israel doesn't commit war crimes.

[Armoured]

And Israel even warns them beforehand when and where the bomb is going to hit. Unfortunately, this warning lets Hamas know where to place their civilian "martyrs" for the bombing.

*headdesk*

 

[isshinwhat]

Not just Catholic dogma either. The concept of appropriate and proportional force is codified quite explicitly in LOAC. Treaties to which Israel is a signatory, IINM.

Just War theory and LOAC/Geneva Conventions provide a lens through which Israel can be viewed as justified in their actions. The airstrikes are limited and strike valid military targets. With respect to the original war crimes question, I am sure it happens on an individual level - I doubt there has ever been a war in which it has not happened- but in terms of legal ramifications and the strategic war and tactical strikes, the UN has already stated that Hamas is turning hospitals and schools into valid military targets... So long as the threat of a high number of Israeli casualties through rocket/mortar/suicide attacks is present, the legal (and arguably moral) respect for proportionality exists despite Hamas's failure to execute their attacks with the same degree of success as Israel.

 

[S.ilvio]

If Israel wanted to demolish the Hamas leadership, Mossad would have done the deed a long time ago.

However it is in Israel's interests to keep Hamas intact. Keeps the people living in fear which in turn keeps the American tax dollars flowing in...

 

[isshinwhat]

If Israel wanted to demolish the Hamas leadership, Mossad would have done the deed a long time ago.

However it is in Israel's interests to keep Hamas intact. Keeps the people living in fear which in turn keeps the American tax dollars flowing in...

That could be part of it. There is also the matter of who backs Hamas. I can't stand politics...

We see, therefore, that war is not merely an act of policy but a true political instrument, a continuation of political intercourse carried on with other means.

Carl von Clausewitz

 

[MikeK]

Hamas is indeed deliberately using civilians as a shield.

Israel is the one choosing to shoot those civilian shields Hamas is hiding behind.

2 wrongs don't make a right. Hamas' disgusting acts do not justify Israel's disgusting acts.

It really is that simple. Violence against civilians is wrong whether it is retaliatory or not. The numbers of women and children that Israel has killed in this recent round of fighting is staggering. Hamas is an organization that is bent on evil and Israel has a right to defend herself from them. Israel does not have a right to kill civilians out-of-proportion to the threats they face, but they have been. Neither side will ever kill enough people to cause lasting peace to break out. Hamas needs a bully and the Israeli government needs a threat. They mutually parasitic and the common man on each side comes out on the loosing end.

 

[Genersis]

According to the UNOCHA that the BBC referenced the other day, at lest 70% of the Palestinian casualties are civilians.
Hearing news sources talking about the use of unguided highly destructive howitzers in civilian populated areas, as well as the UN shelters that have been hit, I can't help but feel lines have been crossed.
Though I cannot say if any of this qualifies as war crimes.

 

[freedom1234]

Let us face reality that there is NO such concept as a just war in theologically defensible terms. Luther for all he had wrong did recognise that it is Princes who wage war and that is a burden they carry, but God has to be left out of it. The pacifist position has been strongly promulgated from the papacy since Vatican II and before. Just War is not a dogmatic belief and we should question all who see violence as a solution.

Comment needs to be even handed and not pro or anti one side or the other. To do otherwise merely gives succour to the extremes of both sides.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

don't prosecute israel for committing war crimes because israel doesn't commit war crimes.

this shouldn't be allowed to happen because it just isn't right.

why are more and more people saying prosecute israel for committing war crimes?

because israel doesn't deserve to be prosecuted for committing war crimes because israel doesn't commit war crimes.

This is true.

Israel is very careful to try to warn civilians of upcoming attacks on military targets. In fact, they do more in this regard than any nation in history.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

It really is that simple. Violence against civilians is wrong whether it is retaliatory or not.

You are ignoring the defensive aspect of Israel's actions. It's their duty to protect their civilian population. Hamas isn't the only one with innocent civilians. But they are the only one between the two that uses their civilians as human shields. Hamas fires rockets indiscriminately into Israel and deliberately chooses to launch from a site with civilians such as from a school, a mosque, or a hotel. Israel announces a warning before bombing the rocket launcher site. But Hamas orders the civilians there to stay so they can become "martyrs" for the cause. When those civilians do get killed as a result, people blame Israel for it, and Hamas repeats it because they know the strategy worked for getting people to turn against Israel. This point has been made lots of times in these threads.

 

[ebia]

You are ignoring the defensive aspect of Israel's actions. It's their duty to protect their civilian population. Hamas isn't the only one with innocent civilians. But they are the only one between the two that uses their civilians as human shields. Hamas fires rockets indiscriminately into Israel and deliberately chooses to launch from a site with civilians such as from a school, a mosque, or a hotel. And Israel bombs the rocket launcher site. Israel announces a warning beforehand. And Hamas orders the civilians there to stay so they can become "martyrs" for the cause. When those civilians do get killed as a result, people blame Israel for it, and Hamas repeats it because they know the strategy worked for getting people to turn against Israel. This point has been made lots of times in these threads.

That calculus only makes sense if somehow Israeli innocent civilians are somehow worth massively more than Palestinian civilians.

Hamas rockets kill a tiny fraction of the number of civilian Israelis that are killed in road accidents. The current strategy makes as much humanitarian sense as dealing with traffic related deaths by firebombing Detroit.

 

[MikeK]

You are ignoring the defensive aspect of Israel's actions.

I am not. I have many time stated that I support Israel's defense of themselves with systems like IronDome and that I support them using munitions that they can control or commando groups to target individuals who attack them. Using high explosives in populated areas as they are is not truly defensive. If Israel would elect to go after only the guilty individuals I would take no issue with their tactics here. Dropping bombs in cities is grossly negligent, especially so when the threat to Israelis is so relatively small, given the effectiveness of Hamas' attacks.

It's their duty to protect their civilian population. Hamas isn't the only one with innocent civilians. But they are the only one between the two that uses their civilians as human shields. Hamas fires rockets indiscriminately into Israel and deliberately chooses to launch from a site with civilians such as from a school, a mosque, or a hotel. Israel announces a warning before bombing the rocket launcher site. But Hamas orders the civilians there to stay so they can become "martyrs" for the cause. When those civilians do get killed as a result, people blame Israel for it, and Hamas repeats it because they know the strategy worked for getting people to turn against Israel. This point has been made lots of times in these threads.

Israel can fight those who attack her without resorting to methods that put a thousand civilians in their graves in a single month. Israel has a right and a responsibility to defend herself, but she does not have license to do so using methods that have been demonstrated to harm more civilians than combatants. Every bullet and piece of shrapnel must be accounted for. Hamas is guilty of grave evils and among them is certainly their use of human shields. The use of human shields does not excuse the mass killing of civilians.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Ebia,

Israel gives the civilians a warning to evacuate before bombing the rocket site. Hamas orders the civilians to stay and die.

 

[ebia]

Ebia, Israel gives them a warning before bombing the rocket site. Hamas orders the civilians to stay and die.

A. You realise Gaza is not Massachusetts - there's a lack of ability to move to safe places
B. Yeh - Hamas are not angels. That doesn't make being equally bad okay.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

A. You realise Gaza is not Massachusetts - there's a lack of ability to move to safe places
B. Yeh - Hamas are not angels. That doesn't make being equally bad okay.

Hamas are terrorists. I don't know why you want to downplay that fact. Using people for human shields in a "martyr" strategy is terrorism. And dealing with terrorists isn't like community organizing.

 

[ebia]

Hamas are terrorists.

Exactly.

Which is why "Israel is no worse than Hamas" doesn't justify Israel's actions.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Exactly.

Which is why "Israel is no worse than Hamas" doesn't justify Israel's actions.

Do you believe that Israel should sit on their hands and just watch the light show as the rockets drop into their country? And how about the tunnels that Hamas has made for kidnapping Israeli citizens? What do you think Israel should do about that?

 

[isshinwhat]

That calculus only makes sense if somehow Israeli innocent civilians are somehow worth massively more than Palestinian civilians.

Hamas rockets kill a tiny fraction of the number of civilian Israelis that are killed in road accidents. The current strategy makes as much humanitarian sense as dealing with traffic related deaths by firebombing Detroit.

According to Just War Theory, the calculus is not a simple examination of numbers of deaths caused by Hamas' rockets, but the totality of the threat, i.e., rockets/tunnels/suicide bombers, etc, and the military advantage gained through selected application of fires as compared to the negative effects collateral damage. The Geneva Conventions nor LOAC require an even number of casualties, thus Israel's actions are legal and in some sense moral and just.

If you want to argue against their actions effectively, you have to address it within that construct, unfortunately.

 

[ebia]

Do you believe that Israel should sit on their hands and just watch the light show as the rockets drop into their country?

I don't think the number of civilian deaths they cause in Gaza is justified by the actually very modest risk posed by those rockets. Killing one hundred children to save one cannot be justified.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

According to Just War Theory, the calculus is not a simple examination of numbers of deaths caused by Hamas' rockets, but the totality of the threat, i.e., rockets/tunnels/suicide bombers, etc, and the military advantage gained through selected application of fires as compared to the negative effects collateral damage. The Geneva Conventions nor LOAC require an even number of casualties, thus Israel's actions are legal and in some sense moral and just.

If you want to argue against their actions effectively, you have to address it within that construct, unfortunately.

Well said!

 

[LivingWordUnity]

I don't think the number of civilian deaths they cause in Gaza is justified by the actually very modest risk posed by those rockets. Killing one hundred children to save one cannot be justified.

The part where we disagree is where you say "they cause." Hamas orders the civilians to stay and die after Israel warns the civilians to evacuate. Therefore, Hamas is solely responsible for the deaths since they are practicing human sacrifice.