Isn't heaven a paradox?

[drich0150]

If you dismiss everything I say as a strawman, can you please do as I asked and provide a few quotes that back up what you are saying about heaven?

All that I have stated is that Heaven is where God lives. What exactly are you doubting in that statement? Are you looking for a verse that say Heaven is not what you think it is?

I am not as familiar as a Christian hence why I ask questions on here.

Your not asking Questions. You are creating or misrepresenting the christian position and then you issue challenges to the inconsistencies you have found in your corrupt version.

What I have learn is that God is good and going to heaven means being with God as you have said yourself. So my point is that how can only good be meaningful?

Perhaps "good" has a deeper meaning than what you understand it to mean.
For instance, the bible says Only God is Good. We know God is infinite, so in your estimation how can we limit the word "good" to your current understanding of the term?

Again if only God is Good or rather if this attribute of God can only be found in Him, then that would imply the this quality is as broad as He is. If God is infinite then so to is the word that describes Him. So now the question becomes How can Heaven be described as anything but "good?"

For example I enjoy eating chocolate as it tastes nice compared to other food. If all I ever had to eat was chocolate I would quickly tire of it and it would no longer be a treat at all.

You have answered your own question here and do not realize it.
This life is that diet of chocolate you speak of. We only know of sin and evil, and yet for some of us the thought of expanding our diet to include something new and as infinite God himself, scares us to only want to be able to eat "chocolate."

Whether you understand this to be true or not. You are right now a slave to sin. Meaning you have no choice but to sin. (Your Chocolate diet) This means that you and your current life is limited by the sins you have been sold to. It is through God that our lives find meaning and purpose. For we were created and have been tasked (in this life) to manage this world. In the next we are told their will be other jobs and responsibilities. One can only speculate but I understand that There is an infinite universe out there. and we will be given an infinite amount of time to explore and possible manage it. Something that can not be done with our current "chocolate" only diet.

If heaven is in someway a happiness that you never tire of, then what is the point of it if you are just a puppet for God's will?

We are purposed for greater things. "we/some of us" will see.

If you don't have the freedom of choice or free will to rebel and defy his will then why do we need a life of our own in the first place?

Remember Freedom of Choice is not "FreeWill" We will be given freedom of Choice. However we will have gladly surrendered our right to Sin.

 

[grasping the after wind]

is pair o dice a pair o docs?

 

[elopez]

A lot of answers refer to heaven being perpetual happiness. But how can this be the case? As happiness is only relative to its absence, ie there needs to be something better or worse for it to have any meaning. If you only knew agony, intense pain would seem good, but then you would still want to be without pain. Or then if you were without, you would want to feel pleasure, then more etc.

You say to experience happiness there absolutely needs to be something better or worse for it to mean something which seems to make sense but I think you are neglecting the fact that those in Heaven have experienced pain and suffering on earth, so how can you say there is nothing worse than the happiness of Heaven to be compared to?

So this raises a paradox as God is constantly described as being only good, pure love and happiness. So if heaven is being with God, then you can only experience good things which would make the notion worthless.

This seems to be true only if there is nothing to compare the happiness in Heaven to, or as your argument goes. Though as it has been said the pain and suffering on earth could be compared to in such a way, so this premise appears to be false.

An eternity is a long time indeed to feel one thing. If there is indeed pain and suffering in heaven to answer this paradox, then God cannot be only good can he? If he allowed pain so you could feel the good then we are just left with life on Earth again making heaven futile.

'Eternity' in relation to the after life means without end. There is no pain or suffering in Heaven, so no, that is not the answer. The answer is above.

This then raises a hugely important question of free will, if you can only ever be good then you have no free will at all.

Exactly. There is no free will in Heaven. Our free will is relevant on earth in order to experience Heaven.

Isn’t that the reason given for sinners on Earth, the freedom to choose our own path and actions? You might say that you would never want to sin in heaven as you are too happy, but eternity is a long time so I don’t think this is a realistic argument.

It's because happiness is perpetual and also being that as a result of that all desire to sin is diminished. It's a matter of not wanting to sin. If you think that is realistic or not you couldn't really say as you, nor I, have experienced happiness in such a manner that is alleged.

Even angels have the freedom to rebel against God in heaven like Satan, so it must be possible if you believe in the Bible.

Angels free will and humans free will are distinct, so while it may have been possible for Lucifer to rebel it may not be for us.

Also, heaven must be a personalised utopia for it to indeed be paradise. How can there be one shared heaven?

As I was saying Heaven is not subjective. Not if we talking about any aspect of the after life, that is in accordance with Christianity.

Your idea of heaven might be just being with God, mine might be sat fishing by a river and another could be racing super bikes.

You can think that is what Heaven consists of but if we are basing our beliefs off the Bible which what Christians do or at least should do, then there is no such description that leads one to believe while we are in Heaven we can ride bikes and fish. Either way if one does believe that, Heaven as the Bible describes is indeed being in the presence of God.

As the answers suggest, some would prefer a perfect version of Earth whilst others want to see their dead relatives.

Heaven is alluded to as the second earth in such a way that the things of this earth are temporal and do not last, so it could be said that Heaven is near analogous to the idea of a 'perfect' earth. As for relatives, if a relative(s) are saved, then for all we know we could interact with them. It's all speculation when it comes down to it though.

So how can you see a relative without your paradises converging, which would make neither paradise. You might agree with your dad’s view but there are tens of billions of potential souls to somehow make agree.

It's not just my dad and I that agree on the nature of Heaven. It is the whole of our church, and indeed the whole of our religion. Heaven is defined to the extent that it can be and is accepted as such by the majority of those who think there is life after death and believes in the Christian God. If they do not, it could also be possible they are mistaken.

So if there is indeed one version of heaven, then it is only going to be a good thing for a minority and a punishment for others. Because I certainly couldn’t stand eternity in a crowded realm of souls all worshipping God for putting them there.

That's because you don't love God that you find the idea of worshiping Him in Heaven without end as detestable. That is not surprising at all and is really no evidence or much less support for there not being perpetual happiness in Heaven.

 

[drich0150]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]If it is described as being with God, then why would it not be only good/happiness? What does the Bible say to make you think otherwise?[/FONT]

because as you have pointed out Happiness if fleeting. Joy on the other Hand is a gift from God one that He sustains. As He is eternal so to are His promises and His Gifts.(Joy)

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[FONT=&quot]That is just re-iterating what I said. The only understanding of good is by comparing it to what is not good, so if heaven is being with God then nothing cannot be good in heaven. So what is this meaningless good?[/FONT]

As I have point out. You do not seem to understand the meaning of the Word "Good.' if it is only identified by the comparison of Evil. God is "Good." Therefore Good is an infinite term describing the nature of God.


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[FONT=&quot]Happiness is meaningless unless it is shared. [/FONT]

That is why Happiness is not what we have been promised. We will be given the gift of God's joy. Happiness is fleeting. look at how the bible uses the term compared to Joy which is a gift from God:[/FONT]
BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible word or phrase in over 35 languages and 50 versions.
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[FONT=&quot]My own mother died (by the good grace of God) when I was 6, if there is indeed an afterlife I would like to see her. If I end up in heaven and realize my mother had been in hell I think that would take the edge off my happiness. But maybe I would forget in a million years or so, but if heaven is for good people then part of being good is to care for others and not focus on your own selfish happiness. So why would God encourage you not caring for tortured souls?[/FONT]

Because the bond you shared with your mother's soul is but a small fraction of what you will have for God. Your parents souls did not create yours. They had a hand in creating your body, but your soul, (who you are) was created by God. When you bend that knee, and your tongue confesses, you will feel for Him x1000 what you feel for your mother.

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[FONT=&quot]I do not actively choose to not go to heaven, I just see no reason to believe it is there. Christians can’t even describe it and say ‘we do not know’. If a good god sees me being skeptical as a reason to torture me then so be it. But if I was in heaven somehow, I wouldn’t rest easy knowing people I once loved are in pain for not having faith in the unknowable.[/FONT]

When you were 3 did you know what you will want on 12/12/12? Do you know now? Then how can you possibly say that you could ever hope to know what you would want in the face of God and eternity?

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[FONT=&quot]You often make these disturbing comments. [/FONT]

why are they disturbing to you? I am only removing the "window dressing" you have placed over your decision to separate yourself from God. Would you rather hear these things now when you can do something about the choices you are making? or would you rather hear them on the day of your judgment for the first time?[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]So firstly, Hitler is not a tyrant for the genocide of millions as long as he wants to go to heaven and has faith? [/FONT]

How can one have "faith" if one is responsible for the genocide of Millions? Do you think God a fool, or is it possible you do not understand that term?[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]But I am a tyrant because I say ‘I don’t know’ to the unknowable?[/FONT]

I never call you a tyrant. I said God would be a Tyrant if He forced you into Heaven against your will. You said you could not worship a God who would let your love ones burn in Hell. You said you could not imagine being made to worship God day in and day out... What if this was an accurate representation of Heaven? Would you still want to Go?[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]What if the description of Heaven and Hell were some how reversed and Heaven was a fiery pit (but God lived there) and Hell was what we know to be paradise, would you still want to goto Heaven (The fiery pit) just to be with God?[/FONT]

Heaven is not about the "stuff" it contains, but the location of your God. Hell has little to do with fire and brimstone, but the absences of your God.
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[FONT=&quot] God doesn’t give you the free will to leave heaven once you are there, so he does force you to be there. Or perhaps the Bible says you can leave? Quote the scripture if it is there please.[/FONT]

There will indeed be a honeymoon stage for all of the saved. for 1000 years we will live with God and after the 1000 year reign Satan will be set loose again to further winnow away the chaff.
Revelations 20 (the Whole Chapter speaks about this.)

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[FONT=&quot]Yes but by the definition of only good, and the free will we have to make our own opinions of what is good then it must be tailored. [/FONT]

Ah, no. You do not understand the terms in which you use, therefore your conclusion is also incorrect.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]I think animals are good, you advocate wiping out all predators and dominating nature into submission. I disagree with your idea of good at almost every turn, I wouldn’t like to be anywhere near your idea of heaven.[/FONT]

My "idea" of heaven will not have any influence on the City of the Almighty God. Heaven is His Home not mine. The foundations of which have been laid long before August of 1975

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[FONT=&quot]You missed the point. Just look at cultural differences for an example, many views are incompatible. A Muslim heaven is sexist, I do not like that. Would a Muslim be happy in your heaven?[/FONT]

If my understanding of it is correct then "they" will not have that option.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]Ummm, why not just create everyone in heaven?[/FONT]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He did that once, and as you pointed out not everyone wanted to be there.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] No-one would actively choose torture.[/FONT]

Apparently 1/3 of the former residences did.

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[FONT=&quot] People who don’t believe in your God arena’t deciding what they want, [/FONT]

Indeed they are.. your next sentence describes what they choose instead of God.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]your God just as just hidden himself very well to logical/rational reasoning. [/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot]"Logic, rational, reasoning" are terms that describe self worship. For those who want to worship themselves, that option is indeed on the table.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]He did such a good job that he even put decoy evidence contradicting the Bible (like creation, talking snakes) to the point where now even most Christians try to say it is meant to be metaphor. Why indeed did he plant fossils and evidence for the Earth being billions of years old, DNA/anatomical evidence…[/FONT]

Why didn't He create Adam and Eve as babies? -or- [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Who's to say He planted anything? We do not know how much time elapses between Genesis chapter 2 and Chapter 3 could be a day, a Year, 100 years, or 10 billion years. We do know, that there was enough time for Lucifer to rebel and to be cast out.[/FONT]

If you think about it Lucifer (And the rest of Heaven) was created somewhere in Chapter one. Which means there must have been some time between chapter one (The end of Creation's 7 days) and Chapter 3 (The fall of Man.) Because else where in the bible Lucifer's role in Heaven is described in better detail. Basically He was God's goto angel. He was the number 2 of all of the universe, and yet he somehow found discontentment. Generally speaking this is not what happens after a few days on the job. I would have imagined this took 1000's on top of 1000's of years. All the while (outside the Garden) evolution or God's version of it, could have taken place leaving your "evidence" serving two purposes.
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[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]why indeed if he wanted us to choose heaven.[/FONT]

Again Choice. In order for their to be Choice we must have viable options to choose from. Not everyone is content with self worship. Some need to have the structure of a deity but the power to control it.. Enter science. Science is absolute so long as it does not conflict with how it worshipers want to live their lives. Then unlike God, it can be changed.
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[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]So why arena’t we given free will in heaven?[/FONT]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Because in this life we elect God's will and that is not to Sin in the next.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Well that just changes the focus of the question slightly, why do we need a drop in the ocean being free to make choices then eternity where we have no choice but to be good?[/FONT]

Because not everyone wants to be good for eternity. So we have been removed from the glory of God (as to not be influenced) so that our hearts are free to choose beyond any doubt. So when you are given your eternal assignment you will not doubt that where you end up is what you truly want.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]Can you please provide quotes of this ‘great detail’?[/FONT]

Revelations. Start around Chapter 19 and then go forward.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot] As other Christians have said heaven is mentioned few times with no description other than being ‘with God’. [/FONT]

The city is mapped out and described. But as many have pointed out the "city" is of little consequence next to being "with God."[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]Also that hell is mentioned far more frequently and is described in much more detail, what would the motivation for this be?[/FONT]

Carrot and the stick. "Sheep" respond to the stick far more readily than the carrot.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot] Why does God want you to know exactly what you have to lose for not submitting your life to his rulebook,[/FONT]

Apparently you do not understand the most foundational principle in all of Christianity... (there is no rule book that can get you into Heaven)[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot] but not describe the place what you profess he really wants us to end up[/FONT]

Because those who read His book looking for answers often time will only understand the stick. When you are ready for the carrot He will give it to you Himself.
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[razeontherock]

If you don't have the freedom of choice or free will to rebel and defy his will

Big little word, if. This scenario does NOT describe the next life

 

[pinkputter]

I can't understand the concept of heaven without it contradicting itself.

1. How can you have only happiness? There is no such thing as good if there is no evil, so you would spend eternity in one state with nothing to compare it to, or even a memory of pain or sadness as this wouldn't be perfection.

One can be completely filled with happiness because sadness is just the deficiency of happiness. We will all be made perfect in heaven and not be lacking in anything because we have been made perfect in Christ Jesus

2. How can you be perfectly content if your loved ones burn in hell? How can you rest easily for eternity knowing countless billions are being tortured, effectively by your parent? I wouldn't stand having Hitler as a Dad, even if he was only loving towards me.

Because we realize that anothers salvation is not our responsibility. We are rewarded for the GOOD we do, by showing Jesus in our lives as our example, but we do not have guilt for another person's destiny, because that is between them and God alone.

You say how can we be content knowing they are being tortured?
God answers us and says we will be made a NEW creation. I don't think hell will exist to those living in Heaven.

3. How can you be with relatives in heaven? Surely their idea of heaven would be different to yours, so you cannot share a common ground without it being less than perfect. One mans heaven could be anothers hell.

Interesting you bring this up. I've thought about this too. Mainly that there are some Christians who I don't see eye to eye with and I've thought to myself, hmmm, don't think I would want to see them in Heaven!lol

But as I mentioned, we will be made NEW. God says we will become new creatures. I don't think we will have infirmities or insecurities like we did on this earth. So I think any negativity we may have had with another Christian will dissipate.

Now, a concept of Heaven is different. But think about it. Most people like music. People, in general, tend to like the same things and have a common bond, which imo is from Jesus Himself. We were made in His image, so I think we will find pleasure in generally the same things, once we are in Heaven. Also, Jesus said, my Home has many rooms in it. I take Him at His word here. Meaning, this could mean if somebody's listening to Celine Dion(which I think they will in HEAVEN! ) and some one else prefers Coldplay, they could go in another room and listen to that. Does that make any sense to you?

I will leave it there for now. If the reply is that you will outgrow the needs you have on Earth, like friends and family then what was the purpose of a human life? What is the need for sin on Earth if there is no sin where you will spend eternity? What is the point in spending a drop in the ocean in one state, which is insignicant to the other?

None of it makes any sense to me at all, no wonder it was never described in the Bible because I can't see how it doesn't contradict. As I expect everyones view of heaven is different, which raises point 3.

Thanks

 

[Curious Atheist]

[FONT=&quot]All that I have stated is that Heaven is where God lives. What exactly are you doubting in that statement? Are you looking for a verse that say Heaven is not what you think it is?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Yes, so if heaven is being with God then there cannot be evil or sadness there. God is constantly described as being perfect, literally only ‘good’ without sin, evil or bad. You seem to disagree that heaven is described as being free from pain or sadness, so please prove it. Either God isn’t 100% good or heaven is not 100% with God, it has to be one or the other as they contradict.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Perhaps "good" has a deeper meaning than what you understand it to mean.
For instance, the bible says Only God is Good. We know God is infinite, so in your estimation how can we limit the word "good" to your current understanding of the term?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Well if he is infinitely good, more good than can be imagined doesn’t that just make the chances of any sadness when you are with him even less, backing up my point? What deeper meaning to you read in to the description of God that allows for sadness?

For example I enjoy eating chocolate as it tastes nice compared to other food. If all I ever had to eat was chocolate I would quickly tire of it and it would no longer be a treat at all.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You have answered your own question here and do not realize it.
This life is that diet of chocolate you speak of. We only know of sin and evil, and yet for some of us the thought of expanding our diet to include something new and as infinite God himself, scares us to only want to be able to eat "chocolate."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I do not know of only sin and evil. What I was saying is that there is no concept of light without the dark, no good without evil and no happiness without sadness. No joy without pain, no love without hate etc etc. Things lose their meaning without having a comparison. Love would not be special if you loved everything/everyone you ever saw or came across, it would lose all meaning as an emotion. You would need to love someone more than others to have any sense of the word.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Whether you understand this to be true or not. You are right now a slave to sin. Meaning you have no choice but to sin. (Your Chocolate diet) This means that you and your current life is limited by the sins you have been sold to. It is through God that our lives find meaning and purpose. For we were created and have been tasked (in this life) to manage this world. In the next we are told their will be other jobs and responsibilities. One can only speculate but I understand that There is an infinite universe out there. and we will be given an infinite amount of time to explore and possible manage it. Something that can not be done with our current "chocolate" only diet.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]So I can only sin unless I go to heaven? What are you talking about, the Bible states what is considered sin and existing and being a good person isn’t one of them. My chocolate metaphor didn’t imply that being sinful was a treat the way you are using it, I just meant that too much of a good thing makes anything tiresome.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We are purposed for greater things. "we/some of us" will see.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ahhh I see, you and your special team of super-faithful fascists, destined to look down on and yell sinner to all who do not believe you. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Remember Freedom of Choice is not "FreeWill" We will be given freedom of Choice. However we will have gladly surrendered our right to Sin.[/FONT]

Well heaven wasn’t good enough for Angels, I doubt a mere mortal would be any different. The Bible states that you can surrender your right to not sin, as without knowing what sin is there is no such thing as good!

 

[pinkputter]

Well heaven wasn’t good enough for Angels, I doubt a mere mortal would be any different.

Who is this post in response to?

Anyway, so Heavens not good enough for you???

You prefer the alternative?

 

[Hakan101]

Again, you're forgetting that these worldly pleasures are all passing. They do not fulfill. God does. So eternal life with God will not pass, and will fulfill.

And God originally created Adam and Eve without knowledge of good or evil. It wasn't their place to know, their place was to obey God. So we learn that anything against God's will is evil, because in the beginning all that God created was deemed good.

 

[ChristianT]

another way to look at it is that there is no opposites. Evil is not the opposite of good, contrary to popular belief.

Evil is the lack of good, just, etc. So, when G-d said in the beginning when he was making the universe, that it was good, he wasn't saying that is wasn't evil, he was saying that it was made with and for good purposes. Evil just came along later because a being lacked goodness and was known to be "evil," the devil lacked goodness and rebelled against G-d and showed that he was lacking goodness. Therefore, we can conclude that it is not evil that says what is good, but good that says what is evil.

not-so Condensed Summary:
Goodness shows what a lack of goodness is. A lack of goodness doesn't show what goodness is. If you saw a can of fruit on one square, and an empty can on another, does one square say what the other square contains? Or does the first square have what is essential for life? So then how can a lack of something show what something is? And why don't we focus on living in that something? (that something is goodness)

 

[bling]

If you were surrounded by good things all of the time and could only be good and managed to get everything that made you happy - then wouldn't it be quite a boring place to be?

I can only liken the idea to being on a really long summer holiday. You get everything you want and have a really great time but then after a while it starts to become repetitive and boring and you want to have different feelings and experiences. Also you hear stories of rich people getting everything they want - friends, material goods, adoration, but then a lot of them always end up rebelling against that because they want something more or they feel something is missing in their life.

I can imagine the answer to that would be something along the lines of 'well, you will never feel like anything is missing in heaven because it is paradise', but personally I really agree with the phrase 'you don't know what you've got till its gone' - if you have everything in goodness and love, then you will have to remind yourself of sin and evil half the time to make you realise how good you have it in heaven! If you believe what the Bible says - eternity is a long time and i'm sure if you were in heaven you would quickly forget why 'sinning' is bad and why you would not want to do it

]It is not that it is “impossible” for us to sin, but we will not sin in heaven.

Rich people that have “all” their carnal pleasures satisfied would have a huge vacuum in their lives.

Godly type Love is not one big vacation, it is serving other Love. In heaven there will be those that never had the opportunity to obtain Godly type Love and will only have a wonderful child to wonderful parent type love, so I would imagine those with Godly type Love would protect and preserve those without Godly type Love for eternity.

]Right now in our universe “the more you know the more you realize you do not know”, but in heaven we will really know, so that is a lot to know and could take eternity to digest.
As far as “forgetting about sin” that may not be possible since “Christ’s blood is on the God’s throne dripping for eternity. That blood is my responsibility, so yes, I will remember what I did and will be reminded of God’s/Jesus’ Love for me. I will look upon it with mixed emotions.

 

[bling]

A lot of answers refer to heaven being perpetual happiness. But how can this be the case? As happiness is only relative to its absence, ie there needs to be something better or worse for it to have any meaning. If you only knew agony, intense pain would seem good, but then you would still want to be without pain. Or then if you were without, you would want to feel pleasure, then more etc.

So this raises a paradox as God is constantly described as being only good, pure love and happiness. So if heaven is being with God, then you can only experience good things which would make the notion worthless. An eternity is a long time indeed to feel one thing. If there is indeed pain and suffering in heaven to answer this paradox, then God cannot be only good can he? If he allowed pain so you could feel the good then we are just left with life on Earth again making heaven futile.

This then raises a hugely important question of free will, if you can only ever be good then you have no free will at all. Isn’t that the reason given for sinners on Earth, the freedom to choose our own path and actions? You might say that you would never want to sin in heaven as you are too happy, but eternity is a long time so I don’t think this is a realistic argument. Even angels have the freedom to rebel against God in heaven like Satan, so it must be possible if you believe in the Bible.

Also, heaven must be a personalised utopia for it to indeed be paradise. How can there be one shared heaven? Your idea of heaven might be just being with God, mine might be sat fishing by a river and another could be racing super bikes. As the answers suggest, some would prefer a perfect version of Earth whilst others want to see their dead relatives. So how can you see a relative without your paradises converging, which would make neither paradise. You might agree with your dad’s view but there are tens of billions of potential souls to somehow make agree. So if there is indeed one version of heaven, then it is only going to be a good thing for a minority and a punishment for others. Because I certainly couldn’t stand eternity in a crowded realm of souls all worshipping God for putting them there.

First I addressed your earlier questions with no comment so does that mean you agree with:

1. We do not have to have bad around us all the time to know what good is. That is part of the reason we do spend time on Earth, to know we do not want to sin again.
2. First off the Bible does not teach sinners have an eternal life anywhere. Hell will destroy over time everything. What you have to realize is: “the people that do not want Godly type Love (unselfish type Love) but want only carnal type love, would not be happy in heaven, because it is one huge Love Feast.” Earth will not last forever, so there is no other place for them to go, leaving only annihilation.
3. All mature adult humans that have accepted Godly type Love in the form of accepting God’s forgiveness will Love much since “…he that is forgiven much loves much…” so we all have some Godly type love.

Sin on earth is not the problem and helps the non believer be burden to the point of seeking a benevolent Creator’s help (Charity) in the form of forgiveness.

To address you new questions:

Yes, you still have free will in heaven, so you can still Love with Godly type Love. The reason we “sin” on earth is because sin has purpose, we are human and sin should help us fulfill our earthly objective. After fulfilling our earthly objective we do not need to sin, so there is no need to sin in heaven. The reason we do not “sin” in heaven (still having free will) is: 1. We have already experienced the pain of sinning, 2. We will always see the blood of Christ on the throne of God that I caused by our sins, 3. We will not only have an invisible Deity dwelling within us, but will have the visible Deity at our side, 4. We will not have carnal sexual bodies (no reason to be competitive), 5. We will not have the tree of knowledge to tempt us (everything is available to us) and 6. We will have experienced satan on earth and satan will not be in heaven.

You are right to think: “Not everyone wants a huge Love feast with only Godly type Love.”

That is why they will not be in heaven.

 

[drich0150]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Yes, so if heaven is being with God then there cannot be evil or sadness there. God is constantly described as being perfect, literally only ‘good’ without sin, evil or bad. You seem to disagree that heaven is described as being free from pain or sadness, so please prove it.[/FONT]

You Misunderstand. I am only pointing out your misuse of the word "Happiness" to describe the eternal Joy that being with God will bring.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]Either God isn’t 100% good or heaven is not 100% with God, it has to be one or the other as they contradict.[/FONT]

The only "contradiction" that can be pointed out is that "happiness" is insufficient term to describe the Joy we have been promised.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]Well if he is infinitely good, more good than can be imagined doesn’t that just make the chances of any sadness when you are with him even less, backing up my point? What deeper meaning to you read in to the description of God that allows for sadness?[/FONT]

Again I have only ever pointed out you misusage of the Term you used to describe the Joy we have been promised.
That is why it seems that I have backed your point to a certain extent.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]I do not know of only sin and evil.[/FONT]

So you are saying you can live a life completely without sin or Evil?[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]What I was saying is that there is no concept of light without the dark, no good without evil and no happiness without sadness.[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] No joy without pain, no love without hate etc etc. [/FONT]

..That you can comprehend.

[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]Things lose their meaning without having a comparison.[/FONT]

That is why Happiness is not a sufficient description of the Joy we will have in Heaven. Again, Happiness is dependent on circumstance to maintain the emotion. Joy is a gift given by God and sustained by Him. (This is why I gave you a link to a keyword search and asked you to look up those two words. Which apparently you did not do..) You argument completely depends on your understanding of Happiness, but does not take into account of the meaning of God's gift of Joy.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot] Love would not be special if you loved everything/everyone you ever saw or came across, it would lose all meaning as an emotion.[/FONT]

Love is not an emotion. Love is a choice with an emotional element. The Element in of itself is not love, it is only apart of the greater whole. When you have a child addicted to drugs the emotions you have, do not reflect the "love" one has to have to endure what is to come, to see your loved one through that kind of ordeal. The emotions of love is just a shadow of what Love truly is. If you only know of the emotions of love, you will never understand the Love God has already shown you. Ask God to help you develop and understand what Love is. This gift will change your life forever. (literally)[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]You would need to love someone more than others to have any sense of the word.[/FONT]

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]So I can only sin unless I go to heaven? [/FONT]

Yes. Read Mathew 5. Christ elevates the definition of sin to include thought. Now no one can live a sin free life. This means that righteousness must be obtained outside trying to adhere to the Law.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]What are you talking about, the Bible states what is considered sin and existing and being a good person isn’t one of them.[/FONT]

There are none Good no not one. Only God is Good. That means it is not possible to simply "exist as a good person." All have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]My chocolate metaphor didn’t imply that being sinful was a treat the way you are using it, I just meant that too much of a good thing makes anything tiresome.[/FONT]

[/FONT]
I know what you meant I simply modified your 'story' and it's meaning to reflect the truth found in the bible.

[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]Ahhh I see, you and your special team of super-faithful fascists, destined to look down on and yell sinner to all who do not believe you. [/FONT]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Or a simple beggar who has found what he is looking for, trying to lead another to the same source.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

Well heaven wasn’t good enough for Angels, I doubt a mere mortal would be any different.

Are you being facetious or foolish? As i pointed out 2/3 of the angels found Heaven to indeed Be Heaven. At the same time you are right Not everyone wants to be with God. You apparently wish to be known as one who will not find contentment with Him. Just know this wish will ring in your ears as you pass From the presents of God. Whether you revel in your words or curse them you will know in your heart these words are indeed your own, and your fate is of your own choosing. God is only holding to your hearts most sincere desire.

The Bible states that you can surrender your right to not sin, as without knowing what sin is there is no such thing as good!

Book Chapter and Verse?

 

[Everlasting33]

It's quite amazing but disturbing to witness so many Christians non emotional responses about their loved ones burning in hell for eternity. My theory is that most cut this fear off in order to protect themselves. If they truly felt the pain of losing a loved one, they may risk questioning God.

Since God is assumed Supreme and Sovereign, the suffering of millions need not be quite a concern. It is like "I am safe and that is what matters." Such a discompassionate way to live one's life.

 

[razeontherock]

If they truly felt the pain of losing a loved one, they may risk questioning God.

It is not G-d who needs to be questioned, but unbelieving loved ones.

 

[pinkputter]

It is not G-d who needs to be questioned, but unbelieving loved ones.

Niice!

so true.


SB,

If there were a way we could FORCE our loved ones to knowing God, in order that they may be saved, we would! But unfortunately, they have to make that personal choice for themself.

 

[GrayAngel]

I'd feel bad for anyone going to Hell, but I'm not going to throw myself in Hell to be with them.

 

[Everlasting33]

It is not G-d who needs to be questioned, but unbelieving loved ones.

Christians must defend God at all costs, even if it means losing the care and compassion for loved ones burning in hell.

Just scary...:o

 

[pinkputter]

Christians must defend God at all costs, even if it means losing the care and compassion for loved ones burning in hell.

Just scary...:o

Did you read what I wrote?

Pretty much all Christians I know would literally force their loved ones to believe in God, so they would go to Heaven, if we could

But that's part of serving God who would prefer True Love from His creation, rather than a bunch of robots who are obligated.

 

[drich0150]

It's quite amazing but disturbing to witness so many Christians non emotional responses about their loved ones burning in hell for eternity. My theory is that most cut this fear off in order to protect themselves. If they truly felt the pain of losing a loved one, they may risk questioning God.

How do you know I haven't asked these questions? How do you know these (My posts) were not the responses I got to my questions? Do you believe that you have the one and only complete understanding of an infinite God? Then why do you attack from a position of personal righteousness, rather than ask acouple of simple questions?

You must accept not everyone wants to be with God for eternity, even though no one wants to goto Hell. What does righteousness demand for one who was given the choice, and chose separation rather than eternal union with God?
If the Choice did indeed belong to them, then what does it matter who makes the decision? If you love these people, then learn to love and respect who they are and not who you wish them to be.

My father chooses to be separated from God along with his mistress of 20 years. My Mother Chooses God over Buddha, One Sister Chooses belief and faith in science, while another has found God again. I love them all dearly and would give my life for them at a moments notice. That said, this does not mean I hate or need to Question God because they do not know, or want to know Him as I do.

They were given a choice as i was. I love them enough to respect who they are and what they have decided to do with their eternity. God has provided them with the same opportunity as He has provided me. This is all I could ask from Him. The decision is theirs to make, that means their eternal fate lies in their own ability to choose what they want for themselves. If anyone needs to be questioned, it is the one making the decision, not the One providing it.

Since God is assumed Supreme and Sovereign, the suffering of millions need not be quite a concern. It is like "I am safe and that is what matters." Such a dis compassionate way to live one's life.

Or perhaps if one cared to look deeper into this topic than the knee jerk response, they could find more than just an opportunity to attack a brother's emotional connectivity to those God has put in his life.

so may I ask, what causes one to attack, and question another's emotional ties to his family? this is not a doctrinal issue nor a biblically backed response. What is left?

May i respectfully suggest that the next time you do not understand a precept or do not understand how one can worship God in a way foreign to your understanding of Him, that you simply ask a question rather than question My relationships with my Family, or my relationship with God.