Isn't war evil?

[HighlyEvolved]

I find it hard to believe any Christian can endorse war.

Please help me out here.

 

[AndOne]

People are inherantly evil - and people make war. My best defense for war is World War II and America's involvement in it. Hitler was a crazed madman - who held no regard for the sanctity of human life. The fact that he murdered millions of Jewish people cannot be contested. Had America not gotten involved - Hitler would have won the War and the world would be a much different place right now - it would be hell on earth. His genocide wouldn't have ended with the Jews but would have shifted to other races eventually. Democracy would be non-existant.

Many Christians went to fight the evil of Nazi Germany - because it was the right thing to do. War was necessary to end the evil of Hitler. Also my country was attacked at Pearl Harbor - and in retaliating against Japan it was an act of self-defense. I do not consider it evil when I stand up to defend my family and country.

 

[HighlyEvolved]

this is a good point, it is true that evil in a certain form may be seen as morally correct and necessary to prevent a wider evil, just as the ending of the life of one siamese twin to enable the other to live is undoubtedly morally correct.

my issue is iraq, or more specifically war that does not determine the future of mankind, as in iraq? non-violent methods must ALWAYS be extinguished before war as a last resort

in a medical context, iraq is like undertaking a conjoined twins separation

under the belief that both will be killed without the death of one of them
then one life is ended and it turns out the other was never in danger

the freedom of the people in iraq is an afterthought and not a good reason for cruelly ending the lives of 20,000 iraqi citizens all all ages, all with friends and relatives - just on a whim?

george bush - the pre-emptive, reactionary 'war president' - death first, non-violent solutions later

 

[Mistyfogg]

Behe's point was very good. Sometimes war is neccesay and good can come from awar, God works in mysterious ways.

Highly Evolved- I agree whole-heartedly with you on the Iraq war. An evil man (Saddam) is no longer in power, but it should not have been done so forcefully. President Bush calls himself a Christian and many Christians endorse him....maybe the real question is whether Christians should endorse President Bush's own greed and evilness.

I had to watch my own husband leave for war a year ago. I was shaking my head wondering why he must go. I never believed in the war, and neither did he. Most of the troops over there do not believe with the war, but must be deployed because this is what they signed up for.

 

[AndOne]

Like Hitler - Saddam Hussein also practiced genocide - thousands were killed under his ruthless dictatorship. I'd like to know the source of your 20,000 iraqi citizens figure - because I believe that is highly exagerated.

Non-violent solutions were attempted (for over 10 years) - but Hussein refused to cooperate. Bush made the right decision given the information he had as well as the iraqi government's unwillingness to cooperate. If Hussein would have given the UN inspectors free reign to inspect wherever and whenever they wanted - then war could have been avoided. Don't blame George Bush because it was Hussein's stubborness that led to the conflict there. He broke the resolution and the U.S. only did what the inept UN failed to do - the right thing.

Also - there has been a direct link between Hussein's government and AlQueda - and in the grand scheme of things this war could very well have affected the future of mankind in a positive manner.

 

[AndOne]

Most of the troops over there do not believe with the war, but must be deployed because this is what they signed up for.

I disagree - tell that to the national guard MP unit that is over there - mostly made up of NY fire fighters and police officers - who lost friends and family in the 911 terrorist attack.

Misty you can be proud of the job that your husband is doing (or did) over there. Don't loose sight of the fact that he is defending your country - statements like the one quoted above (which is not based on fact) do nothing but hurt morale. Many who are there believe in what they are doing - many who died believed in what they were doing. Please think of them and their families before you make a statement like that in the future.

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

read judges.

And heres a thought: Every war that has actually ended has resulted in peace.

 

[SiteCR2]

Still trying to figure out the original post... War is evil
attempt to bait military into disagreeing w/ our Commander in Chief?
attempt to discover philosphical underpinnings to a deeper meaning of war?
attempt to understand war and why gets waged?

regardless...
Unless I have totally misread my old testament. haven't we had to respond to meet evil from the beginning of time?
Didn't that require armies and war, and didn't we get told by higher authority to make it so? Did David work alone to slay the giant? I think not.

Now if you mean you do NOT agree w/ fighting in Iraq please state so, as you allude in later posts. I am not for war. I did volunteer to fight if called upon and take pride in doing my job. I

Evil must be met and fought, not all must be out right violence, is true. however, before passing judgment realize this...
those who were working to do this peacefully were not always successful and many died. largest majority just were not British, American, Australian or New Zealanders. However, some who did attempt were christian.

So, do you remember where you were when the towers came down and pentagon was attacked?

are they related to Iraq? I do not know for sure. I do know that those I went and fought in Afghanistan were trained in AFG. When I went and fought in Iraq, I didn't ask questions I did as told and believed in what was being done was right.

I still believe evil was taken down a notch. I know those killing Americans, Brits and other allies right now in Iraq are Al Qaeda backed and were responsible for attacking us here.
I prefer (I hope you do too, since fighting right here in our country is not good) to do my job somewhere else, where those here/ and allied countries can still enjoy some great freedoms. You don't have to see what I do, nor experience it. War is UGLY and I pray one day will disappear. Until that day I stand ready.
I go willingly, I do knowing that I can die, I also know that if I die I go to a higher place.
I believe!

If you don't support the war, I don't mind, honestly.
But please support us for going to fight it.
peace out....

 

[Hound]

I have seen this question pop up many times here in the forums. Having fought in many places I believe that war itself is not evil. Genesis 9:6 says, "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man." I have shed the blood of man (including my own), does that mean that someone should come after me? Or was I only striking down those that have killed and will kill again? That is between me and God. As for Iraq, the motto of the 1st Marine Division is "No better friend, No worse enemy." We have helped those who would be our friends, including Iraqi military units that could not be intimidated by the Baath party, and we have destroyed those who would be our enemies. To answer your question a bit more directly, no war is not evil.

 

[HighlyEvolved]

yes saddam practised genocide, but he did nothing to any other country for 10 years, as you say, so how can it be justified to wade in with an army to kill and maim? On the pretence that he had WMD? Intelligence was doctored and sexed up, misrepresented and altered. The weapon inspectors had found nothing. Why was this? Why so desperate to convince the public? Because this was the only legitimate pretext for war - freeing the people does not wash.

So, why was bush so intent to maintain his 'war on terror' even though there was no terror? Well, it benefits his military supplier friends, not to mention oil friends, and a whole load of large US firms which benefited from reconstruction contracts. It also means the US can indirectly establish a presence in the middle east, adding iraq to just about every country in the world.

the war against terror is one which bush knows will be everlasting, since his policies constantly increase anti-american sentient and result in terrorist organisations enlisting far more recruits every day than the US administration ever catches. In arab populated countries, there is a much higher birth rate than in the west - and thanks to bush, they all hate the US even more.

what bush should do is start respecting arabs and stop being such a racist. the reason 9/11 happened was because of decades of US imperialism, arrogance and war. Since WW2 the US has been involved in just about every war going, usually initiating it and causing widespread grief and suffering. The cold war and vietnam was not about stopping evil dictators, instead it was only about the US wanting to stop communism in other parts of the world even though it was none of their business....

For iraq, my figure of 20,000 dead is being approached and will almost certainly be exceeded by the end of the year. i fear a civil war is ready to break out in iraq - there will certainly be no peace there for many years...

Important: the link between Saddam and al-qaeda is completely FALSE. It suits the Bush administration to associate Saddam with terrorist Arabs, be they al-qaeda or palestinian militants...but its all rubbish

And as for war playing a part in the bible, well i dont trust any millenia-old document written by desert nomads convinced they had a direct connection with a god of some sort, to tell me killing other human beings is not wrong. It is only justified as a last resort, to prevent wider evil. full stop. thanks for reading

 

[12volt_man]

this is a good point, it is true that evil in a certain form may be seen as morally correct and necessary to prevent a wider evil,

You haven't demonstrated that war is evil.

the freedom of the people in iraq is an afterthought and not a good reason for cruelly ending the lives of 20,000 iraqi citizens all all ages,

And where do you get these numbers?

all with friends and relatives - just on a whim?

Do you know how much like a petulent child you sound when you say such things?

george bush - the pre-emptive, reactionary 'war president' - death first, non-violent solutions later

Actually, it wasn't "pre-emptive". Perhaps you missed it, but Saddam violated the terms of the cease fire that he, himself, signed. Second, the war was only after thirteen years of failed "non-violent solutions".

Third, it should be noted that Coalition forces went to extraordinary lengths to avoid civilian casualties. While a certain number of innocents will always die in war - and that is a terrible thing - to say that President Bush sought "death first", as though we just went into Iraq shooting first and asking questions later is just ignorant on your part.

 

[12volt_man]

Highly Evolved- I agree whole-heartedly with you on the Iraq war. An evil man (Saddam) is no longer in power, but it should not have been done so forcefully.

And what would you have suggested if not force?

President Bush calls himself a Christian and many Christians endorse him....maybe the real question is whether Christians should endorse President Bush's own greed and evilness.

May I ask what "greed and evilness"?

Most of the troops over there do not believe with the war, but must be deployed because this is what they signed up for.

Actually, that's not true. I have two family members (a sister in law and a nephew) as well as a close friend and one of my students there now and to a man, they tell me that the troops both support this and are confident in their mission.

In addition, nearly every reporter who has come back has commented on the disparity between the attitude of the soldiers and the reports we're getting here.

 

[12volt_man]

read judges.

And heres a thought: Every war that has actually ended has resulted in peace.

Exactly right.

I think the problem here is that those on the looney left are confusing peace with the absence of war and they're not the same thing.

War is terrible. No one is saying otherwise. The problem is that there are those who will only be moved by force. Thirteen years of negotions with Saddam failed. What else should we have done? Give him another thirteen years so he could kill and torture God knows how many more people?

Should we all be a bunch of Neville Chamberlains?

The second problem is that they are confusing pacifism with merely being passive. The two are not the same: one is a principled (if misguided) moral stand and the other is merely cowardice dressed up in self righteousness.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Besides, the US have supported enough cruel dictatorships to render the whole "we did it for the people"-line completely useless. There are many madmen out there, but most of them don't have so much oil to offer.

 

[AndOne]

Besides, the US have supported enough cruel dictatorships to render the whole "we did it for the people"

Examples please...

 

[daidhaid]

Highly Evolved and Misty Fogg hold the high road here.
War is evil.
Hound earned his opinions the hard way so did I.
the rest of you might be watching to much Faux newz.


my nomination for best/goofiest quote...
"I did volunteer to fight if called upon"

 

[Isaiah 53]

yes saddam practised genocide, but he did nothing to any other country for 10 years, as you say, so how can it be justified to wade in with an army to kill and maim? On the pretence that he had WMD? Intelligence was doctored and sexed up, misrepresented and altered. The weapon inspectors had found nothing. Why was this? Why so desperate to convince the public? Because this was the only legitimate pretext for war - freeing the people does not wash.

No reason to bring our forces in??? Tell that to the father that had to watch his children being raped and tortured by government officials, probably for speaking ill of his ruthless dictator.

Tell that to the families of people who were whole-sale slaughtered at the whim of a pair of insane sons.

People amaze me; no matter what America does for the greater good of this miserable planet, people from second-rate countries will always be jealous...

what bush should do is start respecting arabs and stop being such a racist. the reason 9/11 happened was because of decades of US imperialism, arrogance and war. Since WW2 the US has been involved in just about every war going, usually initiating it and causing widespread grief and suffering. The cold war and vietnam was not about stopping evil dictators, instead it was only about the US wanting to stop communism in other parts of the world even though it was none of their business....

You speak so glibbly but are you not british? I seem to remember a Mr. Tony Blair who sent just as many troops to do the exact same thing in Iraq as President Bush did? Oh, but the British are too prim and proper to remember that I suppose? I guess Britian was completely within thier rights in the Fauklands? or Northern Ireland?

What is that saying about glass houses and stones?

And as for war playing a part in the bible, well i dont trust any millenia-old document written by desert nomads convinced they had a direct connection with a god of some sort, to tell me killing other human beings is not wrong. It is only justified as a last resort, to prevent wider evil. full stop. thanks for reading

Well that is your first problem and explains your 'worldly' view of events...

PEACE IN CHRIST!!!

 

[NiemandheißtBoshaftigkeit]

well...I was born to be a warrior, so...

 

[12volt_man]

Highly Evolved and Misty Fogg hold the high road here.
War is evil.

First of all, you still haven't demonstrated that war is evil and simply saying that it's evil doesn't make it evil.

Second, if he "holds the high road", then don't you find it a little telling that he was unable to give an alternative when asked?

 

[daidhaid]

First of all, you still haven't demonstrated that war is evil and simply saying that it's evil doesn't make it evil.?

nuhh huh does so
maybe if you saw war a tad closer up
you could better understand why some see it as evil.
So by all means if your not to old, enlist for combat arms.
that could be your demonstration.

Second, if he "holds the high road", then don't you find it a little telling that he was unable to give an alternative when asked?

Nah nuhh nuh
Try the demonstration first then talk down alternatives.