Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Desk trauma]

The Gaza Strip is not a walled ghetto

Furthermore, Gaza is not only sealed off by Israel

Pick one.

 

[Desk trauma]

Objectively speaking, there is hardly any alternative to invading Gaza, because that is where Hamas and its terrorists are based, where their headquarters and infrastructure are located. If you want to deal Hamas a serious blow, you can only do so in the Gaza Strip, not from outside.

I don’t want to be involved in the conflict at all but am forced at gun point to prop up Israel.

 

[Benaiah468]

Unacceptable. Hitting the same target after 1st responders move in is an act of a terrorist nation.

I consider your statement to be a completely unbalanced and malicious insinuation to accuse an entire nation of terrorism.

A terrorist state denies, covers or distorts the facts.
A terrorist state shifts the blame onto others.
A terrorist state does not investigate incidents.

Regarding this case none of this applies to Israel.

Israel values the work of journalists, medical personnel and all civilians.

Netanyahu openly stated that this was a tragic accident. The tragedy occurred despite efforts to prevent harm to civilians. The air strike was directed against high-ranking Hamas members.

"The military authorities are conducting a thorough investigation",

the Prime Minister's Office said in a statement on the tragic incident.

Brigadier General Effie Defrin, spokesperson for the Israel Defence Forces (IDF), made it clear from the outset, that the IDF does not deliberately target civilians.

He explained that Hamas bears ultimate responsibility both for starting the war and for prolonging it by continuing to hold hostages in the Gaza Strip. He emphasised that the IDF would fulfil its duty to investigate the incident in accordance with international law. The Chief of Staff, Eyal Zamir, had ordered an immediate investigation into the incident. He said, that they will present their findings as transparently as possible.

The Israeli military has now announced the initial findings of its investigation. According to these findings, the attack was carried out because of a camera attributed to Hamas. Troops had identified a camera that had been positioned by Hamas to observe its own forces and to carry out terrorist activities against the armed forces. The conclusions were supported by further information, including documented military use of hospitals, including Nasser Hospital, by Hamas, states the final report on the initial investigation.

The Chief of Staff accuses six of the 20 people killed in the attacks of terrorism. At the same time, he expressed regret for any harm caused to civilians. Zamir announced a further investigation into the approval process prior to the attack and the decision-making process on the ground.

Reporting from an active war zone involves enormous risks, especially in a war with a terrorist organisation such as Hamas, which cynically hides behind the civilian population.

After the Oct 7 terror onslaught, Hamas fighters vanished underground. When they emerged again, they were no longer dressed in the military uniforms they had worn to invade Israel, but in civilian clothes, ready to launch attacks while hidden in plain sight among the public.

What does not apply to Israel, but does apply to Hamas:

In Oct two years ago, a fatal explosion occurred in the car park of Al-Ahli Hospital in the Gaza Strip when a rocket struck. Immediately after the explosion, Hamas accused Israel of firing on the hospital. The terrorist Hamas militia spoke of more than 470 fatalities. Hamas's interpretation spread immediately and worldwide.

When asked for evidence, the head of the Hamas government's media office, Salama Maruf, wrote in a message to the New York Times:

"Who says we are obliged to present the remains of every rocket that killed our people? In general, you can come and see for yourself based on the evidence we have."

The cause of the explosion at the hospital turned out to be a misguided rocket fired by the militant "Palestinian" organisation Islamic Jihad from a cemetery behind the hospital.

 

[Benaiah468]

Pick one.

The Gaza Strip is not a walled ghetto

Furthermore, Gaza is not only sealed off by Israel

The Gaza Strip has been entirely under "Palestinian" control since 2005 and functions like a small state.

If you want to enter Israel, you need a visa (permit). Many "Palestinians" have one because they work in Israel and receive medical treatment there.

Before Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip in 2007, there were 120,000 "Palestinian" workers in Israel, which provide the local economy with 2 billion dollars budget every year. Before the second "Palestinian" intifada in 2000, more than 40,000 workers from the Gaza Strip spoke fluent Hebrew, a language they had acquired while working in Israel in various fields. Israel revoked work permits for about 13,000 "Palestinian" workers from the Gaza Strip to work legally in Israel following the Hamas attack on 7 Oct.

The bitter truth is that some of them carried out the espionage work that Hamas needed to prepare for the recent massacres, a huge breach of trust. Anyone can read in Hamas' charter that the government in Gaza wants to destroy Israel. That is why Israel keeps the border relatively closed and pays close attention to who enters the country.

Many countries do the same, by the way. Egypt has also sealed its border.

The Warsaw Ghetto served as a precursor to the complete extermination of the Jews. Israel does not have extermination camps.

The inhabitants of the Warsaw Ghetto never massacred innocent civilians. Never. Of course, Nazi soldiers were targeted. Attacks on military personnel are legal under the laws of war. But as terrible as conditions in the Warsaw Ghetto were, and as desperate as its inhabitants were, they never attacked innocent civilians. Hamas showed its true barbaric face when it cold-bloodedly killed a thousand innocent Israeli civilians.

If Israel could believe that the "Palestinians" would become responsible members of a democracy, some believe they would be offered citizenship. However, since a culture of resistance and hatred is deeply rooted in Gaza society, such a measure is unlikely.

It would be wonderful if Jews and "Palestinians" could participate in building a nation as equal citizens. But how can a sustainable society be maintained when a significant portion of the population finds secular democratic rule with Jews ethnically and religiously repugnant?

 

[essentialsaltes]

UN human rights staff urge leadership to declare Israel’s war in Gaza a genocide​

The letter, seen by the Guardian, says that based on the “available evidence and authoritative assessments by the UN-appointed experts, as well as legal and [international humanitarian law] professionals, the legal threshold [for genocide] has been met. [We] therefore urge the Office to state the legal characterization publicly.”

The 1,100-word letter, signed by about a quarter of the 2,000 staff of the Geneva- and New York-based Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR), says the Israeli offensive in Gaza meets the legal threshold of genocide and that this means “arms sales, transfers and related logistical or financial support to Israeli authorities” constitutes a clear breach of international law by all those involved.

 

[Benaiah468]

UN human rights staff urge leadership to declare Israel’s war in Gaza a genocide​

Those who blame Israel for the deaths in Gaza refuse to see the obvious: Hamas is the real culprit. Under international law, the terrorist organization ranks among humanity's worst enemies.

It is one of the most perfidious distortions of our time: while Hamas openly declares its goal of destroying Israel and keeping the civilian population in fear and terror, international voices accuse not the terrorists, but the Jewish state. The images from Gaza, destroyed houses, suffering families, are being exploited to demonize Israel. But anyone who takes the law seriously cannot ignore a simple truth: Hamas is responsible for the suffering in Gaza.

Legally, the situation is clear. Terrorist organizations such as Hamas have been considered "hostes humani generis", enemies of all humanity, for centuries. Those who deliberately target civilians, who abuse children as human shields, who use rape, torture, and hostage-taking as instruments of war, forfeit any right to invoke "liberation" or "self-determination." International law clearly distinguishes between attack and defense, between legitimate combat operations and intentional crimes.

Israel is not the aggressor here, but rather a state defending itself and its citizens and in doing so, protecting the international legal order. Every attack, every rocket, every perfidious use of hospitals as weapons depots is not only an attack on Israel, but on the very idea of a civilized world.

Since its founding, Hamas has not spent a single day trying to build a peaceful community. Israel's withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 would have provided an opportunity to build schools, infrastructure, and a functioning economy. Instead, those in power invested in tunnel systems, rocket production, and the cult of death. They relied on martyr myths and the absurd idea that bloodshed would bring eternal life. With this religiously embellished nihilism, peaceful coexistence is impossible.

The fact that Israel causes civilian casualties in its defensive operations is a bitter reality, but not intentional. In legal terms, there is no "mens rea," no intent. Hamas, on the other hand, bases its entire strategy on precisely this intent: civilians are to die, Jews as well as its own population, because only these images serve its own narrative. With every "Palestinian" child driven to its death, Hamas believes it is increasing political pressure on Israel. It is a despicable but coldly calculated logic.

However, international law does not recognize any excuse for such crimes. The principles of distinction, proportionality, and military necessity apply to states as well as to insurgents. Anyone who, like Hamas, deliberately misuses hospitals, schools, and residential buildings as cover is committing "perfidy", a serious violation of the laws of war that is clearly defined in the Geneva Conventions. This guilt cannot be relativized, glossed over, or shifted onto Israel.

The international community therefore not only has the opportunity, but also the duty to punish Hamas. This is not a regional conflict, but a crime against humanity. Those who spare the perpetrators are complicit. Those who seek to blame Israel undermine the foundations of international law.

In the sober language of justice, truth is exonerating. For Israel, this means that its defense against Hamas is not an act of aggression, but the only possible response to an enemy that flatly denies the Jewish state's right to exist. The real perpetrators are sitting in the bunkers of Gaza, not in the offices of Jerusalem.

In the end, we are left with an uncomfortable but inevitable realization: there will be no peace until "Palestinian" society openly renounces the logic of terror. As long as Hamas is celebrated and excused, as long as the international stage willingly accepts its lies, Gaza will remain a battlefield. Those who truly want peace must acknowledge the truth and that truth is that Hamas is not liberation, but crime.

 

[rjs330]

UN human rights staff urge leadership to declare Israel’s war in Gaza a genocide​

The letter, seen by the Guardian, says that based on the “available evidence and authoritative assessments by the UN-appointed experts, as well as legal and [international humanitarian law] professionals, the legal threshold [for genocide] has been met. [We] therefore urge the Office to state the legal characterization publicly.”

The 1,100-word letter, signed by about a quarter of the 2,000 staff of the Geneva- and New York-based Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR), says the Israeli offensive in Gaza meets the legal threshold of genocide and that this means “arms sales, transfers and related logistical or financial support to Israeli authorities” constitutes a clear breach of international law by all those involved.

Thats utter nonsense. This is not a genocide. This is a war against one of the worst terrorist organizations the world has ever seen. A terrorist organizations that use hospitals, schools, homes as terrorist bases to attack from and use as shields. An organization that deliberately kills civilians and hides among them for the express purpose of forcing Isreal to weigh the problems of civilians dying while trying to kill Hamas fighters and leaders. Israel does not deliberately kill civilians to kill civilians. Hamas does. Israel has tried to move civilians out of the battle zones. Hamas went with them. Israel is trying to get relief to people and Hamas is attacking the convoys and the civilians. Its Hamas, it has always been Hamas and Israel is defending itself, which it has a right and obligation to do.

 

[Benaiah468]

The only way to make Israel look worse than Hamas is to allege that it was acting to eradicate the "Palestinian" people. Israel’s foreign ministry has told Reuters it doesn`t respond to internal UN employees’ letters

“even if they are false, baseless, and blinded by obsessive hatred towards Israel”.

The UN has long had a glaring anti-Israel bias, advancing biased and one-sided efforts to isolate and delegitimize the Jewish state. This anti-Israel prejudice has escalated dramatically since Hamas’ Oct 7 attack.

Across UN agencies, officials have failed to uphold the body’s charter of neutrality and impartiality. They have repeatedly neglected to condemn Hamas’ massacre and in some cases have even justified the gruesome attacks. Most alarmingly, UN staff directly participated in the Hamas’ terrorist attacks.

 

[wing2000]

I consider your statement to be a completely unbalanced and malicious insinuation to accuse an entire nation of terrorism.

Benjamin Netanyahu and the far right he plays to are terrorsits. Many Israelis, including former defense officials, want him gone.

 

[Benaiah468]

Benjamin Netanyahu and the far right he plays to are terrorsits. Many Israelis, including former defense officials, want him gone.

I find it strange that those who condemn terrorism against "Palestinians" remain silent when terrorism is directed against Jews.

 

[Landon Caeli]

It’s truly inspiring to see boomer Israel-worshipers passionately backing an anti-Christian regime over actual Christians. Priorities, right? Apparently, there’s a divine exemption clause that lets Israel dehumanize anyone in their path, no limits, no questions asked. Must be nice to have a blank moral check endorsed by blind allegiance. US Congress is occupied territory of Israel. Before the 2003 Iraq War for Israel, the Christian population in Iraq was over a million, today around 150,000. All these desert wars for Israel sake brings nothing but destruction to Christians. Brought to you by USA taxpayer money.

Im not a "boomer".

 

[wing2000]

I find it strange that those who condemn terrorism against "Palestinians" remain silent when terrorism is directed against Jews.

I find it strange that you make such assumptions.

 

[rjs330]

I find it strange that you make such assumptions.

I wonder how many posts you've posted condemning the actions of Hamas and their Palestinian supporters in comparison to the number youve posted condemning the actions of Israel.

 

[wing2000]

I wonder how many posts you've posted condemning the actions of Hamas and their Palestinian supporters in comparison to the number youve posted condemning the actions of Israel.

I wonder why you think it's not plausable that I condem both actions?

 

[rjs330]

I wonder why you think it's not plausable that I condem both actions?

Well you certainly do not do it equally. I suppose i could go back to the threads where the Palestinians attacked Israel and see if you were as critical of them as you are with Israel. My guess is you weren't. And you most certainly are not in this thread.

 

[Philip_B]

Well you certainly do not do it equally. I suppose i could go back to the threads where the Palestinians attacked Israel and see if you were as critical of them as you are with Israel. My guess is you weren't. And you most certainly are not in this thread.

And neither have you

 

[Landon Caeli]

And neither have you

I'm rubber and you're glue.

 

[wing2000]

Well you certainly do not do it equally. I suppose i could go back to the threads where the Palestinians attacked Israel and see if you were as critical of them as you are with Israel. My guess is you weren't. And you most certainly are not in this thread.

I suppose you could waste all of our time doing that.

I supported Israel's right to defend itself and respond. It's how they have responded that I find obejctionable. From the 5000lb bombs dropped on apartement buidlings and hospitals to the current event of attacking an hosptal - not once, but twice -with the 2nd attack occuring 9 minutes after the intial attack. By then first responders and journalist were at the sight....and killled.

That is unacceptable targeting.

Video: Videos Contradict Israel’s Rationale for Deadly Hospital Attack

The strikes on Nasser Hospital in Gaza killed at least 20 people. A Times visual analysis calls into question what the Israeli military was initially targeting there, and why its troops attacked a second time, killing first responders and journalists.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Benaiah468]

Poor Israel! What you have to endure! You are expected to care for civilians, ensure the safety of journalists, and accept a two-state solution.

Why are hospitals repeatedly targeted by the IDF? Not to kill journalists, whatever their presence there may be, but to destroy terrorist infrastructure and avert danger to the IDF.

Journalists now know that they are moving in a death zone created by terrorists, and yet they do it anyway. How can anyone believe that wearing a press vest will keep them safe as they walk through Gaza? Can we help? No!

A simple camera, covered with a towel, placed on the fourth floor of the Nassr Hospital in Khan Younis. Next to it, a man who was apparently recording every movement of Israeli soldiers on behalf of Hamas. For days, the hospital became a military observation post and thus a target itself.

Of course, it could also have been a targeting device for firing at tanks. A camera on the enemy's side means at least spying on the military situation, if not worse.

The camera was used to track IDF troop movements in real time. Such surveillance is no small matter; in urban warfare in the Gaza Strip, information means ambushes, tunnel attacks and kidnappings. It was a man from Netivot who first documented evidence of the Hamas camera. He had shared the activities online; evidence that later led to targeted observation by the army. For days, they tracked how the camera moved and how the footage was used to prepare attacks. Anyone who installs a camera in a hospital turns a place of healing into an eye of war.

Only if the tank gunner knew or believed that his target consisted of innocent people did he act unlawfully; otherwise, his actions were lawful. And how could he have known? He couldn't.

The mixing of civilian and military targets makes every strike a moral dilemma.

We now know that six Hamas terrorists were among those killed, one of whom was involved in the infiltration of Israeli territory on 7 Oct. What a surprise! Terrorists in hospital, as usual in Gaza.

In the end, one image remains: a camera covered by a blanket in a hospital. A symbol of the grey area of this war, where truth and deception are so closely intertwined that any attempt to distinguish between them can be fatal. Journalists are dying because terrorist groups systematically exploit civilian infrastructure.

 

[Benaiah468]

Investigation explodes myth that Israel targets journalists