Israel-Hamas Thread II

[truthpls]

Right. Those facts are 14 years old though, they haven't ever been debunked, disproven, and journalists who are subject to punitive damages like those reporting....haven't been even charged with slander or libel. If Hamas leadership could prove these are lies...I think it would be at the top of their list of things to do, as it would greatly improve their reputation and expose deliberate Israeli propaganda.

They haven't done this...so no good reason exists to disbelieve it.

I thought we were discussing recent news, you lost me

Because as I've already shown...you're just wrong. We have known for a long long time that Hamas engages in these tactics. There's no reason to imagine they stopped.

Who cares what Hamas does when the issue is mass murder of children in Gaza? You know who is doing it

You can't even provide a reason why anyone should believe that they stopped using their own citizens as shields like cowards.

Whatever they do does not change what the folks bombing civilians do

Right...but given that this is an old and long established tactic of Hamas that has been repeatedly proven time and again....why would you believe Hamas when they claim to not be doing this?

The article I read said that the dooctors knew nothing about Hamas being there, they just feared for their lives because of Israeli snipers.

All Hamas would have to do is allow reporters inside their tunnels, or hospitals, and show them conclusively that no terrorists are there. Show them the tunnels don't run under hospitals.

Maybe give Hamas a tour of the Diamona site in Israel as well? Face it such things are not realistic

What sort of evidence would you agree is valid?

Something that does not originate with the guys bombing the civilians would be a a start

If you want to say nothing is certain...why are you denying that there are tunnels or operational quarters in and under hospitals?

Says who? Tunnels yes. But that is no excuse to kill medical staff etc. You either arrest the actual criminals or go home.

 

[truthpls]

That is unverified. Please do not base your speculations on information provided by terrorists.

? No idea what you are talking about. Apparently you dispute the number of people killed and want to play like they were actually terrorists killed?

 

[JosephZ]

As I said before, that juice ain't worth the squeeze.

If they already had "a few hundred or even thousands" of militants ready to die, it would be silly to sacrifice the militants they already have in an effort to create an unknown number of other militants.

Leading up to the October 7th terror attack, Hamas was losing support in Gaza, and Israel was in the process of forming an alliance with Saudi Arabia. Both of which would mean the eventual demise of Hamas. They had to do something that would result in a resurgance of Palestinian support and disrupt Israel's relationships with its allies and potential future allies, such as Saudi Arabia. They had to pull off an attack so horrendous that it would cause Israel to overreact and respond in a way that would result in the Palestinian people rallying around them and, at the same time, cause Israel's allies to question Israel's excessive use of force and their support for Israel.

The October 7th terror attack succeeded in doing that.

Hamas wasn't looking for a quick victory and didn't expect one when they launched their attack on October 7th. They are looking decades into the future. The result of this current war will be a loss in international support for Israel going forward, a new generation of Palestinians that will support the cause of Hamas, increased support and funding from other Arab states, and new and renewed aliances with other terrorist groups in the region.

Hamas is depending on Israel defeating itself. All Hamas has to do for that to happen is be willing to take heavy losses now, which they are, be patient, and in the end, Hamas, or a remnant of Hamas, will emerge from all of this stronger than ever before.

 

[Valletta]

? No idea what you are talking about. Apparently you dispute the number of people killed and want to play like they were actually terrorists killed?

I am not "playing," I would just like some clarification and what verification there is on numbers. Does that seem unreasonable to you?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I thought we were discussing recent news, you lost me

I provided an article linked from 2010. It involves...Hamas under a Gaza hospital.

Who cares what Hamas does when the issue is mass murder of children in Gaza? You know who is doing it

Well Israel cares what Hamas does, clearly.

My heart goes out to those children...it really does. I bet they could have grown up to be the next Einstein, or neurosurgeon, or you know, Hamas fighter. What is the #1 occupation for Palestinians?

Whatever they do does not change what the folks bombing civilians do

Not claiming it does. I've been a total war theorist for quite a while now so....this ugly business is the nature of war. Civilians die.

The article I read said that the dooctors knew nothing about Hamas being there, they just feared for their lives because of Israeli snipers.

I bet it did. I believe you believe them. There's lots of propaganda on both sides.

Maybe give Hamas a tour of the Diamona site in Israel as well? Face it such things are not realistic

I've seen Hamas give tours of the tunnels. They aren't exactly a secret.

Something that does not originate with the guys bombing the civilians would be a a start

I'm all ears. What would you suggest? Nerve gas?

Says who? Tunnels yes. But that is no excuse to kill medical staff etc. You either arrest the actual criminals or go home.

Well the medical staff were warned to leave. They made their choice. Most don't even get a choice in war.

 

[Bradskii]

I am not "playing," I would just like some clarification and what verification there is on numbers. Does that seem unreasonable to you?

You've been given that.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Leading up to the October 7th terror attack, Hamas was losing support in Gaza, and Israel was in the process of forming an alliance with Saudi Arabia.

Uh huh.

Both of which would mean the eventual demise of Hamas.

Good.

They had to do something that would result in a resurgance of Palestinian support

Resurgence? Maybe you missed it but Palestinian support is at an all time high....and was so well before October 7th.

and disrupt Israel's relationships with its allies and potential future allies, such as Saudi Arabia.

How so?

They had to pull off an attack so horrendous that it would cause Israel to overreact and respond in a way that would result in the Palestinian people rallying around them and, at the same time, cause Israel's allies to question Israel's excessive use of force and their support for Israel.

You're not thinking like a nation.

What is the upside to supporting Palestinians?

What do they trade in? What do they create? What so they give to their allies?

Because if you aren't aware...Israel donates a lot of funds to Palestine.

The October 7th terror attack succeeded in doing that.

Well the idea that this hasn't been normalized in certain political viewpoints and is "something new" is in no way true. Every dumb talking point about apartheid and colonialism has been repeated endlessly for at least 8 years now.

This support didn't magically appear overnight.

Hamas wasn't looking for a quick victory and didn't expect one when they launched their attack on October 7th.

That's good. I saw a long line of them surrendering in their underwear. A quick victory looks impossible.

They are looking decades into the future.

Or they just hate jews. As much as I would like to imagine these Hamas people as having some brilliant strategy here...I don't see it.

The result of this current war will be a loss in international support for Israel going forward,

Really? Why? They were attacked. They were set upon by a vicious group of invaders.

Why would anyone who currently supports Israel stop?

a new generation of Palestinians that will support the cause of Hamas,

Well they may call themselves Palestinians but since there's really no ethnic Palestinians and they will probably be born outside Gaza....perhaps they're going to do what most Palestinians do and move on with their lives.

increased support and funding from other Arab states,

Support and funding what? A terrorist group claiming rights to Palestine all the way from Qatar?

and new and renewed aliances with other terrorist groups in the region.

Makes one consider the importance of national security.

Hamas is depending on Israel defeating itself.

Oh...I see. That's tricky stuff.

All Hamas has to do for that to happen is be willing to take heavy losses now, which they are, be patient, and in the end, Hamas, or a remnant of Hamas, will emerge from all of this stronger than ever before.

Well they took heavy losses. They may have lost much or all of Gaza. If Israel is smart....they won't give back an inch. After all, they've seen how that plays out in the long run.

 

[rjs330]

Verified by Israeli officials. As

Oh? Who?

In which case, why dispute the numbers?

I think think I already answered the that question. Where you fishing for a different one from him?

There is zero chance that they will lose. Israel knows that. Hamas knows that. Everyone knows that. You accuse me of not 'understanding the mindset' and then make a monstrously ridiculous statement like that. Hamas wasn't trying to defeat Israel. That is the most inane suggestion possible. All they wanted was a ridiculous over reaction from them. And they got it in spades.

And all you can suggest is hey, maybe we should just wait until it's all over to see what happens. You know, before we actually think about the repercussions.

I don't know about that. If Israel stops the fight like you want them to then Hamas does win. So I guess it's not such a ridiculous statement after all.

Did Hamas want such a large reaction from Israel? How do you know that? Have they said something?

No it's pretty obvious here you don't know who Israel is dealing with or their mindset.

We have no idea if Israel wins or loses until this is over. You certainly can have an opinion. As can I. So don't act so incredulous.

 

[JosephZ]

Leading up to the October 7th terror attack, Hamas was losing support in Gaza, and Israel was in the process of forming an alliance with Saudi Arabia.

Uh huh.

In a poll taken six months ago, 69% of Palestinians said Hamas doesn't deserve to represent the Palestinian people.

A diplomatic deal normalising relations between Israel and Saudi Arabia – a breakthrough that would have been inconceivable several years ago – is suddenly a plausible prospect.

The prize is big. Mutual recognition between Israel and Saudi Arabia, two of the region’s most significant powers, would transform the strategic landscape of the volatile Middle East. It would set the region up for an era of peace unknown since Ottoman times, and lay the groundwork for economic progress.

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas is walking a fine line. More radical Palestinian actors will accuse him of abandoning the Palestinian national cause. He will be hoping that incremental progress towards Palestinian statehood, and improved conditions in the West Bank, will offset this. And he will be counting on the Saudis to purchase acquiescence from Hamas, which runs Gaza and presents the biggest threat to Abbas’ rule.

For Israel, a formal end to the Arab–Israeli conflict would cement its place in the region and serve as a security asset, just as the peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan have done. For Netanyahu, it would fulfil his historic sense of mission to safeguard Israel for the future.

Israel and Saudi Arabia: Finally, a New Middle East? | Lowy Institute

A deal with the Middle East’s two most significant powers could transform the volatile region, but the stakes are high.

www.lowyinstitute.org

 

[RDKirk]

Leading up to the October 7th terror attack, Hamas was losing support in Gaza, and Israel was in the process of forming an alliance with Saudi Arabia. Both of which would mean the eventual demise of Hamas. They had to do something that would result in a resurgance of Palestinian support and disrupt Israel's relationships with its allies and potential future allies, such as Saudi Arabia.

I've already talked about that a couple of times. Hamas is not the winner there, Iran is.

If Israel continues on its current course, it's likely to be successful at eliminating Hamas as a significant threat. There will be more in the future, but at this point Israel appears to have concluded those are serpent heads it will cut off as they appear.

People seem to want this to continue to be a tit-for-tat tolerable war.

 

[Ana the Ist]

In a poll taken six months ago, 69% of Palestinians said Hamas doesn't deserve to represent the Palestinian people.

How many supported a 2 state solution?

A diplomatic deal normalising relations between Israel and Saudi Arabia – a breakthrough that would have been inconceivable several years ago – is suddenly a plausible prospect.

Plausible because of profitability.

The prize is big. Mutual recognition between Israel and Saudi Arabia, two of the region’s most significant powers, would transform the strategic landscape of the volatile Middle East. It would set the region up for an era of peace unknown since Ottoman times, and lay the groundwork for economic progress.

Thank you WW1 allies for setting up all those nations. You did your best and you certainly didn't have to.

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas is walking a fine line.

That's putting it mildly.

More radical Palestinian actors will accuse him of abandoning the Palestinian national cause. He will be hoping that incremental progress towards Palestinian statehood, and improved conditions in the West Bank, will offset this.

I think the Israeli plan in the West Bank has been slow creeping territory gains.

And he will be counting on the Saudis to purchase acquiescence from Hamas, which runs Gaza and presents the biggest threat to Abbas’ rule.

Well they ain't running Gaza no more.

For Israel, a formal end to the Arab–Israeli conflict would cement its place in the region and serve as a security asset, just as the peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan have done. For Netanyahu, it would fulfil his historic sense of mission to safeguard Israel for the future.

Let's not forget peace treaties so recently signed in other mideast states as well.

Israel and Saudi Arabia: Finally, a New Middle East? | Lowy Institute

A deal with the Middle East’s two most significant powers could transform the volatile region, but the stakes are high.

www.lowyinstitute.org

When I said "support" I meant by young affluent but not so bright college students in the west and Arabic/Muslim immigrants.

Not anyone with actual power.

 

[rjs330]

The price they are paying now is small change compared to the jackpot they are hoping for.

What's this great jackpot they are hoping for? Is it more terrorists? If so do think there is some sort of shortfall in terrorists?

Is it the physical destruction of Israel? If so, by whom?

Is the political destruction of Israel? That's seems a pretty stupid course of action for the hope that Israel will be destroyed politically.

 

[rjs330]

You've been given that.

Anonymous unverified sources aren't really good sources.

 

[Ana the Ist]

People seem to want this to continue to be a tit-for-tat tolerable war.

And how gross is that? Who does that even help?

The Palestinians? The Israelis?

They've been at this a long time now. If Israel doesn't allow any Palestinians back into Gaza, they can finally begin to heal on both sides.

 

[Bradskii]

Oh? Who?

I literally told you. I quoted the article:

'..a briefing for foreign media by senior Israeli military officials'.

So an official briefing given by senior officials to the media. Oh, but maybe you want their rank, ID photo, inside leg measurement, name of their first pet...?

You really are desperate to avoid reality.

 

[truthpls]

I am not "playing," I would just like some clarification and what verification there is on numbers. Does that seem unreasonable to you?

Why would we seriously question the number the authorities there give?

 

[Pommer]

This post reminds me of when President Bush gave his "mission accomplished" speech in 2003.

Hamas knew before they launched their terrorist attack against Israel on October 7th that they were going to lose a significant number of militants. The surrender of a few hundred or even thousands, along with the deaths of thousands more, was expected. Hamas and other Jihadist terrorist groups have generational goals and know in advance that they are going to take serious losses on the battle field against advanced militaries.

Even if every Hamas terrorist surrendered today, Israel is at a much higher risk of terrorist attacks, and terrorism against Jewish targets around the world is also higher than it was prior to October 7th, and this threat will only increase in the years to come.

After all of the fighting is over is when the rest of the world will ask Israel “why did these people do these horrendous and futile things that got ten times as many of themselves killed as they selfishly killed? What could make these people do this?”

But if the “war” is still going on, then these questions will be “for later”.

 

[truthpls]

I provided an article linked from 2010. It involves...Hamas under a Gaza hospital.

If they were supposedly under some hospital 13 years ago, does that mean they are now? Source of your article?

Well Israel cares what Hamas does, clearly.

Do they show that care by killing thousands of civilians and depriving a population and making them relocate etc?

My heart goes out to those children...it really does. I bet they could have grown up to be the next Einstein, or neurosurgeon, or you know, Hamas fighter. What is the #1 occupation for Palestinians?

Resisting oppressors?

Not claiming it does. I've been a total war theorist for quite a while now so....this ugly business is the nature of war. Civilians die.

Sounds like Hitler talking about Jews

I bet it did. I believe you believe them. There's lots of propaganda on both sides.

So don't offer your selected propaganda as fact

I've seen Hamas give tours of the tunnels. They aren't exactly a secret.

You have a map?

I'm all ears. What would you suggest? Nerve gas?

Retreat and departure from the land or share it?

Well the medical staff were warned to leave. They made their choice. Most don't even get a choice in war.

Go outside and play in the freeway where bombs are falling and let all the babies and patients die? That is terrorism

 

[Ana the Ist]

If they were supposedly under some hospital 13 years ago, does that mean they are now?

No, clearly Hamas went and moved the tunnels.

Source of your article?

Try reading.

Do they show that care by killing thousands of civilians and depriving a population and making them relocate etc?

Nope.. I think the time for caring ended October 6th.

Resisting oppressors?

There are Arab Muslims sitting in Israeli parliament right now voting on how to best finish off Hamas.

How many jews sit in the Hamas leadership?

Sounds like Hitler talking about Jews

So do those dumb kids chanting from the river to the sea. They should take note...perhaps had they supported Israel, they wouldn't have been so quick to finish their enemies.

So don't offer your selected propaganda as fact

Believe whatever you like. I suggest you go over there and feed some refugees. Tell them you're a wealthy Canadian. They don't take hostages or rape or behead anyone. I've got good word from Hamas leadership themselves.

You have a map?

It's not that big an area. The tunnels are vast. I've seen them.

Retreat and departure from the land or share it?

They made multiple attempts to share...Palestinians chose war and endless terrorism even after they lost.

Not a great people. They won't be missed.

Go outside and play in the freeway where bombs are falling and let all the babies and patients die? That is terrorism

No that's just war. I know it's not the sanitized version you watch in movies...but that's how it goes, that's what it looks like...at least when it's done correctly. You would think people would understand that the reason the west hasn't won many wars recently is because they think it's about handing out band-aids to the people you just bombed. Nope. Double down on the bombs and horror until your enemy knows the only way out of a violent death is total surrender.

Lesson learned.

 

[Valletta]

Verified by Israeli officials. As you well know. They stated that the proportion of Hamas killed versus innocent men, women and children gave a figure of 10,000+ innocent people dead.

I could find nothing about "innocents" numbers from Israel, and Conricus clarified almost a week ago that although he saw the report he did not confirm the numbers.