slave or free, who receives Christ ARE HEIRS as well as descendants of Abraham.
That is the Israel of God!!!
Sorry, there is no verse that calls Christians "Israel".
But it does say "Christians".
Act_11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Act_26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
1Pe_4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
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That's because you have to read the scriptures...as well as engage your mind.
Paul said clearly we are "Abraham's descendants" and "heirs according to the promise" (who is Jesus)...how then are we any different from Jews who are in Christ?
Paul also said "They are NOT ALL Israel, who are descended from Israel".
All you need do is think.
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Sorry ebed, you are a Christian, there is no point in being a Jew.
You are simply an heir to the promise, it doesn't make you Jewish.
Gal_3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
We aren't literally Abrahams seed, we are gentiles.
I really cant see why you would downgrade yourself to Jewish when being a Christian is the end result even for the Jews.
They will be Christians when they come to Christ, and it will happen..
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That's exactly what I figured you'd do, however look back at yourself, because you were saying a few posts back there is neither Jew nor Greek...and so on.
This is what you do...you run around scripture instead of really examining scripture.
Scripture says "if you be in Christ YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED and heirs according to the promise".
So you're pretty much in a conundrum of running away from scripture, when it's convenient for you...and you're pretty adept at doing so.
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If I wasn't a Christian, then I would be a gentile.
There is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ.
There is a reason its doesn't say "if you be in Christ you are a Jew".
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Yet one still has to reconcile scripture saying "He is a Jew who is one inwardly"...and again you run away from scripture instead of to scripture.
You have to deal with "they are NOT all Israel who are descended from Israel".
You have to deal with "If you belong to Christ, you are Abraham's seed".
You have to deal with "we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,".
However I understand...
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