Isn't war evil?

We must ask ourselfs - If war is evil, were the crusades evil too?
The Crusades where probably one of the best things to happen in religious history, shame it didnt succeed. Those infidels still have that holly grail, they're just keeping it secret.

We must also ask ourselfs - When does a war turn into a world war? and when does a world war turn into a crusade?

If this is a crusade, I'm all for it.
There maybe no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq,
but there is no islam in StarTrek.

no-islam-in-startrek said:

We must ask ourselfs - If war is evil, were the crusades evil too?

Click to expand...

Fighting to put an end to evil, is righteous.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

If we could truely overcome evil through conflict, then was Christ's death in vain? i.e. Much in the same way that if through the law we could be justified then Christ's death would be pointless (Gal. 3?).

inquisitor_11 said:

If we could truely overcome evil through conflict, then was Christ's death in vain? i.e. Much in the same way that if through the law we could be justified then Christ's death would be pointless (Gal. 3?).

Click to expand...

Just when I despaired, thinking Christians are no more than republican ideologues, you came through with a post.

Jesus of Nazareth is the Jesus that changed the world.
War also changes the world.
They are not the same.




You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to inquisitor_11 again.

inquisitor_11 said:

If we could truely overcome evil through conflict, then was Christ's death in vain? i.e. Much in the same way that if through the law we could be justified then Christ's death would be pointless (Gal. 3?).

Click to expand...

Jesus did not die for evil. Jesus died for sins. We can only overcome evil with truth, not war.

Evil is not the same thing as sin. We are all sinners. Believers are sinners saved by grace. Evil rejects the notion that all sin, or certain sins, are wrong. Evil is a system of justifying and glorifying sin.

We are all born sinners. When Adam sinned we all were doomed to be born with a sin nature. We all sin.

" Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned.."
Romans 5:12 niv

Faith is God's system of thinking that correctly deals with our sins. Faith is God's system that allows us to accept ourselves while being sinners saved by grace.

Evil reflects Satan's system of countering God's faith. Evil are lies (a system of thinking) which is devised to justify and glorify sin.

Jesus died for our sins. He even died for the sins of all who reject him.

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2 niv

Everyone's sins are paid for. No one is going to Hell for their sins. Anyone who is going to Hell, will be for evil. Evil is anti-Faith.

Wars exist because of evil, not sin. Men fighting against evil aggressors are not themselves evil automatically. If they are on the right side, they are not fighting for evil. Evil will attempt to call the good as being evil, for evil can not see good in men where ever intrinsic good may be.

Sinners can be evil. Or, sinners can be declared righteous by God if they walk in faith. Having wars does not mean Jesus died in vain. Jesus died because of sin. Not evil.

Example:

If you lust in your heart for a woman, that is sin. If you acknowledge your sin before God you are forgiven. If you refuse to acknowledge your sin, and find reason to see your sin as being something good, then you are fallen into evil. Evil calls God a liar.

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:8-9 niv

We can not overcome evil via war. We fight wars in order to win as to remain alive, so that God can give the faithful living more truth which refutes evil.

Those who accept and receive the required truth (sound doctrine by faith) which is needed to refute the evil of their given generation, these are those who the Bible says are overcomers.

"To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne." Rev 3:21 niv

Our warfare is not against flesh and blood. Evil is not overcome by greater physical violence against evil. Winning a war only prevents evil from having its way against its target. Yet, evil is only overcome by Faith. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. Faith goes to the source of all evil, and pulls it out at the roots. Patriotism without faith will pull out the evil from above the surface. But, like weeds, unless you get out the root, that weed will grow back at a later time. Only sound doctrine can root out evil.

"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. " 2 Timothy 4:3 niv

Too many believers will seek out false doctrine (evil) and are in themselves justifying their preferred actions. So we will face war throughout history.

Jesus told us that there will be wars until he returns. Only a generation at a time can have peace. That given generation would be one that has in their land a great spiritual revival where sound doctrine is not rejected by the majority of believers. These generations are rare. If we had such a revival in the United States, Al Quida would have been exposed and wiped out long before any real major harm could have been done. Yet, what harm is now taking place is like a trumpet sounding, calling us to put down our false teachings in humility and to seek out sound doctrine.

If we see more disorder and attacks in our nation in future days, it means not enough believers are seeking after genuine faith in our land. We need to become the "salt of the earth." We need to be able to accept correction. After all, that is what humility is. Being correctable without becoming arrogant about it.



Grace and peace, GeneZ

daidhaid said:

Just when I despaired, thinking Christians are no more than republican ideologues, you came through with a post.

Click to expand...

Well, if that be the case. Can you mention some liberal ideologies that a Christian can agree with? If the liberals stood for more Biblical thinking, you'd see more Christian Democrat (liberal) ideologues. Before the Democratic party became what it has today, you would have seen Christians on both sides, in a much more balanced fashion.

OK... to be fair. Give us some current liberal Democrat thinking that a Christian should endorse.

GeneZ

Genez, alot of your ideas about evil are pretty normative. I agree entirely that a fundamental part of christian living is an active involvement in the issues of the world, and that we must seek to overcome evil. However I think the means that we are to do that through is quite different.

"In the Old Testament personal rights are protected by a divinely established system of retribution. Every evil ust be requited. The aim of retribution is to establish a proper community, to convict and overcome evil and eradicate it from the body politic of the people of God. That is the purpose of the law which is maintained by retribution.

Jesus takes up his declaration of the divine will and affirms the power of retribution to convict and overcome evil and to ensure the fellowship of the disciples as the true Israel. By exercising the right kind of retribution evil is to be overcome and thus the true disciple will prove himself.

The right way to requite evil, according to Jesus, is not to resist it.

This saying of Christ removes the Church from the sphere of politics and law. The Church is not to be a national community like the old Israel, but a community of believers without political or national ties. The old Israel had been both- the chosen people of God and and a national community, and it was therefore his will that they should meet force with force. But with the Church it is different: it has abandoned political and national status, and therefore it must patiently endure aggression. Otherwise evil will be heaped upon evil. Only thus can fellowship be established and maintained.

At this point it becomes evident that when a Christian meets with injustice, he no longer clings to his rights and defends them at all costs. He is absolutely free from from possessions and bound to Christ alone. Again, his witness to this exclusive adherence to Jesus creates the only workable basis for fellowship, and leaves the aggressor for him to deal with.

The only way to overcome evil is to let it run itself to a standstill because it does not find the resistance it is looking for. Resistance merely creates further evil and adds fuel to the flames. But when evil meets no oppostion and encounters no obstacle but patient endurance, its sting is drawn, and at last it meets an opponent which is more than its match. Of course this can only happen when the last ounce of resistance is abandoned, and the renunciation of revenge is complete. Then evil cannot find it's mark, it can breed no further evil, and is left barren."

-Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Cost of Discipleship

I'd love to post the entire chapter, but I won't. He goes on to talk about how Jesus overcame sin through his suffering etc. I'm not completely sold on the idea, as I feel that taking it too far results in Christians being neutered and unable to work towards mercy and justice. But, like I've said, I'm still working it all out.

Jesus told us that there will be wars until he returns. Only a generation at a time can have peace. That given generation would be one that has in their land a great spiritual revival where sound doctrine is not rejected by the majority of believers. These generations are rare. If we had such a revival in the United States, Al Quida would have been exposed and wiped out long before any real major harm could have been done. Yet, what harm is now taking place is like a trumpet sounding, calling us to put down our false teachings in humility and to seek out sound doctrine.

Click to expand...

Which is the greater evil? Al-Qaeda resisting western oppression and neo-colonialism or those people, structures and companies that cause the inequality and oppression that they are reacting to?

How exactly do you define biblical thinking? Does it have more to do with the right to bear arms or the responsibility to provide for the poor and the refugee?

Many people in the secular/ non-christian world readily recognise and challenge evil, and do not seek to justify it as many churches and religious groups (not just "christian") do.

e.g. The Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda. Their leader wants to restore their country to a government run by the 10 commandments. The LRA has "terrorized ...Uganda for a decade, attacking and pillaging schools, villages and refugee camps. They have seized as many as 10,000 young people.... where they become sex slaves, beasts of burden... and eventually child soldiers." - Ray wilkinson, Refugees Magazine.

Hmm, I forget where i was going with this.... that'll do.

I hate an aspect of this forum's format! You click the back button, and all you spent writing and thinking for the last hour is lost! This has happened to me more than once!

Starting all over again...

inquisitor_11 said:

In the Old Testament personal rights are protected by a divinely established system of retribution. Every evil must be requited. The aim of retribution is to establish a proper community, to convict and overcome evil and eradicate it from the body politic of the people of God. That is the purpose of the law which is maintained by retribution.

Click to expand...

That was in regards to civil and national law. We still have that today established by government. USA was based upon Judeo/Christian thinking.

Jesus takes up his declaration of the divine will and affirms the power of retribution to convict and overcome evil and to ensure the fellowship of the disciples as the true Israel. By exercising the right kind of retribution evil is to be overcome and thus the true disciple will prove himself.

The right way to requite evil, according to Jesus, is not to resist it.

Click to expand...

You must be speaking in reference to "turn your cheek."

That was concerning life under an overpowering occupying power. The Romans were ruthless and cold hearted. Many of the Jews were proud. When a Roman made a demand and it was resisted, if they slapped a proud Jew, the Jew might resist and end up with more than just a slap in the face. He may end up dead, or maimed for life. "Turn thy cheek" was Jesus telling the occupied Jews to stay alive, and how. It was not a prescription for a way of life for the Church. Jesus was not teaching the Church. He was teaching Jews who were living under the Law.

This saying of Christ removes the Church from the sphere of politics and law. The Church is not to be a national community like the old Israel, but a community of believers without political or national ties. The old Israel had been both- the chosen people of God and and a national community, and it was therefore his will that they should meet force with force. But with the Church it is different: it has abandoned political and national status, and therefore it must patiently endure aggression. Otherwise evil will be heaped upon evil. Only thus can fellowship be established and maintained.

Click to expand...

A Christian has a even greater power to effect his community. Its an immutable spiritual principle that applies very much to today.

"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men." Matthew 5:13 niv

Trampled on by men? I see that as having ones land over run by secular reasoning if not enough believers grow in grace and truth. Then, eventually, that nation loses its sovereignty as a nation. Men's thinking, and men's power over runs. If there is spiritual revival in the land, then God heals and blesses their nation.

" if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. " 2 Chronicles 7:14 niv

"Wicked ways," does not have to mean debauchery. It can mean that Christians decide to live by secular reasoning, conforming to the ways of the world.

"Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will." Romans 12:2 niv

At this point it becomes evident that when a Christian meets with injustice, he no longer clings to his rights and defends them at all costs. He is absolutely free from possessions and bound to Christ alone. Again, his witness to this exclusive adherence to Jesus creates the only workable basis for fellowship, and leaves the aggressor for him to deal with.

Click to expand...

That is not true! Not for all circumstances! Jesus never claimed that for all things!

"Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house." Matthew 12:29 niv

"In fact, no one can enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house." Mark 3:27 niv

"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe." Luke 11:21 niv

Jesus was for the right to bear arms!

The only way to overcome evil is to let it run itself to a standstill because it does not find the resistance it is looking for. Resistance merely creates further evil and adds fuel to the flames. But when evil meets no opposition and encounters no obstacle but patient endurance, its sting is drawn, and at last it meets an opponent which is more than its match. Of course this can only happen when the last ounce of resistance is abandoned, and the renunciation of revenge is complete. Then evil cannot find it's mark, it can breed no further evil, and is left barren."

-Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Cost of Discipleship

Click to expand...

Maybe that applied to his given situation in the concentration camp. But, if it is to be taken as all encompassing truth, for all situations... then he has just created a philosophy on life out of a Biblical principle. Biblical truth is not philosophy on how to live. Its direction on how to yield to the Holy Spirit so we do not resist his enabling power in us.

I'd love to post the entire chapter, but I won't. He goes on to talk about how Jesus overcame sin through his suffering etc. I'm not completely sold on the idea, as I feel that taking it too far results in Christians being neutered and unable to work towards mercy and justice. But, like I've said, I'm still working it all out.

Click to expand...

Yes... it could be neutering. Jesus was powerful and straight forward. He was also gentle when applicable. Problem is, we have received a false image of Jesus.

"Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him..." 1 Corinthians 11:14 niv

When pagans were converting to Christianity during a certain era, they began to paint pictures of what they envisioned Jesus to look like. They took their image from the pagan practice of having effeminate looking priests with long hair. Jesus was not some emaciated skinny person. He was powerful. He was strong. He is the only man to walk this earth (other than Adam before his fall) having absolute perfect health. Why do you think so many soldiers were sent to arrest Jesus? He was physically powerful, and they knew it.

"So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables." John 2:15 niv

Ever try to lift a small sack of pennies? Money is heavy. Gold and silver are heavy... and those wooden tables were very heavy as well. Jesus tossed them around and cleared them out of the Temple. He was a physically powerful man. He was not some long haired, emaciated, wimp.

Which is the greater evil? Al-Qaeda resisting western oppression and neo-colonialism or those people, structures and companies that cause the inequality and oppression that they are reacting to?

Click to expand...

Bull! Their sentiment and hatred is nothing new. Not something we caused. Even before WWll, the Muslim sect of Moros in the Philippines were murdering American soldiers because they saw all Americans as being the evil Christian nation. In a frenzy of Jihad they would jump out with a knife, stabbing American soldiers to death. It was because of the Moros that the officers began carrying the larger caliber 45 pistols. For what they were using while they were getting butchered was not stopping these Jihad crazed Moros. Because of this sect, 45 caliber pistols were issued! Why? To kill a Christian, was to gain points in their after life. They probably get double points for killing a Jew.

How exactly do you define biblical thinking? Does it have more to do with the right to bear arms or the responsibility to provide for the poor and the refugee?

Click to expand...

You need balance. Jesus said that a man who arms himself will not have his house broken into. Yet, we are to give to the poor when we are able.

Many people in the secular/ non-christian world readily recognise and challenge evil, and do not seek to justify it as many churches and religious groups (not just "christian") do.

Click to expand...

Many a time, its a greater evil confronting a lesser evil. With God's system, we are to confront evil with intrinsic good. When one is filled with the Spirit and mature in knowing God's Word, the enemy never can tell in what creative way God will be working through his faithful ones. God gives insight.

"The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." John 3:8 niv

Where's that guy coming from??? What's he up to??? (that is the reaction evil will have when confronted by a prepared Spirit filled believer).


"The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[Or darkness, and the darkness has not overcome] it." John 1:5 niv

Evil can not overcome, nor understand Divine good.

The highest form of creativity will come from the Spirit filled person who has matured in Christ.

e.g. The Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda. Their leader wants to restore their country to a government run by the 10 commandments. The LRA has "terrorized ...Uganda for a decade, attacking and pillaging schools, villages and refugee camps. They have seized as many as 10,000 young people.... where they become sex slaves, beasts of burden... and eventually child soldiers." - Ray wilkinson, Refugees Magazine.

Hmm, I forget where i was going with this.... that'll do.

Click to expand...

That is a stupid move. Such spiritual stupidity reveals why they are suffering so in the first place. No "salt of the earth" to be found there. What they need is a Word of God spiritual revival. One where Christians will be given sound doctrine and will mature in Christ by learning the full council of God's Word. The 10 C's were only for Israel. Its Law.


"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law."
Galatians 5:18 niv

Grace and peace, GeneZ

Click to expand...

I feel your back button pain- I had that happen once on another forum after typing for ages. *internet angst*

That was in regards to civil and national law. We still have that today established by government. USA was based upon Judeo/Christian thinking.

Click to expand...

I'm not questioning the need for governments to govern. I'm questioning the role of christian's within a nation-state framework. Judeo-Christian thinking is what is motivating the LRA. Mein Kampf was full of Judeo-Christian thinking. Just because you can clothe something in spiritual language doesn't make it true or legit. i.e. the "biblical" basis for prosperity doctrine / racism.

You must be speaking in reference to "turn your cheek."

Click to expand...

In that chapter Bonhoeffer was talking about revenge.

That was concerning life under an overpowering occupying power. The Romans were ruthless and cold hearted. Many of the Jews were proud. When a Roman made a demand and it was resisted, if they slapped a proud Jew, the Jew might resist and end up with more than just a slap in the face. He may end up dead, or maimed for life. "Turn thy cheek" was Jesus telling the occupied Jews to stay alive, and how

Click to expand...

That may well be true (despite the normative statements about roman rule...). So does that mean that it is now okay to openly lust, to judge hypocritically and to "build my house on the sand" (They are all a part of the same passage)?

Jesus was not teaching the Church.

Click to expand...

When did Jesus start teaching the church? I never realised he drew a division.

"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men." Matthew 5:13 niv

Click to expand...

I thought Jesus wasn't teaching the church yet?

" if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. " 2 Chronicles 7:14 niv

Click to expand...

Waaaaaay before Jesus started teaching the church...

That is not true! Not for all circumstances! Jesus never claimed that for all things!

Click to expand...

A few lines before you said that it was God's will that we must conform to, not to "secular ways". Now you say that we musn't always cling to Christ and him alone. So which things did Jesus claim that for?

Bull! Their sentiment and hatred is nothing new. Not something we caused.

Click to expand...

That's true, the animosity between Muslims and Christians is nothing new. However the current state of affairs is something the western-world have created. If we had not been exploiting and abusing them for so long there would be no ****sed-off muslims to support them/ join their cause.

Perfect example: Proir to Iraq round 3, Iraq appears to have had very little to with Al-Qaeda's Islamic network (they were linked to Palestinian terrorists though). Now however, it has become the major battle ground, with ever increasing numbers of Al-Qadea types and Muhajedens (sp?) flowing into the country to shoot americans.

Before American involvement= no Al-Qaeda
After American involvement= lots of Al-Qaeda and more angry Muslims

Perfect example 2: A few years back, among west-bank palestinians there was something like 20% support for suicide-bombers. Now that figure is around 80%. Why? Well it's either because they all of a sudden decided to hate Jews more OR it may have something to do with Israel's policies and action on the west-bank.

"Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house." Matthew 12:29 niv

"In fact, no one can enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house." Mark 3:27 niv

"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe." Luke 11:21 niv

Jesus was for the right to bear arms!

Click to expand...

"A text out of context is a pretext for failure"

From memory that was a parable. Not only have you taken it out of it's immeadiate context, but also out of it's complete context. Jesus also tells a parable where he commends a dishonest manager. According to your logic, Jesus also supports the right to steal from your employer.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that the kingdom of heaven is equally about the right to bear arms as it is about providing for the poor?

Maybe that applied to his given situation in the concentration camp. But, if it is to be taken as all encompassing truth, for all situations... then he has just created a philosophy on life out of a Biblical principle. Biblical truth is not philosophy on how to live. Its direction on how to yield to the Holy Spirit so we do not resist his enabling power in us.

Click to expand...

At this stage Bonhoeffer was teaching an illegal bible college. He had recently returned to Germany after passing up on the opportunity to go to India and study non-violent resistance with Ghandi. Bohoeffer was one of the biggest advocates of not extracting all encompassing "philosophy" or rules to govern our behaviour. Rather, as the passage I posted illustrates, we are simply to look to Christ alone, and that it is single-minded obedience to Christ which defines our lives.

inquisitor_11 said:

I'm not questioning the need for governments to govern. I'm questioning the role of christian's within a nation-state framework. Judeo-Christian thinking is what is motivating the LRA. Mein Kampf was full of Judeo-Christian thinking. Just because you can clothe something in spiritual language doesn't make it true or legit. i.e. the "biblical" basis for prosperity doctrine / racism.

Click to expand...

Just because Hitler tried to cloak his words in Biblical language? Those who can use it as a point of reference, are no longer legit? The very fact that Hitler tried, reveals the quality Biblical thinking can add to a thought. Yet, the KKK quoted the Bible before performing their evil deeds. Anyone with good discernment should have no problem seeing between the two. No ability for discernment? Who cares? They can not get anything right, no matter how clear the presentation may be. Such is life. It just so happens that the American Constitution was based upon having a religious people in Christ.

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --John Adams

That may well be true (despite the normative statements about roman rule...). So does that mean that it is now okay to openly lust, to judge hypocritically and to "build my house on the sand" (They are all a part of the same passage)?

Click to expand...

Jesus spoke against those things.

So, how can you now be telling us that somehow, that they could to be taken as to being seen as being alright? I think your apparent objective is making you subjective.

When did Jesus start teaching the church? I never realised he drew a division.

Click to expand...

Jesus at times taught things concerning the Church. Many a time, things he taught were directly related to the Jews under Law, and he spoke as a Jew under Law. Paul was delegated the ministry of "the mystery." The Church was hidden from OT prophecy. The Jews knew the Messiah was to come and set up his Kingdom. But, no one before Penetcost had any idea of what was about to begin. The Church age involved a brand new type of spiritual species, called the Church age believer. Jesus could only teach principles that universally applied to both ages (at times). But, Jesus could not teach about being a new creation in Christ, and what it entails. He could only teach as one teaching Jews under Law. They wondered about some things he did mention, for they had no capacity for it at that time. But, most (not all) of Jesus teachings in the Gospels are directed to Jews under Law.

Example: Jesus spoke about tithing as a legitimate function of the believer. This money was to be collected and supplied to the priests. Yet, during the Church age, we are all our own priest! And, tithing (OT income tax) no longer applies to us! Yet, those who can not discern between one dispensation and another, will demand that parishioners tithe 10% of their income.

"Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." 2 Corinthians 9:7 niv

Yet, Jesus spoke of tithing in the Gospels as a normal function. It was. To the Jew living under Law. Many try to quote Jesus words as a justification to get their congregation to guarantee a 10% take. Rightly dividing the Word of God avoids this error. Yet, Jesus also mentioned "universal" principles. Like, becoming the "salt of the earth." Becoming a faithful believer as required of your given dispensation. Again, that comes under the heading of "rightly dividing" the Word of God.

I thought Jesus wasn't teaching the church yet?

Click to expand...

I did not say all. You saw that I did.

Waaaaaay before Jesus started teaching the church...

Click to expand...

Again... The Bible is not to be taken as software that you simply download without thinking. All Scripture is God breathed... We are to discern what holds universal value, and what is only applicable to those under Law.

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16-17 niv

"All Scripture".... That includes OT Scripture. The problem is when a reader can not discern between what applies directly to his specific spiritual life, and what applied to those under Law. Under Law certain sins were punishable by death. In our dispensation we can know from these passages what God dissaproves of strongly by reading the Law, but the death penalty no longer applies. If we do not rightly divide the Word of God, we will be demanding the same type of punishments. Yet, when reading the Law, we must discern between what is law concerning spiritual and civil offence, and felonies. There is still punishment for certain crimes. Again... rightly dividing the Word is essential for national stability.

A few lines before you said that it was God's will that we must conform to, not to "secular ways". Now you say that we musn't always cling to Christ and him alone. So which things did Jesus claim that for?

Click to expand...

I tried going back to see what you are getting at here. I do not understand your question. This time, please try quoting me from what you are referring to, and reword your question? Thank you.

That's true, the animosity between Muslims and Christians is nothing new. However the current state of affairs is something the western-world have created. If we had not been exploiting and abusing them for so long there would be no ****sed-off muslims to support them/ join their cause.

Click to expand...

I lived in Israel for a summer. I drove through Arab sections. They live in a different world. Thousands of years apart. Soldiers in Afghanistan felt that they had fallen into a time warp. There is a natural anomosity between both worlds. It would be like saying we had it coming to us, because we exlpoited the Communist nations of our recent past. They will lie and find excuses for their antagonism in order to get the one they wish to attack to feel he is the cause of his own problem. You are falling for the propaganda.

Perfect example: Proir to Iraq round 3, Iraq appears to have had very little to with Al-Qaeda's Islamic network (they were linked to Palestinian terrorists though). Now however, it has become the major battle ground, with ever increasing numbers of Al-Qadea types and Muhajedens (sp?) flowing into the country to shoot americans.

Click to expand...

I suppose you do not get the same news in your part of the Word. Russian President Putin, recently announced that he gave America intelligence information about Saddam having trained terrorist agents planning to harm the United States. We did not attack because of Al Qaida being there. We attacked because of another terrorists group having plans against us.

Go here: http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/89-06182004-318783.html

Before American involvement= no Al-Qaeda
After American involvement= lots of Al-Qaeda and more angry Muslims

Click to expand...

So? They have a common cause. Common hatred. Surprised? Hello?

Perfect example 2: A few years back, among west-bank palestinians there was something like 20% support for suicide-bombers. Now that figure is around 80%. Why? Well it's either because they all of a sudden decided to hate Jews more OR it may have something to do with Israel's policies and action on the west-bank.

Click to expand...

You have no idea how the majority of Arabs have ALWAYS hated the Jews. No idea at all!

When Israel became a nation in 1948, the surrounding Arab nations broadcasted into Israel that all their Arab brothers should leave, for they were about to level Israel. Not all Arabs wanted to leave. Yet, many did. The Israelis requested that they would not leave.

Guess what? Israel defeated the multi Arab armies! Humiliated them totally! And, guess what else? The Palestinians no longer could go back.

Now they scream (lie) that they were kicked out. Yet, there were Arabs who refused to leave. Today, the Israeli Kennesit begins its sessions in both Arabic and Hebrew. Arabs are Israeli citizens. The Palestinians were traitors and wanted Israel destroyed. And, with all the vast land mass owned by Arab nations they refuse to take in the Palestinian refugees. Why? They are a political pawn used by the Arab enemies of Israel in order to gain leverage in popular world opinion.

Problem for them, more people today are becoming better informed. People today are seeing how insane and unreasonalble those who wish to destroy Israel are. President Bush refuses to bow to Arafat's schemes. He is one president who sees the evil that lurks within Arafat's deceitful heart. That is why he decided to not bow to the UN. The UN sided with Arafat 99.999% of the time. We are being lied to. So far, you are sucking on the bait. That's why the bait is out there.

Grace and truth... GeneZ

Anyone with good discernment should have no problem seeing between the two

Click to expand...

Unfortuently christian history shows that what is considered "good discernment" is usually "in the eye of the beholder". Plenty of mainstream churches in the US used the bible to justify racism. Even some of Martin Luther's writings would appear to be anti-semitic. Just as your example about tithing shows (and I think we can agree on this), is that "good discernment" appears to be fluid and defined by the expositor.

Again... The Bible is not to be taken as software that you simply download without thinking. All Scripture is God breathed... We are to discern what holds universal value, and what is only applicable to those under Law.

Click to expand...

True, but it is not for us to arbitararily decide what applies to us and what doesn't.

Jesus spoke against those things.

So, how can you now be telling us that somehow, that they could to be taken as to being seen as being alright? I think your apparent objective is making you subjective

Click to expand...

Jesus spoke against those, practically in the same breath as spoke against revenge, being angry and to love our enemies. Yet, you say that he really only meant some of it. You also say that you do so, out of good discernment. So effectively, by that same logic, you can pick and choose what bits you like and what you don't.

Yes, the Holy Spirit does provide us with wisdom, discernemnt and whatever else we need. However, I think your approach (and all dispensationalism) is flawed. In this context Jesus didn't say "pick apart my words", rather he said "go and do likewise".

I lived in Israel for a summer. I drove through Arab sections. They live in a different world. Thousands of years apart. Soldiers in Afghanistan felt that they had fallen into a time warp. There is a natural anomosity between both worlds

Click to expand...

Cultural differences aside, do you really think these people want to be "backwards" and live in 3rd world conditions?

In Australia our native people group are among the most disadvantaged and marginalised- over represented in all the wrong statistics and classed by the UN as 3rd world. Do you think that marginalised groups, like Australian aborigines and Palestinians choose to live like this?

They will lie and find excuses for their antagonism in order to get the one they wish to attack to feel he is the cause of his own problem. You are falling for the propaganda.

Click to expand...

I understand the issues of the Arab-Israeli conflict. However, the Palestinian issue is a real problem, regardless of whether or not they are being used for political leverage or not. People should not political footballs. Not all Palestinians are Muslims either, a portion of them are christians as well.

I suppose you do not get the same news in your part of the Word. Russian President Putin, recently announced that he gave America intelligence information about Saddam having trained terrorist agents planning to harm the United States. We did not attack because of Al Qaida being there. We attacked because of another terrorists group having plans against us.

Click to expand...

Yeah I heard that one. It's not like Putin has got anything to gain from the war on terror continuing. Your govt. keeps backfliping on the issue. I'm sure the reason for the war will be retrospectively changed again soon. We have the same thing going here.

You have no idea how the majority of Arabs have ALWAYS hated the Jews. No idea at all!

Click to expand...

Possibly, as I have neither been an Arab or a Jew. However this problem is not confined to Arabs or Jews, nor is it confined to a simple ethnocentric hatred. The issue is far bigger. As is the whole war on terror.

We are being lied to. So far, you are sucking on the bait

Click to expand...

How did you come to that conclusion? I simply cited some figures about how the support for suicide bombers had increased since the peace process broke down. To be perfectly honest, I don't know where I stand on the Palestinian issue. What I do know is that on both sides people are increasing prepared to lie, cheat and kill to get what they want. Some where in the middle of all that are real people.

A good example of the people they are fighting against, will stand in lines to get free aide and medicine and food, talk nicely to you and then when the sun goes down they let loose and curse you and antagonize you and they threaten your life daily. From what I understand from the people I have spoken to who have been there, you can't tell the civilians from the rebels because they don't wear uniforms with a giant sign that says "REBELS" on it. We were being hit by car bombs and all other kinds of things down there, that yeah in a sense it was a "shoot first, ask later". But not to the extent that they went around shooting civilians for the fun of it. Look the way I see it, if we didn't do things this way then the rest of the world would be angry no matter what we did differently. I just know that I am tired of hearing how horrible our men and women down there are. I live with them and their families day in and day out, and yes, they aren't perfect, but they aren't just cold blooded murderers either.

inquisitor_11 said:

Unfortuently christian history shows that what is considered "good discernment" is usually "in the eye of the beholder". Plenty of mainstream churches in the US used the bible to justify racism. Even some of Martin Luther's writings would appear to be anti-semitic. Just as your example about tithing shows (and I think we can agree on this), is that "good discernment" appears to be fluid and defined by the expositor.

Click to expand...

Knowing who has good discernment, requires discernment. That only comes by grace in God's plan. Maybe only five people in this generation has good discernment (I hope not)... The whole world would not know who they are. God's plan does not depend on the approval of our peers. Matter of fact, those who have the best discernment might end up being hated by most men.
It all depends on the given generation. There is no formula to knowing who has good discernment. Almost all men think they are wise in their own eyes. God's grace is the only way to knowing the Truth. The Truth will make you free. Those who have it, know it. Those who think they have it live phantom lives. God keeps those who have it free, by keeping those who don't, from knowing who they are.

True, but it is not for us to arbitararily decide what applies to us and what doesn't.

Click to expand...

Rightly dividing the Word of God is an acquired skill. Most will BS there way from the pulpits.

"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."
2 Timothy 4:3 niv

A " great number of teachers?" Yet, if the Holy Spirit had his way, only a few would ever teach.

" Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment. " James 3:1 nasb

Jesus warned that the majority throughout history will take the broad and wide way of interpretation of Truth. That it will destroy their spiritual life they were given. Yet, only some will find their way. And, that way will be strict and under pressure while they are finding their way. But, once they break through to maturity, they will find a great capacity for life. After all, Jesus came to give life more abundantly. Not many find it.

"Enter through the narrow gate (means strict); for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. "For the gate is small (strict) and the way is narrow (under pressure) that leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:13-14

Throughout history, only a few have found the inner happiness and joy that learning sound doctrine will produce in a believer. Paul warned that most will not want to endure (out up with) sound doctrine... Their ears itch to hear things that satisfy their subjective desires on what they want Christianity to be. Discernment? There will always be someone in each generation who has it. Others will not know it. Hopefully, in his given generation there will be many. That is called a Word of God revival when it happens.

Jesus spoke against those, practically in the same breath as spoke against revenge, being angry and to love our enemies. Yet, you say that he really only meant some of it. You also say that you do so, out of good discernment. So effectively, by that same logic, you can pick and choose what bits you like and what you don't.

Click to expand...

Again, if you do not quote exactly what it is I am accepting, and rejecting, I have no idea what it is you think you are seeing. You may be right. But the way you present it I can not know.

Yes, the Holy Spirit does provide us with wisdom, discernemnt and whatever else we need. However, I think your approach (and all dispensationalism) is flawed. In this context Jesus didn't say "pick apart my words", rather he said "go and do likewise".

Click to expand...

Jesus said that if any one remove a single jot or tittle from Scripture there would be a curse on him. That speaks of removing only the equivalent of a period, or comma. Jesus wants us to be very picky in our translation. Trouble is, we are already depending upon translations done for us by mainstream translators. The real good ones are not usually found on the shelves of Christian bookstores. Most are limited in conveying the original intent. Besides, that job has been delegated to pastor-teachers. Most who are in the pulpits today are preaching to the choir. Transformation only comes when you learn something which is beyond yourself that requires grace to get you to where it wants you to be. Most will not endure that kind of teaching. It offends their natural self esteem.

"Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise." 1 Corinthians 3:18 niv

Those who have natural self esteem are often times offended by sound doctrine at first. Because it frightens them to discover how stupid they really are. That what they felt so sure about, is totally wrong. Those who refuse seek to justify their personal subjective experiences and will seek out teachers who will spin Scripture to tell things that justify what they wish to believe.

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires." 2 Timothy 4:3 nasb

They won't endure. Because they want to preserve their natural self esteem. They want to base their self esteem upon their natural gifts and abilities. Or, upon their cherished prejudices and natural preferences.

"For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it." Matthew 16:25 niv

Most refuse to accept the Truth. For the Truth has no favoritism. Nor does it respect natural ability as a means for approval by God. There are those who think how sweet they are, that God has to love them because they are such nice people. Not so.

"Sanctify them by the Truth; your Word is Truth." John 17:17 niv

Sound doctrine gives discernment. What most churches give forth (beyond the fundamental basics) is nothing more than self justification for the prevailing temperament of its congregation. Certain subjective approaches attract a particular type of person. When you find a church that attracts a wide variety of normally not compatible people, it may indicate something is happening there, if they are made to harmonize because of the teaching. The teaching is everything. If that is not right, nothing else will be. No matter how great the works may appear to be to the human eye.

" Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ." Galatians 1:10 niv

Cultural differences aside, do you really think these people want to be "backwards" and live in 3rd world conditions?

Click to expand...

Its the spirit they choose to follow. God prospers those who prosper, if they be his own.

In Australia our native people group are among the most disadvantaged and marginalised- over represented in all the wrong statistics and classed by the UN as 3rd world. Do you think that marginalised groups, like Australian aborigines and Palestinians choose to live like this?

Click to expand...

I understand the issues of the Arab-Israeli conflict. However, the Palestinian issue is a real problem, regardless of whether or not they are being used for political leverage or not. People should not political footballs. Not all Palestinians are Muslims either, a portion of them are christians as well.

Click to expand...

The fact remains. They left on their own. They lost the war. They could not get back in. Yet, others of their brethren did not leave. After the war they were not asked to leave. They remained. They are citizens today. Most of the Palestinians are trained to hate the Jews from the time they can speak. The Arabs who stayed in Israel find it to be their nation, The Druid Arabs even fight in the Israeli army. I know. I visited a Druid home when I was there. Very nice people. They love Israel. They acted nothing like the typical Palestinian.

They left before the great war. They were told to leave by their own people. They lost. Those who told them to leave should be responsible for them. Not Israel. You are getting a bit subjective here, letting your emotions lead you. That is why we are propagandized so much. Its the Arab nations that are treating the Palestinians wrongly. After they deserted Israel they have no right to return. The Arabs who stayed, have every right to be citizens, and are.

Yeah I heard that one. It's not like Putin has got anything to gain from the war on terror continuing. Your govt. keeps backfliping on the issue. I'm sure the reason for the war will be retrospectively changed again soon. We have the same thing going here.

Click to expand...

Its the media that's back flipping. Not the President.

Possibly, as I have neither been an Arab or a Jew. However this problem is not confined to Arabs or Jews, nor is it confined to a simple ethnocentric hatred. The issue is far bigger. As is the whole war on terror.

Click to expand...

Its bigger than that. Hitler wanted all Jews destroyed from the face of the earth. All wiped out. The Russians pogroms wanted all Jews killed. Matter of fact, it is reported that the Russians killed more Jews than Hitler did.

Its a Satanic factor. Satan knows that God made certain unconditional promises to Israel. Satan knows that the Jews are a small people. That if he can kill off the Jews, and there are no Jews to enter the millennium as God promised, that God is a liar. If God is a liar, his judgment is proved to be not perfect. If it is not perfect, then Satan's sentence to Hell will be dropped.

Why do you think the Bible teaches that Satan and his angels are already condemned to hell, yet are not there at this time? There is an appeal of the sentence taking place. That is why Satan is called an accusing attorney in the original languages.

The Jew is a target of Satan's. Hitler was not a normal man. He was weird. He was possessed. He used to go out into a field and talk out loud, and it is reported by eye witnesses, he acted like he was taking orders from an invisible source. He would at times get very excited as if he were hearing great news, and converse with no one there. And, he wanted all Jews wiped from the face of the earth. If there is a Devil , this man was possessed.

Where ever you find anti-Semitism, you find Satanic influence. The Islamic faith gives points for killing Jews and Christians. Allah can not be the same God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Jews are not welcome in Muslim countries. Its a spiritual reason at the root. And, its goes much deeper than most realize.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

Hmm, this thread is increasingly becoming about who's theology is more correct. I think this is unfruitful for both of us.

inquisitor_11 said:

Hmm, this thread is increasingly becoming about who's theology is more correct. I think this is unfruitful for both of us.

Click to expand...

Huh? The truth will be the correct theology. And, challenges are good for each other!


"As iron sharpens iron,
so one man sharpens another. "


Proverbs 27:17 niv

Grace and peace, GeneZ

But how do you define the "correct theology?"
Yours may not be necessarily correct, and perhaps nor is inquisitor's, so he is in some part right, as it may just go round in circles.

jhollas said:

But how do you define the "correct theology?"
Yours may not be necessarily correct, and perhaps nor is inquisitor's, so he is in some part right, as it may just go round in circles.

Click to expand...

Are you saying that there is no correct theology?

I am not saying I have correct thrology. I am saying that correct theology is truth. And, having correct theology does not mean that everyone must agree with it. Matter of fact, the majority may not when its in regards to a controversial issue. We speak truth because it is truth, not because it will be accepted. It may appear to go incircles to those not grasping what is being said. Should it stop on their behalf?

Yet, when there is a going back and forth of each one's theology, there should be an exposure to error if its there. Maybe both are wrong. But, both can not be right. If both walk away knowing that there is something wrong with their logic, then God has them a step closer to finding truth. If both are never challenged (because of the prevailing political correctness) and shown how they can not be right, then God has two camatose believers that are doing him no good as long as they remain as they are. That is why it says...

"As iron sharpens iron,
so one man sharpens another. "
Proverbs 27:17 niv

And, if one has correct theology? Should he keep it to himself? You act as if no one can have correct theology on an issue. That we all are guessing and we each pick what we want to believe. That's why we see the following passage...


"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." 2 Timothy 4:3 niv

If anyone has correct theology they will not share in the insecurity that false theology produces. And, they will not expect everyone to believe them. For they have learned (from correct theology) that we each have free will in what we believe, some choose what they want to believe. Others, accept what they must. Most (as Paul stated in 2 Timothy 4:3) will not desire to endure -put up with - sound doctrine. Sound doctrine insults pride. Sound doctrine denies wishful thinking. Sound doctrine does not make you feel like you are a good person in your natural niceness. Sound doctrine requires taking up ones cross and denying self. Sound doctrine is foundational for all true theology where ever we may find it. We give out truth not because the one we are deabting will be won over. Its so that God will show them that he was trying to provide what was needed to be made free, but refused. They will never be able to say to God, "Well, its the bad teaching my pastor gave me which was to fault, not me!"

God exposes us all to the good and the bad. We make our choices. When some choose the truth over what they might prefer in their natural inclinations, these ones leave all the rest to be without excuse before God. Not before them. It reminds me of how when I was in Bible college, how I met various students who were exposed to correct theology and chose to remove themselves from their old denominations. Yet, many were left behind who refused correction. They refused to change. These ones will leave all the denominational conformists to be without excuse. Are these ones who see the error of their old denominations to remain silent?


When asked "how can we know who's theology is correct?" Nope! That's in the Holy Spirit's hands, not the believer who does have correct theology in a given area. He may be wrong in other areas (we all are), but when its correct he is to speak and give the other a chance to see what it is. The choice is their's. And, they only answer to God for their choice, not the one with correct theology. For, the one with correct theology in a given area knows very well that he too has much to learn himself. Who is he to judge another?

Grace and peace, GeneZ

You make an excellent point Genez!
I shall retire to my spectator's stand on this debate for the time being...

To see and hear christians advocate vilonce just make me sick! Another reason why I shoud.nt become a christian. Yeah the great president (record in death penalties) (war monger) Bush is also a "born-again-christian" a testemony to the world just how sick that kind of christianity is.

I'd advise you to alter your posts very quickly Bilbo. Calling our religion sick isn't big, clever, or funny, and will probably result in a severe backlash from some of our other members.
If you have nothing to contribute to this discussion, then why post something that you know is going to stir things up?