Israel-Hamas Thread II

[civilwarbuff]

It just means he(?) answered his own. Therefore "never mind".

Yes, he is a he......

 

[civilwarbuff]

Israel cannot continue to deny food, water and health services to the people of Gaza. It's reaching a point where thousands could die of disease from unsanitary conditions and starvation.

A U.N. human rights official said Israel must allow water and fuel into Gaza to restart the water supply network otherwise people would die of thirst and disease. Israel's actions were a breach of international law, Pedro Arrojo-Agudo said.

UN says starvation imminent in Gaza, no let-up in Israeli assault

U.N. aid deliveries to Gaza were suspended again on Friday due to shortages of fuel and a communications shutdown, deepening the misery of thousands of hungry and homeless Palestinians as Israeli troops battled Hamas militants in the enclave.

www.reuters.com

I guess hamas could surrender and prevent such a happening but I believe we all know the reaction to that idea.

 

[civilwarbuff]

The death toll is given by the Ministry of Health. I have previouly posted links showing that a number of organisations think they are, within reason (fog of war etc) to be trusted. Here's another: How the dead are counted in Gaza

In case you weren't aware: https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/06/middleeast/gaza-10k-deaths-intl/index.html

More than 10,000 killed in Gaza, Hamas-controlled health ministry says, as condemnation of Israel’s campaign grows​

 

[civilwarbuff]

It's not just the number but the lack of remorse for the crime that stands out here. It seems to be a relentless justification of murderous terrorism and civilian murders that we see coming from Israel. The bible might call that having their heart set in them fully to do evil

There were times God commanded the Hebrews to kill every last man, woman and child of their opponents. Are you insinuating that God commanded the Jews to do evil?

 

[Bradskii]

In case you weren't aware: https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/06/middleeast/gaza-10k-deaths-intl/index.html

More than 10,000 killed in Gaza, Hamas-controlled health ministry says, as condemnation of Israel’s campaign grows​

I've posted enough links and quotes that indicate the figures are generally accepted as being reasonably correct. You can ignore all those links should you wish. I'm not going to waste my time repeating them.

 

[civilwarbuff]

The problem is Israeli political leaders have stated that their objective is ethnic cleansing (or worse) not self defence

‘Erase Gaza’: War Unleashes Incendiary Rhetoric in Israel​

‘Erase Gaza’: War Unleashes Incendiary Rhetoric in Israel

Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”


Israel is clear about its intentions in Gaza – world leaders cannot plead ignorance of what is coming | Owen Jones

Ethnic cleansing in Gaza: Israel’s agriculture minister declares, “We’re Rolling Out Nakba 2023”​

Ethnic cleansing in Gaza: Israel’s agriculture minister declares, “We’re Rolling Out Nakba 2023”

See #627

 

[civilwarbuff]

I've posted enough links and quotes that indicate the figures are generally accepted as being reasonably correct. You can ignore all those links should you wish. I'm not going to waste my time repeating them.

I've seen them. They also took hamas health minstry at its word.

 

[Bradskii]

I've seen them. They also took hamas health minstry at its word.

And gave their reasons. Which were that on numerous previous ocassions their figures proved to be accurate.

 

[rjs330]

In an earlier post in this thread, I asked you what you would do if you found yourself in a similar situation as someone in Gaza, and you said, "I don't know there is a lot I could do." How is it that you can continue to blame Gazans for their current situation when you yourself said you wouldn't be able to do much about it if you found yourself in the same situation?

You forget, there's not much I could do alone. But with a thousands of my friends? I could do a lot.

You forget also that the majority of Gazans DO support Hamas and their destruction of Israel.

Everyday Palestinians aren't the ones making bombs and rockets out of water pipes; Hamas, a terrorist group, has done this. The Palestinians are suffering because of the actions of Hamas and the disproportionate use of force that Israel uses to fight against them.

And this is a perfect opportunity for the Palestinians to fight with Israel to get rid of Hamas.

 

[rjs330]

Everyday Palestinians aren't the ones making bombs and rockets out of water pipes; Hamas, a terrorist group, has done this. The Palestinians are suffering because of the actions of Hamas and the disproportionate use of force that Israel uses to fight against them.

Palastinians support Hamas attacking Israel. As long as they do, they get what they deserve. There are consequences to your actions.

 

[truthpls]

There were times God commanded the Hebrews to kill every last man, woman and child of their opponents. Are you insinuating that God commanded the Jews to do evil?

He commanded a people who believed in Him not rejected Him. No comparison whatsoever.

 

[Vanellus]

There were times God commanded the Hebrews to kill every last man, woman and child of their opponents. Are you insinuating that God commanded the Jews to do evil?

A different time. Do you think then that, if Netanyahu said that God had commanded him to wipe out all Gazans, that you would believe him i.e. that God had actually spoken thus to Netanyahu.

 

[JosephZ]

Some potentially good news.

U.S. close to deal with Israel and Hamas to pause conflict, free some hostages

A five-day pause in fighting, monitored by aerial surveillance, could see dozens of women and children freed from captivity in Gaza, according to people familiar with the terms of an emerging agreement

Israel and Hamas are close to agreement on a U.S.-brokered deal that would free dozens of women and children held hostage in Gaza in exchange for a five-day pause in fighting, say people familiar with the emerging terms.

The release, which could begin within the next several days — barring last-minute hitches — could lead to the first sustained pause in conflict in Gaza.

A detailed, six-page set of written terms would require all parties to the conflict to freeze combat operations for at least five days while an initial 50 or more hostages are released in smaller batches every 24 hours. It was not immediately clear how many of the 239 people believed to be in captivity in Gaza would be released under the deal. Overhead surveillance would monitor movement on the ground to police the pause.

U.S. officials have said they believe a pause would allow Hamas to gather the hostages and arrangements could be made to escort them safely through the battlefield. It was not clear that the Americans or other foreigners would be included in the initial tranche of releases. The hope is that if the release of women and children is successful, other groups of captives will then follow.



But nothing is certain as of yet.

No deal yet: PM shoots down ‘incorrect reports’ of imminent hostage agreement

Netanyahu says no accord ‘as of now’ amid reports of progress on deal that would free dozens of women, children in exchange for a 5-day pause; Gantz says hostages are top priority

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said there was no deal yet to secure the release of some 240 hostages held by Hamas “as of now,” and dismissed “a lot of incorrect reports” in recent days about imminent agreements to free at least some of the hostages.

In a lengthy evening press conference, Netanyahu said that if a deal emerges, the Israeli public will be updated.



U.S. denies report of Israel-Hamas deal to allow hostage release — but says talks continue

U.S. officials denied Saturday a report of that a deal was reached between Hamas and Israel for the release of an unknown number of hostages held in Gaza — but said efforts to reach such an agreement are ongoing.

“We have not reached a deal yet, but we continue to work hard to get to a deal,” National Security Council spokeswoman Adrienne Watson said on X.

Watson was responding to a report Saturday evening in the Washington Post saying Israel, the United States and Hamas had agreed to a pause in the Gaza war in return for Hamas’ release of women and children it is holding hostage.

The agreement would include a five-day pause in fighting — which would be the first sustained period of calm since the war began on Oct. 7, the Washington Post reported.

 

[civilwarbuff]

And gave their reasons. Which were that on numerous previous ocassions their figures proved to be accurate.

Of course they all went there and counted the bodies, right? I mean, who would be stupid enough to trust HAMAS' health ministry's word for something?......you know, that terrorist group who lies, rapes, murders men, women, children and infants. I mean, what purpose could they possibly be lying for? So yeah, I guess their word is good enough for supporters, sympathizers and propagandists......but not for the rest of us.

 

[civilwarbuff]

He commanded a people who believed in Him not rejected Him. No comparison whatsoever.

They had not rejected Him when he commanded them to do so. That's the reason they followed his command. So, once more since you didn't bother to answer the question the first time: Did God command the Hebrews to do evil by killing everyone and everything (men, women, children, animals)? Try addressing the question this time.

 

[civilwarbuff]

A different time.

Pitiful argument and does not change the facts. I question I asked still stands.

Do you think then that, if Netanyahu said that God had commanded him to wipe out all Gazans, that you would believe him i.e. that God had actually spoken thus to Netanyahu.

BTW, I don't believe God has anointed Netanyahu a prophet to Israel.....not yet at least.......

 

[Aussie Pete]

Do you think the cost is acceptable?

It should never have come to this. However, Hamas is entirely responsible for every casualty on both sides.

 

[o_mlly]

How does one conduct an ethical war against an unethical enemy? Those whose opinion is that the Israelis are not conducting a just war against an unjust aggressor need read no further.

Given that Israel meets the ius ad bellum conditions, the issue reduces to Israel conducting the war according to the standards of ius in bellum. The problem of innocents arises as the main concern.

There are some questions about the exact specification of “innocents” in wartime. Possibly non-combatants, and certainly, those not old enough to be morally responsible, are innocent. However, non-combatants are not all necessarily innocent. Non-combatants actively engaged in supporting an unjust war are not innocent and may be targeted. The general rule may be expressed as in an unjust war all those persons or things that are engaged in harming are legitimate targets. Conversely, the clearest sense of those who are “innocent” in wartime are all those not engaged in creating harm.

The just war soldier's duty to avoid harming innocents becomes complicated when an unethical adversary employs the presumed innocence of persons and places to gain advantage. Hamas uses locations that are prima facia innocent, eg., residential areas, schools, hospitals, churches, mosques, etc., to prosecute their unjust war thereby compromising the innocence of these places. An attack on these now legitimate targets will undoubtedly cause collateral damage -- a euphemism for the unintentional killing of innocent persons. The four principles of the Doctrine of Double Effect (DDE) are employed to morally justify the death of those innocents. But the DDE does not seem to many as morally satisfying. Thus, an additional condition of "due care" toward minimizing the loss of innocent lives must be included.

The Israeli military announces publicly its intent to destroy these compromised targets, declaring that civilians left in the area at the declared time will not be its responsibility. This warning might, admittedly, allow the Hamas terrorists to escape with valuable equipment, but the Israelis still believe it important to destroy military-use targets while showing clear due care respect for innocent civilians. In the context of war, many think that such action satisfies the "due care" principle. So do I.

 

[wing2000]

I guess hamas could surrender and prevent such a happening but I believe we all know the reaction to that idea.

...I guess Israel has all military options open becasue Hamas could surrender.

 

[wing2000]

How do you know this? Do you have any hard numbers to provide us with. More generally, how do you know that another approach to eliminating Hamas is not available to them? Perhaps a slower paced series of highly surgical special operations attacks?

Let's imagine that Hamas terrorists were hiding in Israel. Would Israel be flattening entire neighborhoods to root out Hamas?

Israel blames the high death toll — 12,000, according to the Gaza health ministry, a number that includes both civilians and combatants — in part on Hamas’s decision to hide its military fortifications and command centers in residential neighborhoods and hospitals like Al-Shifa.

But U.S. officials said Israel’s rapid decision to launch ground operations in the enclave left Israeli commanders little time for extensive planning to mitigate risks to civilians and all but guaranteed a high civilian death toll.

.......

Gen. Kenneth F. McKenzie Jr., a retired head of the U.S. military’s Central Command, said the Israeli military had achieved some of its objectives, such as suppressing Hamas rocket fire into Israel and reducing risks to its own troops. More than 55 Israeli soldiers have died in the ground operation, an indication that the Israeli army is moving cautiously on the ground while warplanes and artillery pound targets.

But General McKenzie said it was still unclear how many top Hamas leaders the Israeli military had killed. And so far, Israel’s decision to reduce parts of Gaza to rubble and kill more than 1,000 Hamas fighters has not secured a major deal to release the roughly 240 hostages, many in the vast tunnel network.

It's not clear at all (so far) that the IDF's strategy is achieving what it set out to do. Will the military accomplishments justify the high number of civilian deaths?

Is Israel’s Military Strategy to Eradicate Hamas Working?

Israel is making progress in ground control of Gaza, but it has not vanquished Hamas or freed most of the hostages. And international condemnation of civilian casualties is growing.

www.nytimes.com