Islam doesn't condone terror

[PHenry42]

Is there not a disturbing resemblance between what happened in Nazi Germany during the 1930's, and what is going on right now in Iran and places like Gaza, and with Nazis and terrorist groups like Hezbollah?

Certainly. The Nazis didn't come to power because of Hitler having some demonic power of persuasion, or because of some metaphysical human weakness to be swayed by evil. They came to power because of real grievances Germans had against other countries, grievances the Nazis were able to capitalize on with their message of confrontation and belligerent nationalism.

Gaza, same thing.

 

[b&wpac7]

I find it extremely saddening, that even after the Holocaust, it only took the Jews three years to commit ethnic cleansing against another people.

Never again?

I think using a term like "ethnic cleansing" is wrong. I say this because then we have to bring more things under that header such as:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/gush.html

I think it's the wrong phrase in this context.

 

[plenary]

Is there not a disturbing resemblance between what happened in Nazi Germany during the 1930's, and what is going on right now in Iran and places like Gaza, and with Nazis and terrorist groups like Hezbollah? It seems to me that the only difference is the much greater involvement of religion today- specifically, using the Qur'an and the teachings of Islam as a justification for carrying out the heinous acts of terrorism and oppression that we experience almost every day in the world.

And national socialism was difficult to abolish, what about a religion in which apostates are put to death and world domination is the agenda...

I don't agree with the criticism about condemning a group... Because it is not the group who get's condemned, but the behavior of the group...

The problems with Muslims are not the Muslims themselves, per se, but the doctrine...

Any doctrine, which wishes to impose bondage, oppression and murder is wrong.... Regardless of the tag.... and one knows a tree by it's fruits..

And words carry power of themselves.. If people are shouting, that they want to destroy Israel or the USA, that is hatred outed, which has power of itself... And what a man soweth, he shall reap... As evil, reaps evil...

 

[PHenry42]

I think using a term like "ethnic cleansing" is wrong. I say this because then we have to bring more things under that header such as:
The Battle For Gush Etzion

Sure, that was an act of ethnic cleansing too.

Therefore?

 

[b&wpac7]

Sure, that was an act of ethnic cleansing too.

Therefore?

I think the term is inflammatory and has a tendency to stifle talk.

 

[plenary]

Sure, that was an act of ethnic cleansing too.

Therefore?

Muslims tend to always point to others in defense of their own behaviorism...

See, the Jews used ethnic cleansing, so we are allowed to do the same.. That is the rationale.

Same with the US. They bombed us, so we are allowed to bomb them back...

 

[b&wpac7]

Muslims tend to always point to others in defense of their own behaviorism...

See, the Jews used ethnic cleansing, so we are allowed to do the same.. That is the rationale.

I've spoken to him enough to know that is not what he is attempting to do. He was stating that both events were ethnic cleansing. Granted, I tend to view people leaving on their own accord and people being murdered en masse to not even be the same game much less the same ballpark, but there it is.

 

[Montalban]

I know. The point I'm trying to make is that it is worrying how much people want to overlook to try to keep this idea that Israel is perfect in every way, to the point where they will try to make excuses for anything wrong it might do.

You've got a democracy in the Middle East that isn't perfect and has called people to account in courts for wrong actions.

And they have a more freer press

Against them are a people who never wanted to co-exist and who for the most part fled into Gaza and the West Bank who have no such levels of accountability.

So every 'bad' think Israel does you hear about.

Even Egypt realised it had to live with Israel.

 

[plenary]

I've spoken to him enough to know that is not what he is attempting to do. He was stating that both events were ethnic cleansing. Granted, I tend to view people leaving on their own accord and people being murdered en masse to not even be the same game much less the same ballpark, but there it is.

It's not specific, but a general train of thought... It is one of the rationales...

And I am not indicating that every Muslim is capable of ethnic cleansing, I'm just indicating, that it is at least part of the rationale behind, for example, antisemitism...

The US and Israel are called the little and great devil (not sure which is which, don't really care, I imagin the US to be the great devil because of it's size)... This is directly related to the discourse about the US and Israel being evil in deeds....

This, coupled with Islamic doctrine (which indicates that the Christians and Jews are inherently evil, with regard to Muslims that is), means that peaceful coexisting will prove to be a challenge, at least in Europe.

 

[Montalban]

Like I said - I can research on my own.

I'm sure that you can. Why don't you present some?

Oh, that's right... there's no point...

I could easily google and post some 'evidence' to the contrary, but what difference would that make to someone who has made up his mind?

So you've prejudged the very thing you think I've done

Don't forget other people read this. Some may like to see a discussion between your good self and me on these issues.

So I don't get why you'd even bother posting - it seems that you just want to snipe and make personal observations about me/my motives.

I am still more than happy to discuss with you these issues.

It is in my faith to be open to questions

 

[Montalban]

And national socialism was difficult to abolish, what about a religion in which apostates are put to death and world domination is the agenda...

Absolutely. Islam is inherently anti-Semetic.

 

[Robban]

It's not specific, but a general train of thought... It is one of the rationales...

And I am not indicating that every Muslim is capable of ethnic cleansing, I'm just indicating, that it is at least part of the rationale behind, for example, antisemitism...

The US and Israel are called the little and great devil (not sure which is which, don't really care, I imagin the US to be the great devil because of it's size)... This is directly related to the discourse about the US and Israel being evil in deeds....

This, coupled with Islamic doctrine (which indicates that the Christians and Jews are inherently evil, with regard to Muslims that is), means that peaceful coexisting will prove to be a challenge, at least in Europe.

Muslim families that live in Europe for example, their children are not growing up in the middle east, they go in Europian secular schools, they live in another type of enviroment, Europian classmates, right across the road from me is a school, and when I look out and see them during their play breaks they seem to be getting along well together.
I maybe naive to you and others, but I cannot see it the way you and others see it, that they are out to take over Europe.
I have at times wondered why there are so many here in Sweden for example, I don,t know, they are here, we all have to live somewhere.
When I go out and quiet often meet children from muslim families I find they are very open and are a joy to talk to, kids are kids, I was in a shop this evening and a muslim woman was at the cashpoint, while her children were waiting for her to get done, they came over my way I smiled, they smiled and they were what they were, happy kids. What I,m trying to get at is, we cannot maybe make a difference in the middle east, but we can absolutely make a differnce where we are placed in the world.
Don,t you sing "This little light of mine.....".
Well I,ll leave all the big stuff to the big boys, I,ll do the little I can do and with Gods help it will make a difference.

 

[Montalban]

Muslim families that live in Europe for example, their children are not growing up in the middle east, they go in Europian secular schools, they live in another type of enviroment, Europian classmates, right across the road from me is a school, and when I look out and see them during their play breaks they seem to be getting along well together.

That's universal for childern

I maybe naive to you and others, but I cannot see it the way you and others see it, that they are out to take over Europe.

They go to secular schools in France but want to wear non-secular clothing.

It's the aim of Islam and of Christianity to spread the religion. We differ in mehtod

I have at times wondered why there are so many here in Sweden for example, I don,t know, they are here, we all have to live somewhere.
When I go out and quiet often meet children from muslim families I find they are very open and are a joy to talk to, kids are kids, I was in a shop this evening and a muslim woman was at the cashpoint, while her children were waiting for her to get done, they came over my way I smiled, they smiled and they were what they were, happy kids. What I,m trying to get at is, we cannot maybe make a difference in the middle east, but we can absolutely make a differnce where we are placed in the world.

Even Nazis had families and friends.

Joe Stalin had a wife and kids.

What you're doing is making generalisations based on a few people you've met and observed which is ironically what people accuse myself and others of doing. Only you're saying it's a representation of the group based on your observations and not based on evidence from their texts.

I accept that most people would want to live peacefully with other people.

That doesn't negate what the faith stands for.

 

[plenary]

I have at times wondered why there are so many here in Sweden for example, I don,t know, they are here, we all have to live somewhere.

Sweden? I've read an interesting article the other day, about the Swedes wanting to get complete families of the Somalian asylum seekers, complete with grandma and grandpa is that true? And they want to use genetic technology for determining whether someone is indeed family?

I myself think that Europe is much to gullible. In my country there has been mention of Somalian Muslim asylum seekers who are harassing and threatening the Christian asylum seekers... Why don't they stay in Somalia, when they want to cause trouble here?
One thing is for sure... When one sees the politics of countries nowadays, in Europe, that they hardly get consensus about some issues, which will get much harder, when Muslims will become equal in numbers...

Who says, that Muslims want freedom? I think that is one of the most underestimated problems with the Muslim doctrine... Muslims don't want freedom, they want submission to the "laws of Muhammad', which are by a long shot, not the laws of God and certainly not the same as freedom... (because of the absence of will)
All countries, who were ruled by tyrants and are predominant Mulims, have a tendency to choose Islam as one of it's pillars... And in most cases, that means absence of the secular principles... One of the few secular muslim countries is Turkey and Islam in Turkey is also making progress... (ataturk is turning in his grave...)
What if Muslims get the majority and start harassing the rest of the population, just like in Lebanon.... It's not completely unthinkable, because many Muslims hate the way the west works and one cannot read the true motives of people in this life.... (as it is possible to lie, in this life... (which is impossible in the world of spirits.))

Also, I thought is was the Turkish president who said that the "moderate Islam" does not exist, he even said the term "moderate Islam" is a dirty description... And I agree, moderate Islam does not exist... Islam is what it is, it want to subdue non-Muslims, because it is Islamic Law and it feels superior....
Regardless of the fact, that Muhammad knew nothing of God, because if he had, he would have loved his neighbor....

 

[Montalban]

What I don't get is the so-called free-thinkers making a series of personal 'just-so' statements about people being 'haters' for being against Islam and yet not engaging in a discussion based on evidence.

What they're in fact doing is making the very type of irrational and emotive hateful attacks that they think others are doing!

Ah, irony!

 

[Montalban]

What if Muslims get the majority and start harassing the rest of the population, just like in Lebanon.... It's not completely unthinkable, because many Muslims hate the way the west works and one cannot read the true motives of people in this life.... (as it is possible to lie, in this life... (which is impossible in the world of spirits.))

Just the other day a pack of adults turned up at a local school to harass and bully students - claiming that a Moslem student there was being bullied.

They decided to take the law into their own hands and then when the police arrested them others protested outside the police station

 

[Robban]

That's universal for childern

They go to secular schools in France but want to wear non-secular clothing.

It's the aim of Islam and of Christianity to spread the religion. We differ in mehtod


Even Nazis had families and friends.

Joe Stalin had a wife and kids.

What you're doing is making generalisations based on a few people you've met and observed which is ironically what people accuse myself and others of doing. Only you're saying it's a representation of the group based on your observations and not based on evidence from their texts.

I accept that most people would want to live peacefully with other people.

That doesn't negate what the faith stands for.

I am aware of the things what you have written here.
I have not lived my life in a closet.
I am aware there is a threat.
What in your texts are the horrors which have taken place for hundreds of years based upon? Like "Kiss the cross or kiss the sword", Though in the death camps it was "kiss the cross or kiss this gun".
An elderly man once said to his grandson after the war,"It feels like there are two wolves fighting in my heart, one is bitter and aggresive, the other is more mild" the grandson asked "Which one do you think will win?" The man answered "The one I feed".
Churchill I think said "It is a mistake to underestimate the enemy".
So is it a mistake for you Christians to underestimate the rest of the world, and don,t fool yourselves, thinking you know it all because you don,t. Far from it.

 

[plenary]

Well, at least most Christians know, that one cannot bargain with the devil... As can be seen, when some wanted to bargain with Hitler... That went well...

In Lebanon, when the Muslims approached 40 a 50% of the population, they made roadblocks and checked if the passengers in the cars were Christians or Jews... Well, the Jews had by that time all left, but if and when the passengers were Christian, there were shot.... So Christians couldn't drive to certain areas...
Who says, that these kind of schemes, cannot and will not occur in Europe, when Muslims get to 40 or 50 percent... Did the Lebanese Christians wrong against the Muslims? NO. Why then, did they murder them? Because they hate... Just like the title of the book of Brigitte Gabrielle.
Muslims don't care about secularism (at least a lot of them don't)... It is even possible for Turkey to revert back from the secularism. As their laws explicitly describe how the society should function inclusive the laws of the country... And which non-Muslim wants to live under sharia? No-one, because it is a backward system...Muhammad knew nothing of God, which can be seen, when one has just a little grasp of who God really is... namely Love.. Perhaps Egypt becomes an Islamic state who knows, maybe more countries in the Middle east will shed their tyrants and get even more tyrannical Islamic regimes...

The signs of oppression are already here, so are the messages to the west... But it seems like no-one want to hear... Exactly like in the second world war... The signs were there, but now-one listened and the ones who called wolf, were ignored...

What if, the Muslims want to create Islamic states in Europe, which could happen, when they get the majority... (because they love non-Muslims that much?? Non-Muslims are tolerated, not loved...) It would only mean civil war, but hey, one can't have everything in life.
The real question is, why would Muslims want to NOT create Islamic states.... Because most Muslims don't believe in secularism... Turkey is one of the only exceptions... Muslims rather choose oppression or submission like they want to call it, which it is nothing but oppression.

One can judge a tree by it's fruits... And don't forget, according to Muhammad, a Muslim should treat a non-Muslim harshly...
Europe has had the enlightenment, it may well be, that the coming century, is the century of utter darkness... Let's hope this is not the future, and if it is, only God can help us.

 

[FRM48]

I find it extremely saddening, that even after the Holocaust, it only took the Jews three years to commit ethnic cleansing against another people.

Never again?

I find it disturbing that you twist the facts ,It was the arabs that attacked the Jews.

 

[psalms 91]

I find it disturbing that you twist the facts ,It was the arabs that attacked the Jews.

Sad isnt it