Islam

[MichaelNZ]

Yesterday I talked to some of the Muslims at their stand outside the cafeteria. I asked them many questions about Islam. I told them how Allah was a pagan moon god, and then asked them why the crescent moon was everywhere in Islam. They didn't really know. I asked them about the necessity of four witnesses to prove rape - they said that in the modern world it can be proved by DNA. According to them, Muhammad did indeed marry Aisha when she was 9, and consummated the marriage, but they said that it was a common custom at that time and that Jews and Christians did it too. Is this true?

I told them that I had talked to Coptic Christians from Egypt, and they said that being Christian in Egypt is different from in New Zealand - there is the danger of being forcibly converted to Islam. The Muslims denied that, and said that there are 20 million Coptic Christians in Egypt, and they peacefully co-exist with the Muslims. This doesn't sound right.

They also told me "Don't judge Islam from Muslims". What they meant is that not all people who claim to be Muslim are following the true Islam. Just because Muslims do bad things, according to them, doesn't mean that Islam is bad.

Last night, my girlfriend and I went to a seminar about New Zealand converts to Islam. There were two videos of NZ women who had converted to Islam, and two men spoke about their conversions. Then there were questions, and one of the people answering the questions was our friend Melissa, who had introduced me to my girlfriend. That is the main reason we went. I'd been reading the literature I got from the Muslims with the intent of seeing just how wrong the Muslims were.

However, I feel like I'm being pulled to become Muslim. I know that it's the Devil pulling me, and I am trying my hardest to resist. Many of the externals of Islam seem nice to me - the beautiful mosques, the prayer, the chanting of the Qur'an, the adhan (call to prayer), etc. When I was in Malaysia, I was contemplating becoming Muslim, because Malaysia is a Muslim country, and many things there are set up for Islam. There are huge, beautiful mosques, public buildings - stations, malls, etc - have surau (prayer rooms), the adhan is broadcast from the mosques, and also over the radio and on the TV.

Please pray for me that I do not deny Christ, as did Judas, and become Muslim.

 

[Tsarina]

I'm praying for you!

Islam is deceiving, it appears to be nice but its cold! Okay, so they Muslim guys told you not to judge Islam based on Muslims.. so go ahead and see what Islam is about. Read the Quraan, see for yourself how it calls for beheading of innocent women and children, read for yourself how Christians are horrible people and need to be stoned.. read all this so called "Islamic beauty" for yourself. Then tell me, how this is all attractive!

I converted from Islam. I learned that many many people feel drawn to it, but they truly don't know what it is about. Just know, that the behavior of Muslims reflects their religion and that what each Muslim tells you will be different from the next Muslim person because the Quraan is interpreted by each Muslim individually. They didn't have Holy Fathers like the Orthodox Faith where everything is made clear.

May God bless you and preserve you in the Faith.
Praying for you.

 

[buzuxi02]

Most of the ornate mosques were built by the Orthodox except for the ones in mecca and medina. The third holiest muslim shrine of the dome rock on the temple mount being one example.
This is why many mosques have domes like Orthodox churches. The dome was an architectural invention of the byzantine empire. Mosaics were perfected in the roman empire.

The geometric mosaic designs found in mosques were once again a product of Orthodox artisans. We all know of the meanthros design (aka: byzantine bracelet design or meander basically the greek version of the 'ying and yang')

Jesus Christ is the messiah of the world, prophecied. These prophecies are found in every holy book not just the OT.

The claim "do not judge islam by muslims" goes against The Lord Jesus teaching "you will know them by their fruits"

 

[DarkNLovely]

Yesterday I talked to some of the Muslims at their stand outside the cafeteria. I asked them many questions about Islam. I told them how Allah was a pagan moon god, and then asked them why the crescent moon was everywhere in Islam. They didn't really know. I asked them about the necessity of four witnesses to prove rape - they said that in the modern world it can be proved by DNA. According to them, Muhammad did indeed marry Aisha when she was 9, and consummated the marriage, but they said that it was a common custom at that time and that Jews and Christians did it too. Is this true?

I told them that I had talked to Coptic Christians from Egypt, and they said that being Christian in Egypt is different from in New Zealand - there is the danger of being forcibly converted to Islam. The Muslims denied that, and said that there are 20 million Coptic Christians in Egypt, and they peacefully co-exist with the Muslims. This doesn't sound right.

They also told me "Don't judge Islam from Muslims". What they meant is that not all people who claim to be Muslim are following the true Islam. Just because Muslims do bad things, according to them, doesn't mean that Islam is bad.

Last night, my girlfriend and I went to a seminar about New Zealand converts to Islam. There were two videos of NZ women who had converted to Islam, and two men spoke about their conversions. Then there were questions, and one of the people answering the questions was our friend Melissa, who had introduced me to my girlfriend. That is the main reason we went. I'd been reading the literature I got from the Muslims with the intent of seeing just how wrong the Muslims were.

However, I feel like I'm being pulled to become Muslim. I know that it's the Devil pulling me, and I am trying my hardest to resist. Many of the externals of Islam seem nice to me - the beautiful mosques, the prayer, the chanting of the Qur'an, the adhan (call to prayer), etc. When I was in Malaysia, I was contemplating becoming Muslim, because Malaysia is a Muslim country, and many things there are set up for Islam. There are huge, beautiful mosques, public buildings - stations, malls, etc - have surau (prayer rooms), the adhan is broadcast from the mosques, and also over the radio and on the TV.

Please pray for me that I do not deny Christ, as did Judas, and become Muslim.

I heard there were only 7 million Copts in Egypt, but I could be wrong. I'll check for ya! You're In my prayers! As far a mosques, EO Churches are much prettier. I love Islamic archetecture myself! Nothing wrong with that. Are you sure that you are drawn to Islam, or are you drawn to their "religion"? You understand? Do you believe it is the truth or do you like the way they do things, go about their daily lives, their culture, etc.? That's very different from wanting to become a Muslim! I'll be honest, I don't know any Muslim's personally anymore, but they tend to be quite duplicitous in terms of their religion! They put on a strong front to win converts but they are not as "holy" as they want you to believe. Just remember that this is the religion that allows child marriages, honor killings, denies Christ as savior, and has a Holy book that was written about 20 years after their prophet died by those who were not his comtemporaries! My point? Stop right now, and quote word for word and in the proper context, the last conversation you had 20 minutes ago! ...............................Right! Muslims are not bad people, but believe me, they put up a good facade to make their religion attractive. They are people just like you and me! No better! I know beyond the shadow of any doubt that Jesus was the fulfilment of the law; not Mohammed! Also remember that Allah and Yaweh are not the same! That being said, I'm a little worried that you went up to them to see how wrong they are or to confront them in that way. Please don't be offended, but that shows that you are insecure in your faith and may be struggling, so it's no wonder this a ppeals to you! Ask your self, if it was Hinduism, Buddism, or Esoteric Christianity, would that have a ppealed to? Or is it truly Islam? Regardless you are in my prayers!

 

[minasoliman]

If you go to the Louvre in France and take a look at the ancient Coptic section, you find a lot of artifacts that were part of Church architecture before Islam took over. I can tell you with certainty that a lot of their decorations were adopted from ancient Coptic architecture and design.

In addition, while your friend may tell you not to judge Islam over a few Muslims, a reading of the aHadith and the Quran can really see the true Islam as Tsarina paints it for you.

And don't be quick to judge the beauty of a religion by its arts. I agree that they have beautiful art, chanting, poetry, etc. But that doesn't mean I should join Michaelangelo's religion.

If you must question something, take it on the basis of faith, not on beauty. Even Satan can look beautiful.

God bless.

 

[Orthosdoxa]

Even Satan can look beautiful.

Truest point of the thread.

Be very, very careful. You're not even Orthodox yet (right???) Orthodoxy is like Grandma's attic -you'll never finish learning it, there's always more. Perhaps you should focus on that and not a made up cult that co-opted much of Orthodox praxis but made a man with many wives, who ordered the deaths of many men, a more sacred figure than Jesus Christ.

 

[repentant]

I think the only post you need to listen to is Tsarinas...

Islam is evil, and the terrorists are practicing true Islam, not the "peace loving" ones..not to mention the "peace loving" ones would chop your head off as well if they had the chance..

Makes you wonder why the "peaceful" Muslims here in the US, and abroad do not condemn the violence..oh here is the reason..26% of AMERICAN MUSLIMS under 30 support suicide bombings...and that is only the ones who were honest...

 

[E.C.]

If your left hand causes you to sin, cut it off.

May sound extreme, but the idea is: if something causes you to disbelieve, than avoid it.

Tsarina has the best post so far.

 

[BuriedtoBloom]

Hello, Michael!

I am new to the forums - in fact I haven't even introduced myself yet - but I'm moved by your initial post to offer some thoughts on the questions currently besetting your faith...

The elemental truth of every religion is found not solely in the examination of its liturgical habits or its stringent attention to devotional detail, but in studying the god who demands our service and love in that religion.

Consider Allah. If we put aside for a moment the mosques that welcome his worshippers and any attractive language in their creeds, and study instead the revealed character of their god, we might come to this definition of Allah: The Almighty, Loveless, Impersonal Hermit of the Non-Existent Universe.

One difficulty that arises with this definition is that it employs the word "hermit" to refer to Allah in his perfect, complete, and unchanging state. That is to say, if the eternal nature of Allah is one of self-existence without reference to any other person - if Allah is in simple essence a "hermit" and by himself the summary definition of God - then the word "hermit" itself is meaningless. Hermitage can only exist when one is separated from the presence of many. For Allah to be "alone" requires also the reality of "not alone", which for him is quite impossible: he, alone, is reality.

Putting that aside for the moment, if Allah was alone before the creation of angels, of men, of subatomic particles; and if he is always and ever alone by virtue of his very essence, then that state of loneliness and self-love is, in fact, the ideal to which we should strive. Shouldn't we desire to imitate our god and master?

I mentioned self-love, and that might be questioned, but what or who else is there to love in that state of self-existent, self-fulfilling completeness? I would call it selfish, but if that is the reality of god than my moral logic must be inadequate and faulty.

One might say that Allah did require an object for his great love, a vessel to receive the outpouring of his eternal benevolence. This would leave us with a puzzling quandary: if god needs his creation in order to express his nature and complete the image of his personal being, then isn't the creation itself equally deified? In its very conception it also conceives and sustains its creator, fulfilling his great need in a moment of frustrated omnipotence. He exercised no freedom of will in his act of creation: sheer, deterministic necessity drove him to it. And yet if his existence as god is disqualified without his creation, how could he even be said to exist apart from it?

Perhaps another scenario. I begin by stating that god is not love; or if he is, self-love is entirely sufficient. Though "love" is a relational expression that cannot be conceived of apart from one person giving and another receiving, I will just say that self-love is "the intention of one person to exist in harmony with himself without the existence of any other person." Suppose further that Allah does perfectly accomplish that goal, and the entirety of perfected being is found in himself, by himself. This leaves creation incidental, unnecessary, and - further still - impossible. If all things proceed from, and are part of, one "self", then all things are really just one thing. From sameness springs sameness, and nothing is the slightest bit distinct. If a man lived his whole life in a large white box with a mirror on one wall, he would only know the human face and form by his own reflection; he would not conceive of anything apart from self.

If we examined the universe beneath a microscope, what truth would be contained in the "DNA" of reality? How would the image of the eternal hermit be expressed in the mirror of creation? Certainly not in love, friendship, charity, and sacrifice, nor in hatred, greed, vice, and treachery; for all of these demonstrate a distinction between harmony and disharmony, between cooperation and contradiction. Before a relationship can exist- whether it is between a proton and electron or between Creator and creature - there must first be a distinction in diversity and a reconciliation in unity. This relationship must find its source in the relationship of God to Himself.

But if our god is Allah and all things flow from the simplicity of his oneness, why do the categories of different and same co-exist? And why do we live and act at all times with a rationale that is justified by the union of diversity? "This, not that; that, taken together with this." You could say that a display case of ice cream flavors is a paradox. And it is.

One ice cream, many flavors. If it doesn't seem paradoxical in the initial consideration, I suppose that is only because God didn't create us to be at odds with His creation. We understand the elements because we are made in His image, and we appreciate the logic of creation- and not just the logic but also the beauty and truth it displays.

Who is God? One Father Almighty, one Son begotten of the Father, one Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father: one in essence, diverse in Persons. This is the True God, everywhere made known by His image in man and His energies in all creation: "18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,..." (Romans 1:18-20, NKJV; italics mine.)

This same God has made us in our very nature to be His children, and we must each be transformed into His likeness. In putting on Christ, "3... His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2 Peter 1:3-4)

We are broken, stained mirrors, but we are not false images. We are made in God's image and called to be transformed into His likeness, and only through Christ, who is "the Way, the Truth, and the Life" (John 14:6), can we be brought to the wholeness that our very being cries out for.

Please hold fast to your faith- believe together with all the Body of Christ that our diverse and confused wanderings can find perfect unified fulfillment only in the everlasting love of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Amen.

O Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, be merciful to us sinners!

-David

 

[Dust and Ashes]

I have felt the draw to Islam that you have felt and it is very real. Whenever I feel it, I cross myself and remember that I also feel drawn to commit vile acts with scantily clad women and the desire to savagely kill people who anger me. This helps me stay mindful that it is indeed a spiritual warfare and that I must resist.

You have my prayers. Please remember me in yours.

 

[MichaelNZ]

Well, one of my fathers has a friend who is Sufi, and he is a nice guy before he drinks to much beer. (Isn’t that forbidden in Islam?)

But Gnostics aside, Islam is Evil! Just look what the Hun did to the Holy Byzantine empire. And to the Armenians, And Copts, And Greeks, And Visigoths, And Zoroastrian Persians, And Hindus, And Various people in the Balkans, And now they attack Israel, those blood-thirsty death eaters! Their entire religion is about force converting people and be given 72 young virgin girls to rape for an eternity. EVIL! I am sure Mohammed (may worms eat him forever) was given his evil ideas by a Demon, not an Angel.

Islam is Evil. And it is every Christian’s duty to fight Evil. We must drive the Hun out of the Holy city of Constantinople with weapons in our hands! Then the emperors of Byzantium will have peace in heaven when they know their city is safe…

I mentioned this to them, and they told me "Don't judge Islam by Muslims". These people, according to them, don't represent all of Islam, and their actions cannot be used as proof that Islam is false. I quoted Ayatollah Khomeini to them about marrying 9 year old girls, and they said "Does he represent all of Islam?" Then they said "If the Pope said something, would you accept it?" Of course I wouldn't. He's not Orthodox.

 

[Sothron]

Michael,

Can you truly denounce Christ? You would have to forsake Him if you renounce your faith. Are you ready to make that step?

I know you have had problems in your spiritual walk but please do not forsake the truth for a false religion. I will pray for you and hope you resist this temptation and put it behind you.

 

[Mytheodos]

"Don't judge Islam by Muslims"

Okay, lets judge Islam by the Qur'an.

6. Contradictions in the Qur'an.​

The Qur'an states that it is a perfect book preserved on tablets in heaven (Surah 85:21-22). If the Qur'an is a perfect book from Allah, then there shouldn't be any contradictions in it. Of course, the Muslims will deny any contradictions exist in the Qur'an, but they do. Some of the contradictions below could be debated, but some of them are clearly contradictions.
A contradiction occurs when one statement on a subject excludes the possibility of another. The first one here is a good example. In Surah 19:67, it states that man was created out of nothing. In 15:26, man is created from clay. Since clay is something, we have a contradiction since “nothing” excludes the possibility of “clay.” Both cannot be true.
All quotes from the Qur'an, unless otherwise specified, are from Yusuf Ali and can be found at the Qur'an online.

What was man created from, blood, clay, dust, or nothing?
“Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood,” (96:2).
“We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape, (15:26).
“The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: “Be.” And he was,” (3:59).
“But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?” (19:67, Yusuf Ali). Also, 52:35).
“He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer! (16:4).

Is there or is there not compulsion in religion according to the Qur'an?
“Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things,” (2:256).
“And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith,” (9:3).
“But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful,” (9:5).
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued,” (9:29).

The first Muslim was Muhammad? Abraham? Jacob? Moses?
“And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam,” (39:12).
“When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: “O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee.” Allah said: “By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me.” When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: “Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe.” (7:143).
“And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; “Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam,” (2:132).

Does Allah forgive or not forgive those who worship false gods?
Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed,” (4:48). Also 4:116
The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven: Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: “Show us Allah in public,” but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority,” (4:153).

Are Allah's decrees changed or not?
“Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers,” (6:34).
“The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all, (6:115).
None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?” (2:106).
When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, “Thou art but a forger”: but most of them understand not,” (16:101).

Is wine consumption good or bad?
O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination, of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper,” (5:90).
(Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?” (47:15).
Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss: On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things): Thou wilt recognize in their faces the beaming brightness of Bliss. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed” (83:22-25).
This list was compiled from resources found on the web at Answering Islam, a List of problems in the Quran. and Errors in the Qur'an.

 

[nutroll]

I am going to say something that might be very hard to hear. I do this with the hope that it brings insight, and helps you sort through what you are going through. In my college years, I spent a lot of time researching fundamentalism for my thesis. The basic premise in my thesis was that fundamentalism has much more to do with one's psychological state and their way of thinking than with actual beliefs. I think most people presume that fundamentalists believe things so strongly that they become rigid or unbending in their beliefs, and yet in my research, I ran across a case of a man who was raised believing in a literal six day creation, and then went to college and became an atheistic evolutionist, only to later change back. What was interesting was that each time, the change was almost instantaneous, and he was entirely certain of the correctness of his position. As I studied more, I learned that as long as a belief system gives certain securities and will fit with an absolutist way of thinking, it is surprisingly easy for a fundamentalist to change all of their beliefs. Now the reason that I am saying all of this is that I have seen you gung ho about Orthodoxy, and then wanting to pursue "True" Orthodoxy, and then within the last few weeks being shaken by what you heard from some Jehovah's Witnesses, to now feeling drawn to Islam. All of these appear authoritative, and all of them are absolutist in their beliefs (or at least can be). But it is my contention that fundamentalism is not really belief. In a sense, it is a substitute for belief. It is latching onto something that seems certain so that we don't have to deal with uncertainty.

I don't know that any of this applies, as I said, I see some things in your posts of late that seem to indicate this might lie at the root of some of your problems. What I would suggest is to really examine yourself. See if you really believe what you say you believe. Do you feel that you really know God, or that you mostly know about God? Because ultimately, the point of being Orthodox is not to know stuff about God, but to encounter God. It is my belief that the best place to encounter God is in the Orthodox Church. One could spend a whole lifetime seeking God in the various religions of the world, and no doubt one could learn some good life lessons, but if you spend all that time and don't experience communion with God, what have you really gained? Again, I hope that this does not describe you at all, and if it does, I hope that you won't take offense, But I don't want to see you always seeking and never really finding what you are looking for.

 

[Silentchapel]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to nutroll again.

 

[Shubunkin]

When we were in Spain, the citizens were still grateful to this day for the Crusades, because the Muslim invaders terrorized the citizens for a long time while they settled there. They were always living in fear of them. This is what they told us. We went to the Alhambra, and saw the architecture, and was interested in seeing there were many concubine rooms. Some religion that would be. I agree that as Christians we should not participate in a so-called "holy war" but it seems they were hoping for a "God send" when the Crusaders came through and ran them all out.

 

[Anhelyna]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to nutroll again.

It is done

 

[xristos.anesti]

Michael stop thinking about it - I will slap you if you don't.

Think about it - Aotearoa is not that far from sunny Queensland for me to have much problems to come over there and execute my threat



Seriously bro,

This is the faith,
this is the way,
this is the commencement,
this is the conclusion,
this is all that matters -

and without this nothing matters.

 

[Dorothea]

Listen to everyone, Michael. Tsarina especially knows. God bless you and keep you in the True Faith.

 

[Shubunkin]

I do think the only reason Islam is interesting, especially to males, is for the fact they can believe in God, and yet not have to keep any morals. That is the draw of it.