Israel-Hamas Thread II

[civilwarbuff]

An overreaction by Israel which has lost them friends and gained them enemies.

I don't think that is true; I just believe they both have become more vocal and therefore it seems as though the numbers have changed.

And good grief, you can't destroy a terrorist group.

O course you can; you just can't destroy ideology. Nazi ideology is still alive today but its adherents are virtually impotent to do anything.

And good grief, there are a lot of fathers who have lost children or young men who have seen their family blown to pieces who will now willingly volunteer for that.

How do you know that?

 

[civilwarbuff]

I have not failed. Your position is self-evidently ridiculous. No reasonable person would argue that an agent B is relieved of all responsibility for their actions simply because they have been provoked by an agent A.

That is a nonsensical view and obviously so.

Your opinion is duly noted and ignored.

 

[civilwarbuff]

How is it not blazingly obvious, to steal a term from Bradskii, that this is absurd reasoning.

So what....? You believe Israel was going to attack Gaza regardless of whether hamas attacked them or not? Really? Any rationale for that belief?
You actually might want to re-read the post that you are replying to first.

 

[Bradskii]

How do you know that?

Because I am not naive. Because I can empathise. Because I can see the anguish and anger of people who have lost loved ones in these circumstances. Because I listen to people who are experts in this matter.

Now why do you think that people who have seen their children blown up would not want vengence? In what mystical, rainbow hued, happy ever after fantasy land do you think that people who have already been treated badly by Israel would not want to respond in kind after digging their kids out of the rubble of their home?

Any ideas?

 

[Nithavela]

Because I am not naive. Because I can empathise. Because I can see the anguish and anger of people who have lost loved ones in these circumstances. Because I listen to people who are experts in this matter.

Now why do you think that people who have seen their children blown up would not want vengence? In what mystical, rainbow hued, happy ever after fantasy land do you think that people who have already been treated badly by Israel would not want to respond in kind after digging their kids out of the rubble of their home?

Any ideas?

Personally I would rather get mad at the people who used my child as a living shield and provoked the bombing. But then, I've not been bombarded by propaganda for decades and nobody will throw me from a tall building for voicing a dissenting opinion.

Looking at pictures from Gaza, tall buildings are in short supply in the Gaza strip these days, so maybe that will help.

 

[Pommer]

That is how war is concluded: When it becomes intolerable.

You are advocating for the war to remain nice and tidy, tit for tat, so that it is tolerable and continual.

You have missed my point, which is that Israel will not be in a hurry to conclude the war, since these sorts of questions will then be on the table.
Questions like
”Why would Hamas launch an attack that they knew would result in many more Gazans dying than they could possibly inflict on Israel?“ and the follow-up
“Is the leadership of Hamas just ‘crazy jihadists’; or is there some justification for their rocket attacks, to get the rest of the world involved in their situation and plight?”

These are questions that Israel won’t wish to answer until after the war, which they have now no reason to end anytime soon.

 

[RDKirk]

O course you can; you just can't destroy ideology. Nazi ideology is still alive today but its adherents are virtually impotent to do anything.

A couple of examples: Red Brigades and Weather Underground.

 

[RDKirk]

You have missed my point, which is that Israel will not be in a hurry to conclude the war, since these sorts of questions will then be on the table.
Questions like
”Why would Hamas launch an attack that they knew would result in many more Gazans dying than they could possibly inflict on Israel?“ and the follow-up
“Is the leadership of Hamas just ‘crazy jihadists’; or is there some justification for their rocket attacks, to get the rest of the world involved in their situation and plight?”

These are questions that Israel won’t wish to answer until after the war, which they have now no reason to end anytime soon.

That's silly.

It's a clear fact that doesn't require any proof from Israel that the Oct 7 attack occurred. Israel will never have to answer "why" Hamas launched the attack...that's up to Hamas to answer.

 

[Pommer]

That's silly.

It's a clear fact that doesn't require any proof from Israel that the Oct 7 attack occurred. Israel will never have to answer "why" Hamas launched the attack...that's up to Hamas to answer.

Hamas is going to be “gone”.
Any Hamas leaders left alive will not be “available“ for public comment.

So that’ll just leave Israel to answer questions; and they won’t while the war is still on-going.

 

[RDKirk]

Hamas is going to be “gone”.
Any Hamas leaders left alive will not be “available“ for public comment.

So that’ll just leave Israel to answer questions; and they won’t while the war is still on-going.

The Hamas "why" is not a question Israel will ever have to answer.

 

[Bradskii]

Personally I would rather get mad at the people who used my child as a living shield...

You would rather get mad? Like it's a conscious choice? Sit down for ten minutes after digging the family out and think it through kinda decision? Look at it cooly and calmly and decide 'Hey, these Hamas morons started it, they're hiding out everywhere so the Israelis were quite entitled to bomb our apartment block and kill my family'.

Here's an example from WWII. Downed allied aircrew beaten to death by your ordinary, run-of-the-mill citizens of a town that was destroyed by allied bombing. Rüsselsheim massacre - Wikipedia. But of course, the good burgers of Russelsheim should have sat down and rationally thought about who had started it. 'Hey, didn't we invade Poland? Verdammt, it was our fault!' Then they obviously would have got some sausages and sauerkraut and a few beers for the airmen and made sure they got home safely.

I guess I have to keep saying this. But the disconnect with reality in this thread is beyond comprehension.

 

[Bradskii]

The Hamas "why" is not a question Israel will ever have to answer.

Not have to? It should have been the very first question.

 

[Pommer]

The Hamas "why" is not a question Israel will ever have to answer.

Perhaps, though, they’ll have to answer the
”What happened (or will happen) to the Gazans who weren’t supporters of Hamas?” question.

 

[RDKirk]

Not have to? It should have been the very first question.

That's still silly. Was Britain on someone's hook to answer "Why were the Germans striking your shipping?" Was the US ever on the hook to answer "Why did the Japanese invade the Philippines?"

 

[rjs330]

don't think that is true; I just believe they both have become more vocal and therefore it seems as though the numbers have changed.

I think they were always there. They just hid it better because there wasn't any reason for them to come forward. Now they can come forward out in the open where everyone can see, because it's more acceptable now.

 

[Bradskii]

That's still silly. Was Britain on someone's hook to answer "Why were the Germans striking your shipping?" Was the US ever on the hook to answer "Why did the Japanese invade the Philippines?"

The very first thing you need to ask is 'what is your enemy's objective.' What is the strategy? It's a concept that is completely alien to most in this thread.

 

[RDKirk]

The very first thing you need to ask is 'what is your enemy's objective.' What is the strategy? It's a concept that is completely alien to most in this thread.

Okay, you weren't paying attention to the tangent.

Hamas is going to be “gone”.
Any Hamas leaders left alive will not be “available“ for public comment.

So that’ll just leave Israel to answer questions; and they won’t while the war is still on-going.

Pommer was talking about Israel being on the hook to answer questions about the intentions of Hamas after the war. For sure, Israeli intelligence has their theories about Hamas objectives, but that's not something they have to provide to the world.

 

[rjs330]

You would rather get mad? Like it's a conscious choice? Sit down for ten minutes after digging the family out and think it through kinda decision? Look at it cooly and calmly and decide 'Hey, these Hamas morons started it, they're hiding out everywhere so the Israelis were quite entitled to bomb our apartment block and kill my family'.

Here's an example from WWII. Downed allied aircrew beaten to death by your ordinary, run-of-the-mill citizens of a town that was destroyed by allied bombing. Rüsselsheim massacre - Wikipedia. But of course, the good burgers of Russelsheim should have sat down and rationally thought about who had started it. 'Hey, didn't we invade Poland? Verdammt, it was our fault!' Then they obviously would have got some sausages and sauerkraut and a few beers for the airmen and made sure they got home safely.

I guess I have to keep saying this. But the disconnect with reality in this thread is beyond comprehension.

Heartwarming story. Except it's not the same thing. I would guess the German would have felt a little differently if the German soldiers were using his house to fight the US from. Or drug his family into the bunker with them.

 

[Bradskii]

Pommer was talking about Israel being on the hook to answer questions about the intentions of Hamas after the war. For sure, Israeli intelligence has their theories about Hamas objectives, but that's not something they have to provide to the world.

That's reasonable, yes.

 

[Bradskii]

Heartwarming story. Except it's not the same thing. I would guess the German would have felt a little differently if the German soldiers were using his house to fight the US from. Or drug his family into the bunker with them.

The principle of the matter being discussed is the same. Kill someone's family and they don't sit around and muse on who was ultimately at fault. Revenge is the immediate reaction. To the point in the example given of everday citizens beating people to death that weren't even actively involved.

Consider a man who is not an active Hamas supporter. His life has been made a lot harder by Israel's policies. He's doing it tough. Maybe he knows what Hamas did to provoke Israel. But he's not part of the problem. But then his entire apartment block is blown to bits. By Israel. His family is dead. Buried in the rubble. What do you honestly think will be his reaction? If the pilot who dropped the bomb was shot down then tell me that we wouldn't have exactly the same situation as happened in Russelsheim. They'd be parading his dead body through the streets.