Israel and the church: a distinction?

[Dmckay]

How does that undermine the claim that the church is the true Israel?

Did you even bother to read the text of post number 14 above? Or are you so convinced that what you have heard spoken of by others is true that you disregard the teaching of Scripture that doesn't fit your preconceived outcomes?

G-d has made a clear distinction between the Nation of Israel and His relationship to the Church. The believing remnant of Israel currently becomes a part of the Church as indicated in Galatians. However, as Galatians and Romans 9-11 G-d's promise through the first Covenant with Abraham have NOT been set aside. In fact Paul warns about mking the mistake that G-d is finished with Israel as a nation is clearly defined words in Romans 11:17-34. Don't allow the traditional teachings of your church to allow you to ignore the fact thatt G-d's promises are not made lightly, nor are they broken.

 

[St.Augustine]

In Romans 2 Paul redefines what it means to be a Jew making the point that a Jew is spiritual not fleshy

 

[Jerrysch]

In Romans and Galatians Paul is redefining the meaning of Israel. The matter seems to hinge upon Galatians 3:16 "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, 'And to seeds', as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

This plainly teaches that the seed of Abraham is Jesus Christ and that there is only one seed, that is Jesus Christ. Therefore "if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:29). Therefore I believe that the church is the 'true' Israel or the "Israel of God" (Gal 6:16)

The true Israel of Gal 6:16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

Refers to those of ethnic Israel who believe in Messiah, it does not refer to the church. It is refering to a subset of the church, the ethnic Jews who have become believers in Messiah.
However you are right in relation to the seed it is Jesus Christ. It is easy to forget that God promiced to make him a father of many nations Ro 4:17

 

[Jerrysch]

That view, unfortunately but true; conflicted with the endtime view of the Pharisees of Jesus day, who were looking for an ethnic, geo-political governmental kingdom established by the Messiah.

Christ corrected them too; and they rejected His teachings on the kingdom He was offering.

He corrected them because the Kingdom (Thy kingdom come) was not comming yet, it will come as spoken by the prophets, in His time, not in the timing of man.

 

[Jerrysch]

Sad that many today, as well; still prefer the endtime teachings and expectations that the Pharisees looked for; in opposition to the teachings that Jesus gave them to the contrary.

Some just refuse to accept 'one body' as being just that; and the ethnic distinctions being desolved; as the NT teaches over and over again.

So what is to become of all the unfulfilled prophicies of the Old(er) Testament? Such as Eze. 37 (the dry bones-dem bones)

 

[Jerrysch]

I'm sorry, but isn't the belief that the church and Israel are the same group more synonymous with covenant theology? I thought dispensationalism was supposed to be made up of these important distinctions. I'm with Tracey on this one.

You are correct, one of the hallmarks of dispensationalism is the distinction between Israel and the church, the Two people of God

 

[Dmckay]

Part of the problem that interfers with interpretation of New Testament passages for those of the Covenantal Theology position is that they fail to differentiate between Jews as the Nation of Israel to whom distinct earthly promises have been made, and Jewish believers who come to Christ during the Age of Grace. They lump both together, throw in the gentile church, and define Spiritual Israel as the church and vice versa. Paul is VERY clear in Romans 11 That G-d will graft the natural branch, Israel as a Nation, back into His program when the Age of the Gentiles is complete.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

I think of Hebrews when people talk about this subject...

Hebrews 11 is the faith chapter...How every one saved is by faith...

Goes on talking about old testament saints

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, recieved not the promise.

Hebrews 11:40 God provided something better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

God gave the best promise to the church....the heavens with God.....

Jews recieve the earth!!!!

 

[Jerrysch]

Part of the problem that interfers with interpretation of New Testament passages for those of the Covenantal Theology position is that they fail to differentiate between Jews as the Nation of Israel to whom distinct earthly promises have been made, and Jewish believers who come to Christ during the Age of Grace. They lump both together, throw in the gentile church, and define Spiritual Israel as the church and vice versa. Paul is VERY clear in Romans 11 That G-d will graft the natural branch, Israel as a Nation, back into His program when the Age of the Gentiles is complete.

To do otherwise, we are left with countless promices which YHWH has made with ethnic Israel which would be left undone! It is clear from the Bible that YHWH is not done with the people of Israel.

 

[Dmckay]

Bainecaileag86, (what on earth does that mean?),

You speak of "covenant theology" as if it's a bad word rolling out of your mouth...???

While it's true that covenant theology makes no distinction between the Israel to whom promises were made in the OT and the Church in the NT, this belief is not peculiar to covenant theology: the vast majority of Christendom holds this view, only dispensationalism is out of step with orthodoxy on this point.

Cheers,

Eric

Then that says to me that only those who use a dispensational hermeneutic have a true belief and concept of G-d's Word and His intent to keep all His promises.

 

[Jerrysch]

Your assertion that Paul is redefining the meaning of Israel is false. Paul is making clear the Abrahamic covenant can't be transfered to someone else for fulfillment. He points out that once a covenant has been ratified it can't be changed in any way. This includes provisions and the parties involved. The covenant was made with Abraham and his descendants, and it remains that way.




In spite of your claim that the Church is the "true Israel" the facts of Scripture don't support you. The writers of the New Testament consistently make a distinction between the two. The term Israel is used over seventy times in the New Testament, and in each case referencing ethinic Israel.

Let's look closer at the Scripture text you've quoted as proof of your assertion.

"For neither is circumcsion anything, nor uncircumcsion, but a new creation. And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God" (Gal. 6:15-16).

Your conclusion couldn't be based on anything other than a mistranslation of the word "and" (the word that appears before the term "Israel of God"). In order for your theology to be Scriptural you have to set aside the primary meaning of "and" in favor of the secondary meaning of "even."

Everyone is in agreement that "them" refers to believing Gentiles and using "even" makes the passage read, "mercy be upon them, even the Israel of God." This translation essentially equates believing Gentiles with the Israel of God, but the intepretation is grammatically weak and fails to take into consideration the other uses of Israel in the New Testament. Also, it doesn't deal with the entire context of Paul's discussion with the Galatians. (Verse 16) concludes a letter that warns against Judaizers. The Church was made up of both Jews and Gentiles, but Judaizers were attempting to persuade the Gentiles of the need for circumcsion in order to be saved. Needless to say Paul was in opposition to this teaching, pointing out that everyone was saved the same way, either Jew (the circumcsion) or Gentile (called the uncircumcsion). When he comes to the end of his letter he pronounces a blessing upon those same two groups. Therefore, the word "them" refers to believing Gentiles and the "Israel of God" refers to the believing Jews who were in the Galatian Church.

Examination of (Gal. 6:16) and the rest of the New Testament shows there's no evidence that "Israel" is ever used for anything other than the entire nation or the believing Jews within the nation.

In Christ,
Tracey

This is a correct assessment of these scriptures