• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Islam doesn't condone terror

Status
Not open for further replies.

JJWhite

Newbie
Dec 24, 2009
2,818
95
U.S.A.
✟26,028.00
Faith
Muslim
Marital Status
Married
ok, isn't the thread really long and drawn out?

I had hear once that the later verses of the Quran nullify the earlier ones if they seem contradictory.

Stuff in the examples you cited can't be nullified, to my knowledge. It's more regarding 'rules', not things pertaining to creed.

A valid example of a nullification, for example, is when Islam forbade the consumption of alcohol in steps with the final verse revealed prohibiting it completely abrogating the earlier rulings.

Different scholars resort to 'abrogation' to resolve what appear to be contradictions at varying degrees. It appears to me that Hanafi scholars use it the most. Shaafi'i and Hanbali scholars of law hardly ever claim abrogation. So, when such and such a thing was allowed in situation A but not in situation B, instead of just saying, well situation B came later, so that's the new rule for every situation, they would examine situation A VS situation B and try to figure out what was different about the two scenarios making the same act permissible in one situation but not the other.

Did I explain that okay?
 
Upvote 0

PHenry42

Newbie
Feb 3, 2011
1,108
43
✟1,527.00
Faith
Muslim
- During Muhammad's lifetime, war was not declared before the presence of an Islaamic State. I understand this to show that vigilantism is not permitted and that a war may only be launched by a nation.

I'm not sure I'd agree with that. War was not declared before that, but neither had any part of the Quran dealing with matters of war and peace been sent down, so the community couldn't know how to respond to persecution and such things.

If an Islamic state was led by a bad ruler shirking his duty to declare war when it's religiously mandated, surely it would be up to the believers to do it? Does Allah accept the Nuremberg defence?
 
Upvote 0

razeontherock

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
26,546
1,480
WI
✟35,597.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
If an Islamic state was led by a bad ruler shirking his duty to declare war when it's religiously mandated, surely it would be up to the believers to do it?

Looks like this is the parallel to christian dominionism?

Carry on ...
 
Upvote 0

JJWhite

Newbie
Dec 24, 2009
2,818
95
U.S.A.
✟26,028.00
Faith
Muslim
Marital Status
Married
If an Islamic state was led by a bad ruler shirking his duty to declare war when it's religiously mandated, surely it would be up to the believers to do it? Does Allah accept the Nuremberg defence?

I really don't know that much about this kind of thing at all. What I do see are pretty consistent comments from our scholars saying 'No permission from a ruler of an Islamic State, no war'. Is this a general rule that applies most of the time with exceptions in certain particular scenarios? I wouldn't know.

I don't understand the Nuremberg defense thing.
 
Upvote 0
S

Servant of Jesus

Guest
Where would you like to start?


Quran (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-"

Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..."

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah"

Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

Quran (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."

Quran (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant."

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Quran (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place."

Quran (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew." See also the verse that follows (9:42) - "If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them"

Quran (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination."

Quran (9:88) - "But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper."

Quran (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Quran: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme."

Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

Quran (21:44) - "We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?"

Quran (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness..."

Quran (33:60-62) - "If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while. Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter."

Quran (47:3-4) - "Those who reject Allah follow vanities, while those who believe follow the truth from their lord. Thus does Allah set forth form men their lessons by similtudes. Therefore when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,"

Quran (47:35) - "Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost (Shakir: "have the upper hand") for Allah is with you,"

Quran (48:17) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom."

Quran (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"

Quran (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way" Religion of Peace, indeed! This is followed by (61:9): "He it is who has sent His Messenger (Mohammed) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam) to make it victorious over all religions even though the infidels may resist."

Quran (61:10-12) - "O ye who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty?- That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if ye but knew! He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity."

Quran (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."
 
Upvote 0

PHenry42

Newbie
Feb 3, 2011
1,108
43
✟1,527.00
Faith
Muslim
Read:

Pick me! I'm not afraid of getting burnt! I usually wouldn't bother, but you (and leftrightleftrightleft) seem genuinely interested in understanding, contrary to most here who just spam quotes without knowing or even caring. You know who you are, and I'm not going to bother engaging you.

Good day to you.
 
Upvote 0

razeontherock

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
26,546
1,480
WI
✟35,597.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Please notice I posted a list of things. JJ partially responded, but needs time to get to the rest. And it's interesting to see 2 different perspectives; I think that's important. And I think what Servant of Jesus posted does merit a response! There's really nothing personal in it. He cites Quran - or are those not in the Quran at all? Or are those bad translations? I really don't know, but I bet there are more lurkers who will learn from your response than there are people who will post.

Thanks for your input
 
Upvote 0

JJWhite

Newbie
Dec 24, 2009
2,818
95
U.S.A.
✟26,028.00
Faith
Muslim
Marital Status
Married
Qur'an 2:191 "And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter."

Should we start with this one, then?

First.. let's add the surrounding verses. That might help a bit. I used the Pickthall translation, just because it popped up first.

-----


Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. (190) And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (191) But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (192) And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers. (193) The forbidden month for the forbidden month, and forbidden things in retaliation. And one who attacketh you, attack him in like manner as he attacked you. Observe your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is with those who ward off (evil). (194) Spend your wealth for the cause of Allah, and be not cast by your own hands to ruin; and do good. Lo! Allah loveth the beneficent. (195)

----

Next step would be to give the historical context.
 
Upvote 0
S

Servant of Jesus

Guest
Read:
Good day to you.

I strongly suggest that you at least consider what Christianity has to offer: true peace, love, and, with repentance and rejection of sin, reconciliation with God through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and then hope for the future when we die and can be assured that we have a place with God in Heaven.

Imagine how different the scene would be right now in Egypt if all those involved followed the teachings of the 10 Commandments and the example of Jesus when He walked the earth.
 
Upvote 0

PHenry42

Newbie
Feb 3, 2011
1,108
43
✟1,527.00
Faith
Muslim
@razeontherock:

Oh, it's the Quran alright, but it's not like he'd know the difference if it wasn't. I don't particularly appreciate "interaction" where I'm served copypasta, replying with a wall of text to someone who doesn't care, effectively arguing against whoever wrote that copypasta, who's nowhere near. (edit: this part refers to Servant of Jesus, not you)

I've offered to interact with you though. If you want to pick specific passages from the list in #26 to discuss, I'm up for it. I won't engage him, but where you get your input for the discussion is up to you. I'd appreciate though if you could narrow the focus a little, choose which ones interest you. When we're done with them, we can go on to the next. I'd recommend though that you look up any passages you wonder about at first on your own. What's meant becomes often amazingly clearer with context, there's little point in me expending effort on something you can find out quickly and easily on your own. Here's a good Quran searching tool, it can take both verse numbers and keywords:

http ://ww w.answeringchristianity.net/quran_search.htm

(don't bother about the rest of the site, it's a substandard polemical site, but the Quransearch is good). I'd recommend Yusuf Ali's translation, it's internationally recognized as good. Five verses before to five verses after the verse in question should do (that's what I've done if I've wondered about the context of a Quran verse someone has quoted to me). That'll give you a fuller picture. If you do that, I'll address whatever verses you choose to have me address. Is that a formula that works for you?

Though, it should probably be pointed out that quoting individual Quran verses regarding war and peace can be quite deceptive, because they aren't meant to stand on their own. They are part of a consistent whole, and would be quite meaningless regarded in isolation.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Rationalt

Newbie
Oct 18, 2009
3,015
100
✟3,858.00
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

Rationalt

Newbie
Oct 18, 2009
3,015
100
✟3,858.00
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Married
So sorry to disappoint you, but I haven't disappeared!

Bruce

Wow,that is a change.I t would be real if you

pickup from your last post http://www.christianforums.com/t7532480/#post56671528
And I will add that not only does the Qur'an itself command:

"Let there be no compulsion in religion!" (2:256),



Please explain us what it means.I bet you haven't even read the 2nd chapter of quran you are quoting from.

 
Upvote 0

BruceDLimber

Baha'i
Nov 14, 2005
2,820
63
Rockville, Maryland, USA
✟25,839.00
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Wow,that is a change. It would be real if you
pickup [sic] from your last post.


Clearly I did: that's how and why I replied to you in the first place!

Bruce said:
And I will add that not only does the Qur'an itself command:
Bruce said:

"Let there be no compulsion in religion!" (2:256)


Please explain us what it means.

Just what it says: religion must be a voluntary, conscious decision, and never something forced or imposed by anyone else! Which is why, BTW, one of the central principles of my religion is Individual Investigation of Truth!

I bet you haven't even read the 2nd chapter of quran you are quoting from.

Then you're lucky I don't gamble because that's a bet you'd lose!

NOT ONLY have I read Súrih two, but I OWN the Qur'an and have read it in its entirety!

So meaning no offense, a bit less hubris and presumption just might be apropos on your part.

Peace,

Bruce
 
Upvote 0

Rationalt

Newbie
Oct 18, 2009
3,015
100
✟3,858.00
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Married
Clearly I did: that's how and why I replied to you in the first place!..

Just what it says: religion must be a voluntary, conscious decision, and never something forced or imposed by anyone else! Which is why, BTW, one of the central principles of my religion is Individual Investigation of Truth!

Lol about that Bolded part.Allah of Quran has other ideas.

2:65 And ye know of those of you who broke the Sabbath, how We said unto them: Be ye apes, despised and hated!

2:66 And We made it an example to their own and to succeeding generations, and an admonition to the Allah-fearing.

Apparently Allah (Known as Yahweh to Jews ;) ) commanded Jews to Kill a Cow but Jews refused and The Wrath of Allah came pouring down

[FONT=&quot]2.067[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]:[/FONT] And when Moses said unto his people: Lo! Allah commandeth you that ye sacrifice a cow, they said: Dost thou make game of us? He answered: Allah forbid that I should be among the foolish!

In Verse [FONT=&quot]2.091[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Allah commands Jews to believe what was sent to them before[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2.092[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Allah Is angry that Jews worshipped Cow .



One has to be extremely thick to say that this is not Compulsion.




NOT ONLY have I read Súrih two, but I OWN the Qur'an and have read it in its entirety!

So meaning no offense, a bit less hubris and presumption just might be apropos on your part.

Peace,

Bruce

I always think that it is a safe bet to assume ignorance instead of stupidity from the other person.Evidently i am wrong.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.