Isn't it interesting...

[twin1954]

There is some truth to the matter:
Why Are Calvinists So Negative? | Desiring God

Admittedly, Reformed theology is difficult to assimilate. Mastering it requires a great deal of commitment to study. After we are confident about that which we hold dear, sometimes we become are our own worst enemies.

And we are victims of what we are often accused of being. Think of all the in-house debates related to the Sabbath day, the regulative principle of worship, supra vs. infra, covenantalism, and more. Rare is the person who has come to grips with all the nuances that lie at the root of our internal disagreements. Is it any wonder that the casual onlooker is often apoplectic about our views?

Men, being sinners still, will argue over the minutia of theological intricacies to be sure. But that isn't confined to the Reformed alone.

Intellectuals tend to be argumentative at any rate. Still the simple truths of the Gospel of Christ Jesus the Lord as He is revealed in the Scriptures cannot be denied by any true believer. We may disagree on many things but we cannot disagree with who Christ is and what He has done.

While some of our in-house disagreements seem vital to us we do agree on who saves a sinner and how.

I do not speak as one who is "Reformed", for I am not, but as one who is very familiar with the Reformed and count myself their brother. I, in my own conscience as a Baptist, disagree with some of the views of the Reformed in areas such as the Law, progressive sanctification and the Sabbath yet seek to encourage and love them where I can.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

What, may I ask are you seeing?

I can see the justification for some of the "hatred" that we Calvinists receive.

Calvinists, such as myself, can at times speak truth devoid of love, which one could argue is not truth at all.

Just as love without truth is unloving, truth without love is untrue in some sense.

"Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ," (Eph 4:15)

 

[twin1954]

I can see the justification for some of the "hatred" that we Calvinists receive.

Calvinists, such as myself, can at times speak truth devoid of love, which one could argue is not truth at all.

Just as love without truth is unloving, truth without love is untrue in some sense.

"Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ," (Eph 4:15)

True. On the internet especially it is difficult to convey the emotion and body language that we rely on so much to communication.

 

[JM]

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Mark 13.13

Gill explains:

And ye shall be hated of all men
Not only of your friends and relations of your countrymen the Jews; but of all men, the generality of men, in, all nations of the world, wherever they came:

for my name's sake;
for the sake of Christ and his Gospel, they professed and preached:

but he that shall endure;
reproaches, afflictions, and persecutions, patiently; or persevere in the faith of Christ, in the profession of his name, and in preaching his Gospel:

to the end;
of such troubles, and of life:

the same shall be saved;
if not with a temporal, yet with an everlasting salvation; (See Gill on Matthew 10:22), (See Gill on Matthew 24:13).

 

[jimmyjimmy]

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Mark 13.13

Gill explains:

And ye shall be hated of all men
Not only of your friends and relations of your countrymen the Jews; but of all men, the generality of men, in, all nations of the world, wherever they came:

for my name's sake;
for the sake of Christ and his Gospel, they professed and preached:

but he that shall endure;
reproaches, afflictions, and persecutions, patiently; or persevere in the faith of Christ, in the profession of his name, and in preaching his Gospel:

to the end;
of such troubles, and of life:

the same shall be saved;
if not with a temporal, yet with an everlasting salvation; (See Gill on Matthew 10:22), (See Gill on Matthew 24:13).

Yes. Christians are hated by the world; however, there are other causes. If one acts like an obnoxious idiot, then he cries persecution when people hate him, is he right to claim he's been hated for the sake of the gospel?

Our speech and attitudes should be such that the only thing we can be accused of by the world is the gospel, not our caustic tongues (if we do have such a tongue).

I'm being self-referential here, BTW. I'm not accusing anyone here of the above, but we all know Reformed folks who act in such a way as to bring on hate.

 

[JM]

Yes. Christians are hated by the world; however, there are other causes. If one acts like an obnoxious idiot, then he cries persecution when people hate him, is he right to claim he's been hated for the sake of the gospel?

Reformed Christians are hated by everyone including other "Christians" which makes us different. In particular we are hated because of our express witness to the effectual working of the atonement. Other Christians are hated for different reasons.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Reformed Christians are hated by everyone including other "Christians" which makes us different. In particular we are hated because of our express witness to the effectual working of the atonement. Other Christians are hated for different reasons.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Reformed Christians are exempt from being obnoxious? They are only ever hated and persecuted for their doctrinal purity?!

JM, get real. I'm a Calvinist. I church with these people. . .

 

[JM]

Reformed Christians are exempt from being obnoxious? They are only ever hated and persecuted for their doctrinal purity?!

JM, get real. I'm a Calvinist. I church with these people. . .

Hummm, I never posted that. Odd that's what you picked up on. But I think you are now being obnoxious proving your point that Reformed Christians are not exempt.

lol

 

[JM]

Reformed Christians are hated by everyone including other "Christians" which makes us different. In particular we are hated because of our express witness to the effectual working of the atonement. Other Christians are hated for different reasons.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Reformed Christians are hated by everyone including other "Christians" which makes us different. In particular we are hated because of our express witness to the effectual working of the atonement. Other Christians are hated for different reasons.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

You are correct. You didn't say it. You skipped over that point in my post, which is the reason for my pressing you on it.

 

[JM]

You are correct. You didn't say it. You skipped over that point in my post, which is the reason for my pressing you on it.

Anyone can be a jerk - this thread is dealing with Calvinism or Reformed theology in particular. I was addressing that.

People hate, dislike or disapprove of Reformed Christianity for five reasons;

1) Total Inability – Professing Christians dislike the idea that man lacks the spiritual ability to believe the Gospel.

2) Unconditional Election – Professing Christians dislike the idea that God alone can choose who will be saved and that salvation is not foreseen as having anything to do with the decisions of man.

3) Limited Atonement – Professing Christians dislike the idea, actually hate the idea, that Christ died with a purpose to save.

4) Irresistible Grace – Professing Christian HATE the idea that they lack the ability to resist God’s effectual call. They hate it.

5) Preservation of the Saints – Many professing Christians (Roman, Eastern, Wesleyan, etc) dislike the idea that man doesn’t keep his own salvation by his works and deeds.

Now, if you google “what is wrong with Calvinism” you will find all of the above listed as reasons why other Christians hate us.

Yours in the Lord,


jm

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Anyone can be a jerk - this thread is dealing with Calvinism or Reformed theology in particular. I was addressing that.

People hate, dislike or disapprove of Reformed Christianity for five reasons;

1) Total Inability – Professing Christians dislike the idea that man lacks the spiritual ability to believe the Gospel.

2) Unconditional Election – Professing Christians dislike the idea that God alone can choose who will be saved and that salvation is not foreseen as having anything to do with the decisions of man.

3) Limited Atonement – Professing Christians dislike the idea, actually hate the idea, that Christ died with a purpose to save.

4) Irresistible Grace – Professing Christian HATE the idea that they lack the ability to resist God’s effectual call. They hate it.

5) Preservation of the Saints – Many professing Christians (Roman, Eastern, Wesleyan, etc) dislike the idea that man doesn’t keep his own salvation by his works and deeds.

Now, if you google “what is wrong with Calvinism” you will find all of the above listed as reasons why other Christians hate us.

Yours in the Lord,


jm

6) Unwillingness to entertain other opinions.

7) Rigidity: unable to bend without breaking

8) Condesending attitudes.

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

6) Unwillingness to entertain other opinions.

7) Rigidity: unable to bend without breaking

8) Condesending attitudes.

Well, when you know you're right, you know you're right. LOL.

 

[JM]

6) Unwillingness to entertain other opinions.

7) Rigidity: unable to bend without breaking

conviction:
a firmly held belief or opinion.
"his conviction that the death was no accident"
synonyms: belief, opinion, view, thought, persuasion, idea, position, stance, article of faith
"his political convictions"

8) Condesending attitudes.

Every single one of us on any given day could be condescending to another. Squeeze a lemon - get lemon juice. What Calvinists shouldn't find shocking is that we are sinners and will remain sinful until the end of our lives and Calvinists believe this is universal - not just a Calvinist problem. This thread started with the following words, "...that there are so many people on this board who hate (and I mean hate) Reformed theology..." we should keep this in view.

Vocal Reformed Christians have a target on their backs and this will often lead to irritability due to constant attack. I've been blindsided after Sunday morning services, attacked by fellow church members who have a bone to pick with my denial of man's free will! Because I'm a "calvinist!!" I had an member from the Gospel Hall Brethren come to my place of work to correct me. I had been talking with members of the Hall and they were doubting their Brethrenism so the men of that group sent a fella to talk to me. At work. So yes, I can be rude and condescending, especially if someone attacks my Lord's death on the Cross from a position of ignorance...in a very inappropriate place. Online I'm sarcastic. No malice intended. twin will tell you have a strange sense of humour. lol

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[twin1954]

conviction:
a firmly held belief or opinion.
"his conviction that the death was no accident"
synonyms: belief, opinion, view, thought, persuasion, idea, position, stance, article of faith
"his political convictions"



Every single one of us on any given day could be condescending to another. Squeeze a lemon - get lemon juice. What Calvinists shouldn't find shocking is that we are sinners and will remain sinful until the end of our lives and Calvinists believe this is universal - not just a Calvinist problem. This thread started with the following words, "...that there are so many people on this board who hate (and I mean hate) Reformed theology..." we should keep this in view.

Vocal Reformed Christians have a target on their backs and this will often lead to irritability due to constant attack. I've been blindsided after Sunday morning services, attacked by fellow church members who have a bone to pick with my denial of man's free will! Because I'm a "calvinist!!" I had an member from the Gospel Hall Brethren come to my place of work to correct me. I had been talking with members of the Hall and they were doubting their Brethrenism so the men of that group sent a fella to talk to me. At work. So yes, I can be rude and condescending, especially if someone attacks my Lord's death on the Cross from a position of ignorance...in a very inappropriate place. Online I'm sarcastic. No malice intended. twin will tell you have a strange sense of humour. lol

Yours in the Lord,

jm

A strange sense of humor, nah, warped is a better word.

 

[JM]

Good to see you back.

 

[bsd058]

Ya. I find that those who are gracious to others (showing love, whether they are Arminian or Calvinist) are the true Christians. It's true that Arminians are in error, but at least most are inconsistent. If they were consistent, of course, they would be in heresy (openness theology, Pelagianism, etc.). But I thank God that I am a part of a church that, while professing an Arminian-style Gospel, they unwittingly behave like Calvinists in prayer and practice. And they know I'm the congregation's Calvinist and respect that.

But anyone who doesn't show the love of Christ (whether Arminian or Calvinist) is still in their sin. This is how I detect true believers even when their theology is sounder than others.

 

[OzSpen]

...that there are so many people on this board who hate (and I mean hate) Reformed theology, yet are too squeamish, when kindly invited, to open up a thread on the "Debate with a Calvinist" subforum on their grievance?

Anyone else experience that here, or is it just me? I don't think I have ever received so much vitriol as when someone on this board finds out I am Reformed.

Taylor,

I do my best not to hate anyone and especially any person promoting evangelical Reformed theology.

I love Reformed/Reformation theology as long as it includes Reformed/Classical Arminianism. In the nomenclature of today, Reformed has become too identified with Calvinistic and the Reformed Arminians have been sidelined in the discussion.

See Roger E. Olson, Is Arminianism "Reformed"?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

This may sound crazy but I don't believe everyone that professes to love Christ actually does - if they did they wouldn't hate "Calvinism" because Jesus was a Calvinist.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

jm,

It is that kind of comment, 'Jesus was a Calvinist', that is so doctrinaire that it keeps some/many people from considering Calvinism. When you make Jesus a Calvinist, you commit an appeal to authority fallacy.

Your statement that Jesus was a Calvinist is the kind of teaching that influences me in keeping away from discussion on this directory. However, I realise you are only one person. When you commit a logical fallacy in your statement, it prevents us from having a logical discussion.

How many other people in this thread support the claim that Jesus was a Calvinist?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Ya. I find that those who are gracious to others (showing love, whether they are Arminian or Calvinist) are the true Christians. It's true that Arminians are in error, but at least most are inconsistent. If they were consistent, of course, they would be in heresy (openness theology, Pelagianism, etc.). But I thank God that I am a part of a church that, while professing an Arminian-style Gospel, they unwittingly behave like Calvinists in prayer and practice. And they know I'm the congregation's Calvinist and respect that.

But anyone who doesn't show the love of Christ (whether Arminian or Calvinist) is still in their sin. This is how I detect true believers even when their theology is sounder than others.

bsd,

I agree that to show the love of Christ is compulsory for both Arminians and Calvinists.

Your statement needs challenging that 'It's true that Arminians are in error, but at least most are inconsistent. If they were consistent, of course, they would be in heresy (openness theology, Pelagianism, etc.)'. This is a straw man. Reformed Arminianism is not openness theology, Pelagianism or semi-Pelagianism. Roger E. Olson has refuted these false claims in his book, Arminian Theology: Myths and Realities (IVP 2016).

It would take me way too much time in a busy schedule to demonstrate the truth of Reformed Arminianism and the errors of openness theology, Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism. Meet a Reformed Arminian.

See the Reformed Arminian view of eternal security in the exposition by Stephen Ashby in Four Views on Eternal Security (Zondervan).

Blessings in Christ,
Oz