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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry.
In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
ISIS' activities are horrific, but to say they are unreachable, sir, is testing the arm of God. Are you familiar with Ninevah's depravity? And yet the city repented.
Certainly, God will sort out ISIS one way or another, but my reading of Christ's message in the gospels is to pray for the repentance of these lost and wayward children. Even if we cannot see an earthly result of our travail, is this legitimate reason to do differently than our Saviour said?
There is no testing of God's reach..... these people don't care of God or of peace. Their hearts are cold and not open to receive the message of Christ.
There is much blood spilled in the Bible and yet talk of blood spilled now is outside of God's will?
Not all men are meant to be saved, its unfortunate and sad, but does that mean the saved shall do nothing while their evil hidden under the veil of their God (I do not believe all Muslims are evil, I disagree with their beliefs, but I do not believe them evil) is allowed to spread and harm innocents?
War is NOT pretty, BUT it is a part of this world. Like it or not. Yes, God CAN do whatever He wants.
But how is it that Him working through soldiers to take out and evil on this world is wrong? If it is not His will, then soldiers wouldn't be able to strike.
Should humanity have allowed Hitler to continue to do as he pleased?
Yet, the talk of annihilating a similar evil is wrong because its not a peaceful solution? Yes, it would be great if we could all sit down and come to a peace...... but its not a realistic one. Not because God can't, but because these people are extremist, (IF they even believe they are doing it for their religious beliefs) they believe themselves right and no ammount of talking is going to change their minds anymore than someone could talk you out of Christ being our savior. Because they aren't willing to hear it.
I'm not saying you don't care about the genocide victims, but all it takes for evil men to prosper, is for good men to do nothing. Personally, I would love to see the full millitary might of the United States unleashed on ISIS, and watch every last one of those murdering scumbag cowards wiped from existence. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't care if it's Christ-like or not. These vicious criminals can't hurt anyone if they're all dead.
There is no testing of God's reach..... these people don't care of God or of peace. Their hearts are cold and not open to receive the message of Christ.
There is much blood spilled in the Bible and yet talk of blood spilled now is outside of God's will?
Not all men are meant to be saved, its unfortunate and sad, but does that mean the saved shall do nothing while their evil hidden under the veil of their God (I do not believe all Muslims are evil, I disagree with their beliefs, but I do not believe them evil) is allowed to spread and harm innocents?
War is NOT pretty, BUT it is a part of this world. Like it or not. Yes, God CAN do whatever He wants.
But how is it that Him working through soldiers to take out and evil on this world is wrong? If it is not His will, then soldiers wouldn't be able to strike.
Should humanity have allowed Hitler to continue to do as he pleased?
Yet, the talk of annihilating a similar evil is wrong because its not a peaceful solution? Yes, it would be great if we could all sit down and come to a peace...... but its not a realistic one. Not because God can't, but because these people are extremist, (IF they even believe they are doing it for their religious beliefs) they believe themselves right and no ammount of talking is going to change their minds anymore than someone could talk you out of Christ being our savior. Because they aren't willing to hear it.
There's no easy answer. I can see how another Crusade would solve the problem (as it has proven in the past), but I don't see how bloodshed is compatible with Christ's message. And I don't believe that ignoring what Jesus advocated 'because it wouldn't work in this instance' is very strong; as a wise man once said, The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult and left untried.
It's a difficult situation, and both sides of the coin provide compelling supports as well as fatal and compromising flaws.
If anyone deserves to burn in hell it's ISIS. Judging by their vicious barbarity, I'm not even sure they have souls. They're feral animals, and feral animals need to be put down. Prayer and Intercession might work eventually, but bullets and ordinance work instantly. I would say a timely solution to this situation is imperative to the survival of the innocent people, who are being massacred by these ISIS cowards.
I guess we shouldn't have done anything to stop Hitler either right? Think about all of those poor concentration camp guards who died unsaved.
There's no easy answer. I can see how another Crusade would solve the problem (as it has proven in the past), but I don't see how bloodshed is compatible with Christ's message. And I don't believe that ignoring what Jesus advocated 'because it wouldn't work in this instance' is very strong; as a wise man once said, The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult; and left untried.
It's a difficult situation, and both sides of the coin provide compelling supports as well as fatal and compromising flaws.
I didn't say you ignore Christ..... Im just not an advocate to doing nothing to a group that wants to annihilate anyone that disagrees with their distorted view of religion and the world when it leads to evil and spreading.
Their hearts are hardened, while that does not mean lost forever. The preaching to a hardened heart only works when the person isn't decapitating you and those like you when they try to unharden the persons heart in an attempt to spread the message of Christ so their soul can be saved.
Do you honestly believe that the Christian way has not been tried? Why then do people go to that side of the world to missionary? You honestly believe that our soldiers in forigen lands just go crazy and kill everything that moves? You believe that aid has not been sent?
We have done pretty much everything we can do in that part of the world other than give them what they want (our blood and heads on a stick) yet, there is no shortage of these groups.
Eventually there is a point where being pushed, leads to pushing back when all other avenues have been exhausted.
There is no testing of God's reach..... these people don't care of God or of peace. Their hearts are cold and not open to receive the message of Christ.
There is much blood spilled in the Bible and yet talk of blood spilled now is outside of God's will?
Not all men are meant to be saved, its unfortunate and sad, but does that mean the saved shall do nothing while their evil hidden under the veil of their God (I do not believe all Muslims are evil, I disagree with their beliefs, but I do not believe them evil) is allowed to spread and harm innocents?
War is NOT pretty, BUT it is a part of this world. Like it or not. Yes, God CAN do whatever He wants.
But how is it that Him working through soldiers to take out and evil on this world is wrong? If it is not His will, then soldiers wouldn't be able to strike.
Should humanity have allowed Hitler to continue to do as he pleased?
Yet, the talk of annihilating a similar evil is wrong because its not a peaceful solution? Yes, it would be great if we could all sit down and come to a peace...... but its not a realistic one. Not because God can't, but because these people are extremist, (IF they even believe they are doing it for their religious beliefs) they believe themselves right and no ammount of talking is going to change their minds anymore than someone could talk you out of Christ being our savior. Because they aren't willing to hear it.
Exactly Toro. And Perhaps U.S. military intervention, and the death of these terrorists *IS* the means that God will answer all of the prayers and intercession with.
The issue itself here is no ISIS or any other group. The issue is Islam. Islam in true form is a religion, a political system, a moral system, an economic system, a military system and a conquering system.
These folks are just doing what Islam asks of them.
First of all, let me just say that this is why I thought this was a good topic to create a thread about. There are multiple intriguing points of discussion when it comes to this topic, and I think the discussion so far has been great.
I bowed out of this conversation early yesterday evening so I missed most of this discussion. I'm not sure if you will see this, but I wanted to chime in and thought this post was a good one to start with.
I really see some right on both sides of this discussion. I think on one hand, we as Christians should desire that justice be done, and clearly there is a great deal of injustice being done by ISIS at the moment. Then on the other side, I don't think we should rejoice in the downfall of our enemies either. After all, our battle is not against flesh and blood, and it's a cause for sadness that this type of injustice has occurred to the point that some type of extreme action needs to be taken in order to stop it.
So while I do think that if, in a combat or trial-and-sentence setting, some of their lives were taken, it would not unjustified, I also would be an advocate for their capture and confinement wherever it is possible. Where I definitely agree with you, LotF, is that I am certainly not in the 'Nuke 'em all!' camp. It seems as though some posts in this thread have been a bit flippant in concluding that we just need to kill them all* and I would hope that those who are tempted to think or say that would at least take a moment to consider the gravity of what that means, lest at a heart level we become like them.
If anyone deserves to burn in hell it's ISIS. Judging by their vicious barbarity, I'm not even sure they have souls. They're feral animals, and feral animals need to be put down. Prayer and Intercession might work eventually, but bullets and ordinance work instantly. I would say a timely solution to this situation is imperative to the survival of the innocent people, who are being massacred by these ISIS cowards.
I guess we shouldn't have done anything to stop Hitler either right? Think about all of those poor concentration camp guards who died unsaved.
I think there is justified anger to be felt here in regards to ISIS and I agree that a solution is necessary (though coming up with an effective one is tricky), but I also feel the need to point out that we all deserve hell, it is only by God's grace that anyone is saved from that, and it is not an occasion for rejoicing that people are going there. I actually find it concerning that you don't seem so gracious toward them (ISIS or the concentration camp guards--after all, don't forget that even in the midst of all of this practice of evil, salvation is still freely offered to them as well). They are still human beings who do have souls that have only pursued corruption. Before you get too quick to say who deserves to be in hell, just don't forget that you are in that category as well.
Certainly, God will sort out ISIS one way or another, but my reading of Christ's message in the gospels is to pray for the repentance of these lost and wayward children. Even if we cannot see an earthly result of our travail, is this legitimate reason to do differently than our Saviour said?
I agree that as we are talking about this issue, we need to be praying about it as well, which may be the most productive thing we can do in this case.
Frank Peretti wrote a couple of books called This Present Darkness and Piercing the Darkness, which basically illustrate the spiritual warfare that goes on around us. There are various angel and demon characters and occasions throughout the books where they battle. I think my favorite thing about his depiction of spiritual warfare, though, was that oftentimes the angels would talk about "the prayers of the saints" because their strength in battle was dependent upon them. I think that is applicable in this situation.
Understood and agreed. You're not the only person who wishes the Holy Father would act as the Urbans and call the faithful to battle against the infidel.
*This is the last thing I wanted to quote because I think it brings up a really thought-provoking point. Has anyone seen the movie The Kingdom?
It's basically about three American agents who go to a Middle Eastern country (Saudi Arabia I think?) to investigate a jihadist attack that took place in an American oil community. In the movie, an American reporter who is friends with one of the agents dies in the attack, and when the agent finds out and starts to cry, another walks over and whispers something in her ear.
At the end of the movie the third agent asks about what he whispered in her ear, and he says, "We're going to kill them all."
Then the movie goes back to the previous scene where the elderly leader of this jihadist group has just been shot and is close to his last breath. A young boy (I'm assuming a grandson) is sitting next to him. He brings the boy in close to comfort him and in Arabic says, "We're going to kill them all." And the movie ends.
I wasn't going to say this, but now I am. Completely wiping out the ISIS won't stop militant Islam, it'll just wipe out the ISIS.
A couple of years ago, I did a semi-intensive study about the origins of Islam in a class. I wrote a short paper about the life of Muhammad if you're interested, I'll PM it. Anyway, Islam actually started out in it's earliest days as a harmless religion. Muhammad's early relationships with Jews and Christians were very peaceful. After Muslims were removed by force from Mecca, they went to a then Jewish city, Medina and actually had a treaty with them. In fact, the earliest Muslims prayed towards Jerusalem along with the Jews. However, their fall out started when Muhammad was told by God to pray towards Mecca. Even after that occured, Christians were still allowed to pray openly in Mosques. As I mentioned early, too early on in it's days did Islam get met with militant resistance so it the religion became infused with militaristic ideas. Which is why it was so militant at the beginning, but over time most Muslims aren't militant anymore.
I think too often our approach to militant Islam is just fighting the symptoms without fighting the disease. So, we wiped ISIS from the face of the Earth, no one would argue that's a bad thing. Then what?
They're well funded, for the time being, but their organizational structure is inherently flawed. They're using conventional warfare, which is fine against an uncommitted Iraqi army. Against Kurdish fighters armed with western small arms they haven't done especially well. But they're extending themselves into a position of conventional conflict with superior western forces, and it's not a winnable proposition. Terror cell groups work because they don't have targets you can bomb, or uniformed combatants. Islamic State wants to be that conventional political body, but all that creates is an identifiable body that is poorly armed to defend itself against western military force.
They're well funded, for the time being, but their organizational structure is inherently flawed. They're using conventional warfare, which is fine against an uncommitted Iraqi army. Against Kurdish fighters armed with western small arms they haven't done especially well. But they're extending themselves into a position of conventional conflict with superior western forces, and it's not a winnable proposition. Terror cell groups work because they don't have targets you can bomb, or uniformed combatants. Islamic State wants to be that conventional political body, but all that creates is an identifiable body that is poorly armed to defend itself against western military force.
I don't know if it will make much difference, but I do wonder as well if we will eventually start seeing ISIS members flee the group because they don't want to be a part of what they are doing anymore and then leak possible future plans, strategy, etc.
ISIL is a political group who uses a hybrid of terrorism and conventional military tactics. Reducing them to just a dysfunctional bunch of radical Muslim miscreants simply following the mandates set out in Islam is ignorance and hubris on our part.
It doesn't matter whether any of us in the west recognize any type of government they install, the fact is that they have one and that's who's calling the shots in the territory that they control.
There will be a response, whether it's from NATO forces, Russia, Iran, Israel or some wild combination of all of them. Hopefully that response has minimal collateral damage and doesn't involve deploying many troops on our part.
My girlfriend cosplayed as her during FanExpo this year, and made me a Black Adam costume to compliment it. It was great (if a little too snug in certain places). We had a bunch of people want to take our picture, including our mutually favourite comic creator Adam Warren.
I don't know if it will make much difference, but I do wonder as well if we will eventually start seeing ISIS members flee the group because they don't want to be a part of what they are doing anymore and then leak possible future plans, strategy, etc.
I don't think defection will be a big issue, but large structured groups like Islamic State are more vulnerable to having operatives captured and useful intelligence being extracted. Especially by their enemies within the Muslim world.
There are some militant Christians around these parts. I know nothing of "ISIS" except that it has something to do with some Islamic group or something but some sure do seem to confuse religion and nationalism.
There are some militant Christians around these parts. I know nothing of "ISIS" except that it has something to do with some Islamic group or something but some sure do seem to confuse religion and nationalism.
Thanks. Just skimmed a wikipedia article on it, for what that is worth.
Personally, I don't care. Don't think Aussies or Yanks should even be in the area - and the region isn't ever likely to be anything but the home of some form of Islam.
What does sadden me is the rhetoric that seems to flow when these topics are brought up, ie:
"WE" are good, wholesome, saved and moral
"THEY" are evil, barbarous, unsaved and immoral
Therefore...
God probably wouldn't mind if we killed a bunch of them. For the greater good, of course.
