Islam is not our friend

[SolomonVII]

I obviously have problems with Islam itself, being a Christian. However, not all Muslims are the gun-toting terrorists we see on television. Yet the history of our difficulties shouldn't be glossed over for some false ecumenism.

La Civilta Cattolica, an influential Jesuit magazine, recently published a good article on this: http://213.92.16.98/ESW_articolo/0,2393,41931,00.html

Pax Christi,
John

The question is, does their religion promote a gun-toting terrorist ideology or not. Several people have presented the idea that Bin Laden and his ilk are, according to their religion, the "good' ones, and conversely to promote peace with the infidel is going against the tenets of the faith.

 

[Marth]

I'm a TRUE Christian. People who kill, steal, etc, etc, are NOT true Christians, and those are the people whom I am addressing.

are you saying that christians who go into wars (I.E. the war right now) are not christian? if so then you are really far from the truth. what in your opinion is a "true" christian? also are you saying that people who steal THEN become christians are not true christians? or are you saying that those who steal and are already christians are not true christians? lets say (if you have one or not) your brother killed/stole and he was a christian and he asked for forgiveness, are you still saying that person who stole/killed isnt a true christian. or are you saying that those who stole (and convert to being christians) are not able to be these so called "true christians" that you see? also i really like your self-esteem. jokin of course.

 

[jbarcher]

I think Marvel is eluding to people who kill because of wrong (unjust) motives. Obviously, he knows that Christian men and women have had to kill in the past; WW2, for example.

But this wording of true...although, yes, there are false Christians, those who call themselves followers yet could not be further from that...I think Marvel is talking about one subject; just not making it as clear as day.

 

[ZiSunka]

My friend Victor just got held up and robbed by some muslim soldiers. They had made a roadblock and were going to every car to find out who was inside. They searched his car and when they found the study Bible I sent him months ago, they took everyone out of the car, beat them, took everything they owned except their clothes, even the car. They had to walk four hours beaten up and in the freezing cold to get to the town.

Not every muslim is a persecutor, but they are opposed to us and the Haddith, the second most important muslim holy book calls for them to hurt us as enemies of islam. They are promised great rewards for killing us and Jews especially. We are considered allah's greatest enemies and the hatred of us runs deep and violent.

Don't be fooled. Muslims are killing us.

 

[Qingchen]

I think current war in Iraq is just. This war is against Saddom and terrorists instead of Islam or Iraqi people.
And I think so many Jewish, so many Chinese, and so many Americans would survive if U.S. declared war in the very beginning of Nazi attacking Poland and the Empire of Japan attacking China.

 

[ananar23]

I am a Christian who was born to an Iranian Muslim (shiite) who left his family in America in the name of Islam. Let me tell you, Islam has never been our friend. An interesting thing comes to mind when i think of islam. It was "discovered" after Christianity so....correct me if i am wrong but an old youth group lesson comes to mind that Satan can only do what God has done first (and never as good, obviously)..that he cant make a relgion, but he can mock one. This is what i think of Islam, in some ways it mocks Christianity, but not to an exact point. Dont get me wrong i love Muslims, im not going to judge them, not my job. its just that every time someone mentions Islam i think of that old youth group lesson, and i wasnt even a true believer yet.

 

[MinDach]

correct me if i am wrong but an old youth group lesson comes to mind that Satan can only do what God has done first (and never as good, obviously)..that he cant make a relgion, but he can mock one. This is what i think of Islam, in some ways it mocks Christianity,

Yes you are right, No where in the Bibles does it ever talk about Islam or Mohammed
But you will find in the Koran it talking about the Jews, and Christians. The Jews believe that Mohammed had
access to the Holy writing, that would be only normal, for Mohammed
live in the same countrys as the Jews.

 

[TheFirstNoelle]

Yes you are right, No where in the Bibles does it ever talk about Islam or Mohammed
But you will find in the Koran it talking about the Jews, and Christians

Um....that would be because Mohammad had his revelation in the 7th century, hundreds of years after the Bible was written and compiled. The Qu'ran speaks of Christ with a lot of respect, actually, although it denies Christ's divinity.

Br. Max -- you are coming across to me as borderline racist (religionist/whatever). Do you know anything about the Crusades at all??? As a scholar of medieval manuscript studies and history, I can tell you that whatever Muslims may have done to provoke Christians to war in the Holy Land (and I'm not even going to get into who "started" the wars there), the actions performed by Christian soldiers in the Middle East were atrocious. Even if the Muslim peoples were attacking Christians, etc, hello! This was the land of birth, home, and faith for the Muslim people!! Christians across Europe listened to the propaganda of Pope UrbanII in 1095 and schlepped over to Jerusalem, Antioch, etc, to release the Holy Land from the Infidels, and then hey, most of them could head on back to their nice homes in far away lands once they had wreaked utter destruction on the Muslim cities.

Not that Muslims were good, kind, understanding people towards CHristians, but there is more evidence of Muslim mercy on prisoners and such during the crusades than there is of Christian mercy for Muslims and Jews. You try reading first-hand accounts of Christian activity in the Holy Land - gratuitous pillaging and killing, burning people alive in sacred buildings, skewering little children on sticks and roasting them, torturing the elderly - before you suggest that this kind of behavior was in any way justified. THe Christians left with a lot of loot, and the Muslim population was decimated and treated with utter disdain. I'm sorry, but the Crusades as done by "Christians" make me completely ashamed & saddened.

 

[Geoff_Conn]

* Alenci nods at what was just said

Both religions are full of hypocrites, followers that don't follow what they preach (or in some cases what they deceive others into thinking they're preaching).

Christainity is'nt a religion.

Religion is standing @ the door of the cross, christainity is being on the cross.

 

[Xen_Antares]

What fights are you accusing Christians of starting?

The Crusades come to mind. Christian Armies of Europe invaded Palestine and sacked Jerusalem, raping, murdering and pillaging the whole way. Not very Christ like if you ask me. Once Jerusalem was under Christian control, Muslims and Jews were forbidden to enter the city.

Personally I see the fall of Constantinople as being a harder symbolic blow to Christianity, but it shouldnt matter what cities are under whose influence, to bad the crusaders and modern day warriors in that region cant figure that out.

 

[SolomonVII]

Um....that would be because Mohammad had his revelation in the 7th century, hundreds of years after the Bible was written and compiled. The Qu'ran speaks of Christ with a lot of respect, actually, although it denies Christ's divinity.

Br. Max -- you are coming across to me as borderline racist (religionist/whatever). Do you know anything about the Crusades at all??? As a scholar of medieval manuscript studies and history, I can tell you that whatever Muslims may have done to provoke Christians to war in the Holy Land (and I'm not even going to get into who "started" the wars there), the actions performed by Christian soldiers in the Middle East were atrocious. Even if the Muslim peoples were attacking Christians, etc, hello! This was the land of birth, home, and faith for the Muslim people!! Christians across Europe listened to the propaganda of Pope UrbanII in 1095 and schlepped over to Jerusalem, Antioch, etc, to release the Holy Land from the Infidels, and then hey, most of them could head on back to their nice homes in far away lands once they had wreaked utter destruction on the Muslim cities.

Not that Muslims were good, kind, understanding people towards CHristians, but there is more evidence of Muslim mercy on prisoners and such during the crusades than there is of Christian mercy for Muslims and Jews. You try reading first-hand accounts of Christian activity in the Holy Land - gratuitous pillaging and killing, burning people alive in sacred buildings, skewering little children on sticks and roasting them, torturing the elderly - before you suggest that this kind of behavior was in any way justified. THe Christians left with a lot of loot, and the Muslim population was decimated and treated with utter disdain. I'm sorry, but the Crusades as done by "Christians" make me completely ashamed & saddened.

Nobody could really argue that the germanic tribes of Western Christiandom were a tame and highly cultured group of people. Nietchze was undoubtedly pleased. These people that eventually became Christian loved their private wars of raping and pillaging. And while most historians would agree that Christianity did have a civilizing effect on these tribes, initially the effect was little more than limiting their wars to days that did not fall on the Sabbath or the increasing number of feast days. Even many of the early bishops interpreted prohibitions against drawing blood by switching from swords to maces in their battles. The usual tactic was to swoop down on another nobleman's manor and destroy the crops and the nobleman's serfs, therby making it very difficult for the enemy mobleman to survive the winter without needed food and supplies that their serfs would provide.
That the people who nailed their criminals to crosses would regard these germanic tribes (who later would make up the bulk of Western Christendom) as barbarians gives us a good indication of the nature of these early Christians.

On the other hand though, as the link the OP supplied us with suggests, context is everything. The proper context for the Crusades is the both rapid and steady encroachments of Moslem armies and Moslem cultures into lands that were at one time Christian. And the acts of savagery committed by the Crusaders ultimately had a less genocidal effect than the Moslem system of slavery and dhimmitude which has effectively made almost all of the countries of the Moslem middle east judenfrein to an extent that even Hitler and one and a half millenia of Christian pograms failed to achieve.

Christians have fared little better in such lands, and centuries of dhimmitude have taught the indigenous Christians well their proper place in such societies.

I guess the question boils down to whether the better stategy to the current situation is to remain tender-hearted and frozen into inaction by the guilt of past wrongs, or let the blood run as cold in our veins as it obviously did in the veins of our ancestors. I am of the opinion that the only language that the fascist minds regimes of people such as Hitlers and Husseins and bin Laden's of the world will understand is the cold logic of overwhelming force. And to be clear, the leaders of the current Western coalition have as little in common with the barbarism of a Richard the Lion-Hearted as the the bin Ladens and Arafats have in common with the magnamity and relative civility of a Suleimon.

 

[Silent Enigma]

At any rate, are you guys familiar with the Voice of the Martyers newsletter? You ought to look into it (at persecution.com I think). The reality of Islam, when it is in control, is painful.

 

[engiin]

No where in the Bibles does it ever talk about Islam or Mohammed.

Matthew|10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall
receive a prophet's reward;

Islam views Jesus as a prophet. There is even a curious Gospel of Barnabus (claimed to be a forgery) that has Jesus telling of the coming Messiah Mohammed. But when Mohammed came, he too was considered a prophet. So, we've got the interesting case of a prophet Mohammed being recieved in the name of God (Allah), but the God that sent him is really Jesus, who Islam claims is a prophet. (Because there's only one God, and the Father and Son are one, so what name people call him doesn't change the fact that he is only one being. ). So, this topsy turvy state of affairs leads to that statement which is curiously to be found in the Gospel of Matthew. The bible seems to know everything. If you know where to look.

 

[Kelly]

Interesting how Islam's views of Jesus automatically negate it's believers from salvation. They believe that Jesus was not God/Son of God and they also do not believe he died on the cross (but was taken up to heaven).

Satan is a mimicker.

2 Cor 11:14
And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

He wants to be God

Isa 14:13
You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly"

I think it's his attempt at religion.

As a side note..I wonder how God feels when he sees masses of people, praying 5 times a day, in unison. When he sees people who are willing to die for their beliefs, who move to defend others of their faith no matter what the cost. Not saying this is in line with our scriptures, but the devotion.... compare that to the Christian who makes it to church maybe once a month, or on Christmas eve and Easter Sunday.

 

[Pure Paradox]

It was "discovered" after Christianity so....correct me if i am wrong but an old youth group lesson comes to mind that Satan can only do what God has done first (and never as good, obviously)..that he cant make a relgion, but he can mock one. This is what i think of Islam, in some ways it mocks Christianity, but not to an exact point. Dont get me wrong i love Muslims, im not going to judge them, not my job

.

Oh. ::stares at screen:: I never thought of Islam like that before. I think you are right-- Satan is a brilliant mimicker, and Islam is his attempt at religion.

 

[MinDach]

Um....that would be because Mohammad had his revelation in the 7th century, hundreds of years after the Bible was written and compiled. The Qu'ran speaks of Christ with a lot of respect, actually, although it denies Christ's divinity.

4004BC Adam and Eve's first two children are born, Cain and Abel (Gen. 4). Cain kills Abel (Ibid.)

3900 Enoch is born, Cain's first son. Seth is born to Adam and Eve. Irad, Cain's first grandchild, is born (Gen. 4).

3400 Enoch, the great, great, great, grandchild of Seth, is born. At this same general time period, Methuselah was born (Gen. 5)

3000 Noah is born (ca. 2948 B.C., Gen. 5: 29).

2500 Noah's sons are both, Shem, Ham, and Jepheth (Gen. 6: 9). It was about this time that Noah was commissioned to build the Ark (Gen. 6).

2350 The flood waters cover the entire earth (Gen. 7). (James Ussher suggest 2349 as the flood date, the Samaritan Pentateuch has 2998, the Hebrew Bible has 2288, and the Septuagint lists 3246 has the date of the flood). Noah's three sons began to repopulate the earth (Gen. 9: 1).

2300 The Tower of Babel and its destruction (Gen. 11). The confusion of tongues and the scattering of the people.

2000 The death of Noah (ca. 1998 B. C., Gen. 9: 28, 29).

1920 The call of Abram occurs at about this time (Gen. 12: 1). Abram and Lot depart Haran, as God instructed. God promised to make a great nation (Gen. 12). A son is promised to Abram (Gen. 15).

1890 The destruction of Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plain (Gen. 19). The birth of Isaac, Abram's promised son (Gen. 19, 21: 3).

1872 Abraham is put to a test regarding Isaac (Gen. 22).

1730 Joseph is sold to the Midianites and his consequent experiences that result in him becoming a ruler in Egypt (Gen. 37 - 47).

1680 The Book of Genesis comes to a close, having covered approximately 2300 years of history.

1571 Moses is born . Moses is adopted into the Egyptian royal court.

1491 The call of Moses and his commission (the burning bush experience, Ex. 2). The ten plagues (Ex. 7 - 12). Israel is liberated from Egyptian bondage (Ex. 12 ff.). The giving of the Ten Commandment Law (Ex. 20, some provide the date of 1445 for the giving of the law). Hence, after about 2, 500 years the system of Patriarchy comes to a close.

1451 The death of Moses (Deut. 34). Joshua is appointed as Moses' successor (Josh. 1).

1425 The Abrahamic land promise is realized (Gen. 12; Josh. 24).

1400 The beginning of the judges and their governing of Israel, covering about 305 years (ca. 1095 B. C., see Judges 1 - I Samuel 8).

1095 The appointment of Saul to be King of Israel (I Sam. 10, some have 1050 as the date).

1063 David defeats Goliath (I Sam. 17).

1055 David is appointed King (2 Sam. 2, some have 1010 B. C.).

1015 Solomon, David's son, is appointed King (I Kgs. 1, 2, some believe 970 is the more likely time for the appointment of Solomon).

992 The Queen of Sheba visits Solomon (I Kgs. 10).

975 Solomon's death and Rehoboam succeeds Solomon to the throne (I Kgs. 12, some have 931 as the date). The Kingdom is divided. When Solomon died, the fight for his throne results in the twelve tribes of Israel dividing, creating the Great Schism. The two southern tribes, Benjamine and Judah, maintaining Jerusalem as their capital, become "The Kingdom of Judah" under the reign of Rehoboam. He reigns 17 years. The ten northern tribes of Israel revolt, becoming "The Kingdom of Israel" under the rulership of Jeroboam. He reigns 21 years. Israel's continues, with 19 Kings from the reign of Solomon, for 254 years. Israel makes Samaria its capitol.

722 The Assyrians capture Samaria and take Israel captive (cp. 2 Chroni. 33, end of the Kingdom of Israel).

597 Jerusalem is captured by Babylon (cp. 2 Chroni. 36).

536 First group returns from captivity (see Ezra 2).

458 The second group returns from bondage (Ezra 8).

444 The walls of Jerusalem are rebuilt under the leadership of Nehemiah (Nehe. 1-7).

398 The completion of the 39 books that constitute the "Old Testament" see Malachi). This date began the "400 years of silence" between Malachi and Matthew (New Testament).



New Testament Time Line (Most dates are approximate, the below time table is primarily based on Jesus being born in 3 BC, as some Roman calendars "suggest this date" for Jesus' birth):



Date: Event:



5-3BC Jesus and John the Baptist are born (many believe Jesus was actually born BC because of a matter involving the Roman Calendar, Lk. 1, 2). Herod dies and is succeeded by Archelaus.

6 AD Annas becomes High Priest. Archelaus is deposed by Augustus and replaced by Herod Antipas.

7 A young Jesus astounds the priests in the Temple with his wisdom (Lk. 2).

14 Augustus dies and is succeeded by Tiberius as emperor.

15 Annas is removed as High Priest and son-in-law Caiaphas eventually succeeds him.

26 Pontius Pilate becomes Procurator of Judea until 36 AD.

27 John the Baptist began is ministry (Lk. 3: 1, 2). Jesus is baptized by John and also begins his ministry (Mk. 1: 4-11).

30 Jesus is crucified and resurrected from the dead (some scholars list the date as 33 AD. There are good arguments for both dates. This time table is based primarily on Jesus' birth occurring at 3 BC. Hence, Jesus would have been 30 years of age when crucified).

32 Gamaliel encourages tolerance of the Christians in his famous speech (Acts 5: 33-42).

36 Steven becomes the first martyr. It appears that about this same year, Paul is mentioned as persecuting Christians and later becoming a Christian himself (Acts 7, 9).

40 The Gentiles are officially received as exemplified in the case of Cornelius and his household (Acts 10). Caligula is assassinated and Claudius becomes emperor of Rome until 54 AD.

43 Paul and Barnabas preach the gospel in Antioch (Acts 11: 20-26).

44 Paul and Barnabas take contributions to Jerusalem from Antioch (Acts 11: 27-30). James, the brother of John, is put to death by Herod Agrippa I (Acts 12: 1-3).

46 Paul goes on his first preaching trip (Acts 13, 14, the first trip was probably 46-49 or part of 50 AD).

49 Paul and Barnabas return to Antioch after their first preaching trip (Acts 14).

50 The famous Jerusalem meeting in which the issue of the Christians of Jewish descent binding the Law of Moses on Christians of Gentile ancestry was discussed and debated (Acts 15).

51 Paul and Barnabas separate over John Mark (Acts 15: 36). Paul and Silas went on Paul's second organized preaching trip (Acts 15: 36 - 18: 23, about three years, 54 AD).

52 Some place the writing of Galatians and perhaps the Epistle of James at 52 AD.

54 Paul returns to Antioch of Syria, ending his second preaching trip (Acts 18: 22). There is great likelihood that the event mentioned in Galatians 2: 11-14 occurred at this time. It is believed to have also been 54 AD that Paul went on his third trip in preaching the gospel (Acts 18: 23).

56 It was during 55, 56 AD that Paul appears to have written I and 2 Corinthians.

58 Paul begins his return trip to Jerusalem (Acts 20: 3).

59 Paul is arrested and imprisoned in Caesarea for two years (Acts 22-24).

60 Some believe Mark and Matthew were written in 60 AD.

62 After two years, it is believed that Nero found Paul innocent of wrongdoing and Paul is set free (Acts 28). It was during this confinement in Rome that Paul wrote his prison epistles (Ephesians, Colossians, etc.). Acts would then cover a span of about 30 years and is a valuable source of information relative to inception, growth, and problems experienced by the early church.

64 Rome burns and Nero blames the Christians. As a result severe persecution against Christians is experienced.

66 Some list 66 AD as the time of Paul's second imprisonment. Paul apparently is put to death at this time (cp. 2 Tim. 4: 6-8).

70 The Temple at Jerusalem is destroyed as prophesied by Jesus (Matt. 24).

81 Domitian is appointed emperor and eventually begins severe persecution of Christians.

85 The writing of Second and Third John.

96 John is on the Island of Patmos to receive visions that constitute the Book of Revelation. John is believed to have died in Ephesus in 100 AD. With the death of the apostles, the age of inspiration came to a close (see Jude 3).

 

[Bevlina]

Thankyou for that wonderful information MinDach.

 

[Pastor_Benjamin]

The question here is the divinity of the koran. The koran states that Jesus was a prophet, but my bible tells me the only was to get into heaven is through the Son Jesus Christ.

 

[ElElohe]

Well, Christianity is a religion in the social sense. And Scripture even addresses what "true" religion is in James (chapter 1 I think). But I understand your sentiment.

Christainity is'nt a religion.

Religion is standing @ the door of the cross, christainity is being on the cross.

 

[ElElohe]

You are correct here in a number of ways. I too am ashamed, to a degree, of the Crusades. But I will not let that shape my own faith or, more importanly, my action on my faith. The Crusades were atrocious, and I'm not away of anything the Muslims did to provoke them (note the phrase "I am not aware"). And . . . see next post

. . . Not that Muslims were good, kind, understanding people towards CHristians, but there is more evidence of Muslim mercy on prisoners and such during the crusades than there is of Christian mercy for Muslims and Jews. You try reading first-hand accounts of Christian activity in the Holy Land - gratuitous pillaging and killing, burning people alive in sacred buildings, skewering little children on sticks and roasting them, torturing the elderly - before you suggest that this kind of behavior was in any way justified. THe Christians left with a lot of loot, and the Muslim population was decimated and treated with utter disdain. I'm sorry, but the Crusades as done by "Christians" make me completely ashamed & saddened.