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Islam is better than its adherents

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Nooj

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I have problems with Islam. I have problems with Muhammad. But I find Muslims who all too often, do not follow the tenets of their religion, or follow the tenets of their religion too well, more troublesome than the religion itself. Let me give an example.

Muslims are called upon to help the poor:

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 4, Book 51, Number 11:

Narrated Abu Huraira:
A man asked the Prophet, "O Allah's Apostle! What kind of charity is the best?" He replied. "To give in charity when you are healthy and greedy hoping to be wealthy and afraid of becoming poor. Don't delay giving in charity till the time when you are on the death bed when you say, 'Give so much to so-and-so and so much to so-and so,' and at that time the property is not yours but it belongs to so-and-so (i.e. your inheritors)."
What do you see the Arabian states doing? Building higher and higher skyscrapers, spending more and more money on horse and camel racing.

Muslims are enjoined not to convert others by force:


Surah Al-Baqara, ayat 256

YUSUFALI: Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
That has not stopped various Islamic empires throughout history enforcing Islam upon others by the sword, even when their very own religion tells them not to do it!

I have a whole heap of complaints about Muslims, definitely longer than the list I have against Islam. Slavery is sanctioned in Islam, I find that despicable. But the good treatment of slaves and the freeing of slaves is one of the most prominent ideals established in the Qur'an. So what happened when Muslim slave-traders traded and treated humans like chattel, only a few hundred years ago?

I find the overly defensive nature of Muslims to be frankly, tiring. Yes, I understand that there are disgusting attacks made on you, sometimes daily and in real life. But there are a whole lot of non-Muslims who do not do that. In fact, some of your best defenders are people whom some among your community would consider to be enemies: B'Tselem or millions of Americans, or even the member of the American armed forces who deliver humanitarian aid.

Sometimes, when a suicide bomber blows himself up in front of the Danish Embassy, it just may not be his poverty or ignorance that motivates him to kill fellow Muslims. It's a warped view of Islam, promoted by Muslims. No better example of why some Muslims fail Islam exists than suicide bombers. Suicide is outright forbidden:

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 2, Book 23, Number 446: Narrated Abu Huraira-:
The Prophet said, "He who commits suicide by throttling shall keep on throttling himself in the Hell Fire (forever) and he who commits suicide by stabbing himself shall keep on stabbing himself in the Hell-Fire."
And so is murder. Martyrdom is upheld as virtuous by Islam, but not when you kill innocents along the way. Every Muslim I have met have told me that whether it is used against military targets or a packed nightclub, suicide bombing is un-Islamic.

That doesn't mean every Muslim in the world thinks so. Some Muslims have said that suicide bombing is okay when it's used against military targets, namely Israel. I wouldn't mind suicide bombing so much if it was used only against the military. Checkpoints for instance. Instead, terrorists use this most un-Islamic of methods in cafes. And some people sanction this sort of murder, because Israelis, children and all, are cogs in the Israeli machine and hence valid targets. This sort of thinking is repulsive, because if these children might one day grow up to be soldiers, then Israel has the same justification to kill Palestinian children - it is madness of the worst kind, and I can't believe that some people are actually taking this route.

So yeah, I seem to have run out of steam. If only every Muslim was a 'model Muslim', perhaps Islam could be held in higher esteem among many Westerners. I have heard Muslims say that we should not judge Islam by its adherents, but it still surely reflects badly on their religion. Maybe those terrorists, or those fundamentalists who think it's okay to cut off people's heads, need to take their religion seriously.
 

français

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So then, they really should kill the infidels where they find them then, franc? Cuz that's also in there.
You know nothing about Islam, obviously. You need to understand uloom al qu'ran wa uloom al hadeeth wa uloom al tafsir before saying such.

If you knew even the slightest about how the Qu'raan is interpreted, you would not say such stupid, idiotic things.

Get a life.
The ideals of Islam are evil

Muhammed their 'example' of man had 'approval' from their god for under-age sex, murder of critics, lying for your religion (when it's expedient) etc.
Lying for religion is only done in Shia, not in Sunni. The Shia are a minority.

Under aged sex.. This depends on one's personal morals and understandings. Like polygamy, it is more of a personal opinion that causes one to support/oppose it, not a concrete reasoning.

Murder of critics - It depends. You are listening to one side, but not the other, and this is obvious by your lack of knowledge on Islam. In other threads, you have been corrected on even some of the basic beliefs of Islam.

You think you are tough stuff, but you aren't. you are a man who clearly does not like a religion. I think that inside you believe that it is an authentic religion, and you hate to think of that, so you try to repress your feelings by making Islam look bad.

If that is not the case, then you must have a major hate for Islam, and I think you need to talk to someone about this hate. I am not a genius, but I have a degree in Sociology and I had to take a lot of Psychology classes in the process, and you seem to fit some of the symptoms of one who needs help.
 
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Montalban

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français;47464531 said:
Lying for religion is only done in Shia, not in Sunni. The Shia are a minority.
So in Hadith when Muhammed encouraged someone to do this, he was Shi'a?
français;47464531 said:
Under aged sex.. This depends on one's personal morals and understandings. Like polygamy, it is more of a personal opinion that causes one to support/oppose it, not a concrete reasoning.
Polygamy is an uneven relationship of the sexes, unless they allow all the women to have sex with each other, which isn't allowed in Islam
français;47464531 said:
Murder of critics - It depends. You are listening to one side, but not the other, and this is obvious by your lack of knowledge on Islam. In other threads, you have been corrected on even some of the basic beliefs of Islam.

You think you are tough stuff, but you aren't. you are a man who clearly does not like a religion. I think that inside you believe that it is an authentic religion, and you hate to think of that, so you try to repress your feelings by making Islam look bad.

If that is not the case, then you must have a major hate for Islam, and I think you need to talk to someone about this hate. I am not a genius, but I have a degree in Sociology and I had to take a lot of Psychology classes in the process, and you seem to fit some of the symptoms of one who needs help.
If you have to personalise it, it shows you've nothing further to add
 
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français

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So in Hadith when Muhammed encouraged someone to do this, he was Shi'a?
Post the Hadeith.
Polygamy is an uneven relationship of the sexes, unless they allow all the women to have sex with each other, which isn't allowed in Islam
and this is your personal opinion, exactly as I said.
If you have to personalise it, it shows you've nothing further to add
Because you just don't stop. And you need to seek help because your bigotry is out of hand.
 
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Montalban

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français;47464946 said:
Post the Hadeith.
I've done this before in debates
Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it." Then Muhammad bin Maslama went to Kab and said, "That man (i.e. Muhammad demands Sadaqa (i.e. Zakat) from us, and he has troubled us, and I have come to borrow something from you." On that, Kab said, "By Allah, you will get tired of him!" Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Now as we have followed him, we do not want to leave him unless and until we see how his end is going to be. Now we want you to lend us a camel load or two of food." (Some difference between narrators about a camel load or two.) Kab said, "Yes, (I will lend you), but you should mortgage something to me." Muhammad bin Mas-lama and his companion said, "What do you want?" Ka'b replied, "Mortgage your women to me." They said, "How can we mortgage our women to you and you are the most handsome of the 'Arabs?" Ka'b said, "Then mortgage your sons to me." They said, "How can we mortgage our sons to you? Later they would be abused by the people's saying that so-and-so has been mortgaged for a camel load of food. That would cause us great disgrace, but we will mortgage our arms to you." Muhammad bin Maslama and his companion promised Kab that Muhammad would return to him. He came to Kab at night along with Kab's foster brother, Abu Na'ila. Kab invited them to come into his fort, and then he went down to them. His wife asked him, "Where are you going at this time?" Kab replied, "None but Muhammad bin Maslama and my (foster) brother Abu Na'ila have come." His wife said, "I hear a voice as if dropping blood is from him, Ka'b said. "They are none but my brother Muhammad bin Maslama and my foster brother Abu Naila. A generous man should respond to a call at night even if invited to be killed." Muhammad bin Maslama went with two men. (Some narrators mention the men as 'Abu bin Jabr. Al Harith bin Aus and Abbad bin Bishr). So Muhammad bin Maslama went in together with two men, and sail to them, "When Ka'b comes, I will touch his hair and smell it, and when you see that I have got hold of his head, strip him. I will let you smell his head." Kab bin Al-Ashraf came down to them wrapped in his clothes, and diffusing perfume. Muhammad bin Maslama said. " have never smelt a better scent than this. Ka'b replied. "I have got the best 'Arab women who know how to use the high class of perfume." Muhammad bin Maslama requested Ka'b "Will you allow me to smell your head?" Ka'b said, "Yes." Muhammad smelt it and made his companions smell it as well. Then he requested Ka'b again, "Will you let me (smell your head)?" Ka'b said, "Yes." When Muhammad got a strong hold of him, he said (to his companions), "Get at him!" So they killed him and went to the Prophet and informed him. (Abu Rafi) was killed after Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.059.369
français;47464946 said:
Because you just don't stop. And you need to seek help because your bigotry is out of hand.
Bias works both ways.
 
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français

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I've done this before in debates
Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it." Then Muhammad bin Maslama went to Kab and said, "That man (i.e. Muhammad demands Sadaqa (i.e. Zakat) from us, and he has troubled us, and I have come to borrow something from you." On that, Kab said, "By Allah, you will get tired of him!" Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Now as we have followed him, we do not want to leave him unless and until we see how his end is going to be. Now we want you to lend us a camel load or two of food." (Some difference between narrators about a camel load or two.) Kab said, "Yes, (I will lend you), but you should mortgage something to me." Muhammad bin Mas-lama and his companion said, "What do you want?" Ka'b replied, "Mortgage your women to me." They said, "How can we mortgage our women to you and you are the most handsome of the 'Arabs?" Ka'b said, "Then mortgage your sons to me." They said, "How can we mortgage our sons to you? Later they would be abused by the people's saying that so-and-so has been mortgaged for a camel load of food. That would cause us great disgrace, but we will mortgage our arms to you." Muhammad bin Maslama and his companion promised Kab that Muhammad would return to him. He came to Kab at night along with Kab's foster brother, Abu Na'ila. Kab invited them to come into his fort, and then he went down to them. His wife asked him, "Where are you going at this time?" Kab replied, "None but Muhammad bin Maslama and my (foster) brother Abu Na'ila have come." His wife said, "I hear a voice as if dropping blood is from him, Ka'b said. "They are none but my brother Muhammad bin Maslama and my foster brother Abu Naila. A generous man should respond to a call at night even if invited to be killed." Muhammad bin Maslama went with two men. (Some narrators mention the men as 'Abu bin Jabr. Al Harith bin Aus and Abbad bin Bishr). So Muhammad bin Maslama went in together with two men, and sail to them, "When Ka'b comes, I will touch his hair and smell it, and when you see that I have got hold of his head, strip him. I will let you smell his head." Kab bin Al-Ashraf came down to them wrapped in his clothes, and diffusing perfume. Muhammad bin Maslama said. " have never smelt a better scent than this. Ka'b replied. "I have got the best 'Arab women who know how to use the high class of perfume." Muhammad bin Maslama requested Ka'b "Will you allow me to smell your head?" Ka'b said, "Yes." Muhammad smelt it and made his companions smell it as well. Then he requested Ka'b again, "Will you let me (smell your head)?" Ka'b said, "Yes." When Muhammad got a strong hold of him, he said (to his companions), "Get at him!" So they killed him and went to the Prophet and informed him. (Abu Rafi) was killed after Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.059.369
Ok, now tell me the isnaad of this hadeeth, and we will discuss. also, give me some quotes from Islamic scholars on their opinion on this hadeeth.
 
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Nooj

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i'm forced to ask... So?

such behavior is demonstrable in nearly all avenues of human endeavor.

metta,

~v
Indeed it is, but I feel I have to make a point that the most egregious examples of Muslim negligence lies with their own faults, not the religion itself. If a Christian expresses hate for a person, I see it as an aberration of Christianity, not reflective of Christianity itself. I don't see this often done with Islam.

The ideals of Islam are evil

Muhammed their 'example' of man had 'approval' from their god for under-age sex, murder of critics, lying for your religion (when it's expedient) etc.
Stay on topic or don't bother to post here at all. I didn't create this topic to discuss whether Islam was evil. I made it because I'm angry at some of its adherents for not making 'the religion of peace' peaceful and for neglecting their duty towards others. I will report you if you drag this thread under.
 
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Montalban

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Stay on topic or don't bother to post here at all. I didn't create this topic to discuss whether Islam was evil. I made it because I'm angry at some of its adherents for not making 'the religion of peace' peaceful and for neglecting their duty towards others. I will report you if you drag this thread under.

It goes to the very topic of your OP. You set this up yourself by suggesting that the ideals of Islam are better than the people praciticing it. I disagree with YOUR suggestion because I believe the people are better than the ideals.

So, you pick another topic that you want to argue and start a thread on it, or stick to this one and answer it.
 
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Nooj

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It goes to the very topic of your OP. You set this up yourself by suggesting that the ideals of Islam are better than the people praciticing it.
Actually, the thread title is misleading. I am suggesting that some people practicing Islam do not live up to the ideals of Islam. I am not suggesting that we discuss the merits of Islamic ideals.

I am talking about why the Saudi Arabian government is so negligent towards its foreign workers, in contrast to the humanitarian commandments of Islam. There are parts of Islam that I disagree morally with, but I'm not talking about that here. I am certainly not talking about how evil Islam is. Please create another thread for that sort of discussion.
 
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Montalban

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Actually, the thread title is not entirely correct. I am suggesting that some people practicing Islam do not live up to the ideals of Islam. I am not suggesting that we discuss what those ideals of Islam are, because we're already well aware of the good and bad parts of Islam.
Then how can you compare what they're doing to what they're supposed to be doing?
 
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yaqovzadeek

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Muslims are enjoined not to convert others by force:

That has not stopped various Islamic empires throughout history enforcing Islam upon others by the sword, even when their very own religion tells them not to do it!

I have a whole heap of complaints about Muslims, definitely longer than the list I have against Islam. Slavery is sanctioned in Islam, I find that despicable. But the good treatment of slaves and the freeing of slaves is one of the most prominent ideals established in the Qur'an. So what happened when Muslim slave-traders traded and treated humans like chattel, only a few hundred years ago?

.
The existence of White slaveryin America is one of the most little-known facts of American history. Colonial America was initially built with the blood, sweat and tears of White slaves to a far greater extent than Black slaves. In fact, America's first slaves were White people.

It's estimated that fully one-half to two-thirds of all White "immigrants" to Colonial America in the 17th and 18th centuries were actually slaves who had been brought against their will. They were known by the euphemism of "indentured servants," but in reality a great many of these people were true slaves. Their servitude was for life, and their children were forced to be slaves as well.
Most of them were brought from Ireland, Scotland and the impoverished working classes of England. They were both Protestant and Catholic, victims of religious wars and the inhuman greed of the English ruling classes. Very often the victims were falsely labeled as "criminals" to ease the guilty consciences of the wealthy ruling classes.
When White slaves arrived in the American colonies they were auctioned on the block just like Black slaves. White slave children were often sold and separated from their parents and White slave women were sold and separated from their husbands.
A great many White slaves were forced to work under cruel and demeaning conditions. The Virginia Colony prescribed "bodily punishment for not heeding the commands of the master." Half of the White slaves died within the first two years after their arrival in "the New World." Unsurprisingly, it was common for White slaves to run away — only to be hunted down and returned to their evil masters and mistresses. To help identify runaways the courts in Virginia demanded that everyone have identification and travel papers. White slaves had no rights whatsoever and could be beaten and cruelly abused with impunity.
 
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Nooj

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Well you try to pretend that white slavery was just a Muslim thing.Just wanna remind you it took place even in the US so why blame muslioms but pretend it did not happen elsewhere among non muslims.
I didn't mention white slavery. I was talking about Muslim slavery of Africans.
 
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Montalban

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Well you try to pretend that white slavery was just a Muslim thing.Just wanna remind you it took place even in the US so why blame muslioms but pretend it did not happen elsewhere among non muslims.

Which is a tu quoque argument
 
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