Israeli News thread

[Shocker]

Yet one still has to reconcile scripture saying "He is a Jew who is one inwardly"...and again you run away from scripture instead of to scripture.

You have to deal with "they are NOT all Israel who are descended from Israel".

You have to deal with "If you belong to Christ, you are Abraham's seed".

You have to deal with "we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,".

However I understand...

Those are things you are dealing with..

Im happy as a Christian..

 

[Shocker]

Yet one still has to reconcile scripture saying "He is a Jew who is one inwardly"...and again you run away from scripture instead of to scripture.

You have to deal with "they are NOT all Israel who are descended from Israel".

You have to deal with "If you belong to Christ, you are Abraham's seed".

You have to deal with "we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,".

However I understand...

Rom 9:7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."

This is referring to the Jews.

 

[ebedmelech]

Rom 9:7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."

This is referring to the Jews.

Pretty selective with that text...so let's include ALL of it:
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.”
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Now what?

 

[Shocker]

Pretty selective with that text...so let's include ALL of it:
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.”
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Now what?

Perhaps a clearer translation.

Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,

Gentiles are not descended from Israel. So this verse is not talking about Gentiles. Its literally saying that not every Jew is an Israelite simply because they were descended of Israel.

Rom 9:7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named."

Gentiles are not genetic offspring of Abraham.

Rom 9:8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.



How you interpret this to mean "Christians are Jewish Israel" is beyond me..


Two different spirits at work here, clearly..

 

[Interplanner]

Shocker, don't read so little. Go on to v24, not that anything in between is unimportant. But you'll see who the "us" of Paul's Israel is, supported by 4 OT quotes.
By itself, yes, v6 sounds like subgroup. Not so, by the time you complete the chapter.

Rom 9-11 explains why so few Jews believe. Or why the human tendency is to think many of them would believe. It seems like they would as a group. But God does not have groups other than those who have faith. No races, classes, genders. No ethnos. It never was about the ethnos (people-group). The examples of 11:1-4 show that. The real Israel knows the Redeemer came to Zion for our sins, historically. That Israel is from all races.

There are not two peoples or programs, which is a foundation of futurism, dispensationalism and literalism. That's why it does not work.

 

[Shocker]

Shocker, don't read so little. Go on to v24, not that anything in between is unimportant. But you'll see who the "us" of Paul's Israel is, supported by 4 OT quotes.
By itself, yes, v6 sounds like subgroup. Not so, by the time you complete the chapter.

Rom 9-11 explains why so few Jews believe. Or why the human tendency is to think many of them would believe. It seems like they would as a group. But God does not have groups other than those who have faith. No races, classes, genders. No ethnos. It never was about the ethnos (people-group). The examples of 11:1-4 show that. The real Israel knows the Redeemer came to Zion for our sins, historically. That Israel is from all races.

There are not two peoples or programs, which is a foundation of futurism, dispensationalism and literalism. That's why it does not work.

And you are right, in Christ there is only one people, Gods people.


Otherwise, you are a Jew or a Gentile..

Simple.

 

[ebedmelech]

Perhaps a clearer translation.

Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,

Gentiles are not descended from Israel. So this verse is not talking about Gentiles. Its literally saying that not every Jew is an Israelite simply because they were descended of Israel.

Only if you're going to ignore Romans 2:28:29:
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
That clearly says if the heart is circumcised...one is a Jew.

Then there's Romans 4:13:
13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 4:16, 17:
16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
17 (as it is written, “A father of many nations have I made you”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

Rom 9:7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named."

Gentiles are not genetic offspring of Abraham.

Rom 9:8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Nope, The children of the flesh speak of those descended by fleshly relations!

The "children of promise" are those Jew or Gentile, who are descendants because just as Abraham did, they came to God through faith in Christ, and they are spiritual descendants.

How you interpret this to mean "Christians are Jewish Israel" is beyond me..


Two different spirits at work here, clearly..

I know. You ignore the spiritual application of the text which really starts with Romans 2:28, 29.

Paul makes the consistent appeal all through his writings that it's not about flesh, but the Spirit. He does exactly as Jesus did with "the woman at the well"...who just as you do now...kept going to literal things.

 

[ebedmelech]

Perhaps a clearer translation.

Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,

Gentiles are not descended from Israel. So this verse is not talking about Gentiles. Its literally saying that not every Jew is an Israelite simply because they were descended of Israel.

Only if you're going to ignore Romans 2:28:29:
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
That clearly says if the heart is circumcised...one is a Jew.

Then there's Romans 4:13:
13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 4:16, 17:
16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
17 (as it is written, “A father of many nations have I made you”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

Rom 9:7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named."

Gentiles are not genetic offspring of Abraham.

Rom 9:8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Nope, The children of the flesh speak of those descended by fleshly relations!

The "children of promised" are those Jew or Gentile, who are descendants because just as Abraham did, they came to God through faith in Christ, and they are spiritual descendants.

How you interpret this to mean "Christians are Jewish Israel" is beyond me..


Two different spirits at work here, clearly..

I know. You ignore the spiritual application of the text which really starts with Romans 2:28, 29.

Paul makes the consistent appeal all through his writings that it's not about flesh, but the Spirit. He does exactly as Jesus did with "the woman at the well"...who just as you do now...kept going to literal things.

 

[Shocker]

Nope, The children of the flesh speak of those descended by fleshly relations!

The "children of promise" are those Jew or Gentile, who are descendants because just as Abraham did, they came to God through faith in Christ, and they are spiritual descendants..

Ok, just so we aren't arguing the same side, I need to acknowledge that I agree completely with the above.


Not sure where the complication is coming into play here..


What exactly are you advocating?

 

[Interplanner]

That there are not two peoples or two programs in the overall scheme of the Bible. That belief is the foundation of futurism and dispensationalism, but it is not rational (grounded in the Bible).

Shock, I can't find wherre you said what does anything I said about mt 24 have to do with anything, but I have a major piece of information for you and will put it in its own thread about Mt 10 and 24

 

[ebedmelech]

Ok, just so we aren't arguing the same side, I need to acknowledge that I agree completely with the above.


Not sure where the complication is coming into play here..


What exactly are you advocating?

Look at the passage of Romans 9...break it down:

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

This relates to the "fleshly descendants" of Israel. The apostles is asserting clearly that just because one is descended from Israel doesn't mean they are Israel.

7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.”
Once again (from another perspective), the apostle asserts because one is descended from Abraham doesn't them children. (He knows the argument).

*It was the same argument John the Baptist warned them about in Matthew 3:9.

*Jesus had the very same argument with the Pharisees in John 8:31-58.

*Paul has clearly taught in Romans 4 (using Abraham as the quintessential example), that Abraham's descendants are all those who have the faith of Abraham which draws a line in the sand! One can be descended from Abraham by way or flesh and it be of no benefit.

However, the one who has the FAITH of Abraham, are SPIRITUALLY the descendants of Abraham. They are the true descendants.

That's why the apostles distinguishes stating there a "children of the flesh" and "children of promise".

The conclusion of "they are not all Israel" implies there are others that are Israel!!! They are those that are the "children of promise"...Christ is the promise..and He makes us descendants of Israel spiritually.

That's why the apostle makes the point that Gentiles who come to Christ are "fellow citizens" with the saints"...Ephesians 2:19.

Pretty clear when you stay with the apostles teaching!

 

[Shocker]

The conclusion of "they are not all Israel" implies there are others that are Israel!!!

We are pretty much in agreement except for the above.

Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,


All I see this verse saying is that not all Israelites are truly part of Israel...


What I don't see is where it says Gentiles are called anything other than gentile or Christian.

Sure, we are fellow heirs to the promise, and I see "why" you are making the connection, but the Bible would come out and say it if It wanted Christians to call themselves Israel.


Just how I see it..

Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

 

[Interplanner]

Shock,
futurism/dispensationalism is basically what Judaism did with the OT. Jn 12:34. It's foundation is 2 peoples/2 programs (I'm not saying Judaism envisioned 2 programs! but definitely 2 peoples).

Basic dispensationalism has always taught 2/2 because it is at odds with NT theology. This was also what the Jesuits taught. (The Jesuits were the counter-reformation's leaders). But in the mid 1800s in England, other small groups (Darby, Scofield) started teaching it as Protestants because they thought it stood on its own. Jewish nationalism also was born in the mid 1800s, essentially saying 'we can't achieve our destiny without living there.' That actually reinforces 2/2, which the NT does not.

 

[Shocker]

Shock,
futurism/dispensationalism is basically what Judaism did with the OT. Jn 12:34. It's foundation is 2 peoples/2 programs (I'm not saying Judaism envisioned 2 programs! but definitely 2 peoples).

Basic dispensationalism has always taught 2/2 because it is at odds with NT theology. This was also what the Jesuits taught. (The Jesuits were the counter-reformation's leaders). But in the mid 1800s in England, other small groups (Darby, Scofield) started teaching it as Protestants because they thought it stood on its own. Jewish nationalism also was born in the mid 1800s, essentially saying 'we can't achieve our destiny without living there.' That actually reinforces 2/2, which the NT does not.

I am not a futurist or dispensationalist.

 

[Interplanner]

Of course you are. Define your terms.

If you think there is a separate program for Israel the race, you are both.

 

[Shocker]

Of course you are. Define your terms.

If you think there is a separate program for Israel the race, you are both.

I disagree with the doctrine of dispensationalism.

So I doubt Im a dispensationalist, but thanks anyways..

 

[Interplanner]

what is the doctrine?

 

[Shocker]

what is the doctrine?

Something to the effect that God has different periods in which grace was dispensed specifically given the "time" period and people.

Ive only read a little bit about it, but I really don't see it as a doctrine to build ones faith around..




I believe that Gods grace is through faith alone, as it has always been..

There is no need for "dispensational periods"..

 

[Interplanner]

That's close. It means specific things about Israel and the nations--to them.

 

[Shocker]

That's close. It means specific things about Israel and the nations--to them.

I don't believe that the Jews in Israel are part of prophecy because of dispensationalism. I didn't even know what dispensationalism was until after I came to Christ.


I believe it because the Bible plainly states it.


The Jews haven't been brought to Christ, this is a future prophecy.