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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Isis

Gnarwhal

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The problem there is when you go beyond the Byzantine era you're talking about a period of European history when religion and the state are not separate entities. Frankly it's an arrangement that is contrary to the foundations of Christianity, and at that point no one was spreading Christianity anymore. Mohammed got brassed off that the Jews wouldn't do this his way and reacted violently. So yeah, I'd say that's an attempt to use violence to spread Islam.

Islam's initial path wasn't much different from Christianity's, especially during the Middle Ages and through the period of the inquisition.

Violence as a means to propagate their faith generally came after Muhammad.

How many Buddhist groups beheaded journalists last week?

Red herring and/or moving the goal posts.

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Rhamiel

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Islam's initial path wasn't much different from Christianity's, especially during the Middle Ages and through the period of the inquisition.

Violence as a means to propagate their faith generally came after Muhammad.

um........ the Middle Ages is not really "early" Christianity
there had been 33 Popes before Christianity was even legal in the Roman Empire
not the official religion, just tolerated

Islam on the other hand, started out violent
Muhhamad used violence
 
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Gnarwhal

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I realize that Rham. The base point here is that both sides have violence in their history.

And Muhammad used violence in defense, as I've already cited.

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AztecSDSU

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Islam's initial path wasn't much different from Christianity's, especially during the Middle Ages and through the period of the inquisition.

Violence as a means to propagate their faith generally came after Muhammad.



Red herring and/or moving the goal posts.

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That's just not a historically accurate view. For centuries Christianity existed within the pagan Roman Empire. There were periods of toleration and there were periods of persecution, at no point during the early church period did Christians ever use violence even to defend themselves, let alone as a means of forcing anyone to convert.
On the other hand, Mohammad's use of violence started when he was displeased that Jews in Medina were unwilling to convert to Islam. The last 10 years of his life he spent in a war with the pagan state of Mecca, eventually it was conqurered and the population forced to convert to Islam. The caliphs that followed Mohammad merely embraced his example and took it to the next logical step.

The middle ages often get a bad rap because protestants tend to use them as a means of demonizing the Catholic church. At any rate, the history of early Christianity and it's spread by evangelism is radically different from the history of early Islam and it's spread by military conquest.

The point is Islam has a pretty comfortable relationship with violence. Largely because violence is a necessary component of government control. Where other faith systems are spiritual in nature, Islam is not only a religion by a political system. Thus the relationship and comfort Islam has with violence are intrinsic aspects of the Muslim religion.
 
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Gnarwhal

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That's just not a historically accurate view. For centuries Christianity existed within the pagan Roman Empire. There were periods of toleration and there were periods of persecution, at no point during the early church period did Christians ever use violence even to defend themselves, let alone as a means of forcing anyone to convert.

I realize that. I've studied my fair share of Christian history and am a history major myself.

My point is that if you look at Islam, it isn't inherently violent - the violent conflict originated from the persecution of Muhammad and his followers in Mecca, it followed them to Medina at which point the situation evolved into a larger conflict between Medina and Mecca.

On the other hand, Mohammad's use of violence started when he was displeased that Jews in Medina were unwilling to convert to Islam. The last 10 years of his life he spent in a war with the pagan state of Mecca, eventually it was conqurered and the population forced to convert to Islam. The caliphs that followed Mohammad merely embraced his example and took it to the next logical step.

Sources please?

Because my research has shown that Muhammad was no proactively violent, only reactively so. When Muhammad and his followers lived in Mecca, prior to the Hijra, they faced persecution from the pagan Quaraish tribe. So he and his followers migrated to Medina. From that point on Medina was locked in a state of conflict with Mecca that was initiated by the pagan forces of Mecca.

Islam evolved from there to be intertwined with violence. That's my point. It didn't originate as a violent faith but grew as such because of provocation and the geopolitics of the time.

The middle ages often get a bad rap because protestants tend to use them as a means of demonizing the Catholic church. At any rate, the history of early Christianity and it's spread by evangelism is radically different from the history of early Islam and it's spread by military conquest.

I should inform you that I'm not attempting to demonize the Catholic Church. In fact, I was exploring joining the RCC or the EO last year. At any rate, I have the utmost respect an admiration for both churches and do not view the crusades or the inquisition, for example, as the fault of any of the ancient churches but a product of religious, philosophical and political motivations at the time. Though, that's neither here nor there.

My argument is that neither religion, upon it's foundation, had violence or conquest inscribed into it's theology at the core. In Christianity's case, the violence arose several centuries later. In the case of Islam, it's own relationship to conquest was much more accelerated because of it's relationship with Mecca.

The point is Islam has a pretty comfortable relationship with violence. Largely because violence is a necessary component of government control. Where other faith systems are spiritual in nature, Islam is not only a religion by a political system. Thus the relationship and comfort Islam has with violence are intrinsic aspects of the Muslim religion.

I'm not convinced that Islam itself has a "comfortable relationship with violence" as you put it. If anything, it's extremists do. In the same way that we disregard Christian extremists as not properly representing the faith, so do most Muslims when regarding extremists in their faith. I think we can offer them the common courtesy of accepting that.
 
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Gnarwhal

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Never was completely taken in by his speeches, but I can understand his reluctance to put troops on the ground.

Especially in light of how unpopular the last decision to do so was. :|
 
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Especially in light of how unpopular the last decision to do so was. :|

Correct, and considering the tendency of wars in this region to become long, drawn out and complicated. Not that all wars don't come with the possibility of those complications, but wars in the middle east that involve conflicts which cross political borders seem like they are much more likely to present such difficulties and complications. Of course, I have very limited knowledge of ISIS and the current situation in the middle east.
 
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The Outlier

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ISIS is essentially about hedonism. They live for pleasure in every way, from power struggles to rape to watching people cringe in pain to forced "conversions". You have an ideology that justifies forcing a woman into your ideology so you can add her to your harem, and then add more- or you can just dispose of her and let some other guy play with her. You need little other reason to proselytize than power. The more people you convert, the more powerful you become...that is if you are a man. And if you want to, you can torture someone to death and feel the power buzz as they cringe helplessly before you. You can justify stealing wealth from people and mask it all as holiness. Yep, thats hedonism alright- the very evil they accuse the US of taking part in.
 
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The Outlier

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^In other words, when you saw the Muslim spokesman on the news defending ISIS, he was accusing the US of doing things ISIS is doing too. He complained that we have too much sex on TV and that we kill babies, yet members of ISIS kill babies of infidels and have their own harems. It was like his entire argument was a smokecreen to cover the fact that his ideology was that of a pervert.
 
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PinkSweetart

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I'm not sure what I can discuss, other than being scared for living near the border of Mexico, and having a man come into my brother-in-laws shop saying how he lives in Mexico and knows something is, "going down".
 
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AztecSDSU

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My point is that if you look at Islam, it isn't inherently violent - the violent conflict originated from the persecution of Muhammad and his followers in Mecca, it followed them to Medina at which point the situation evolved into a larger conflict between Medina and Mecca.



Sources please?

Because my research has shown that Muhammad was no proactively violent, only reactively so. When Muhammad and his followers lived in Mecca, prior to the Hijra, they faced persecution from the pagan Quaraish tribe. So he and his followers migrated to Medina. From that point on Medina was locked in a state of conflict with Mecca that was initiated by the pagan forces of Mecca.

Christians were persecuted for centuries, violent response was never the option. Pretty much all of your early Christian figures suffered martyrdom. So on those grounds alone Christianity and Islam did not start on similar paths. Violence was Mohammed's response to pretty much everything, but then again Mohammed was a military leader before he was a Muslim. At last I checked Jesus never had an army.

Islam evolved from there to be intertwined with violence. That's my point. It didn't originate as a violent faith but grew as such because of provocation and the geopolitics of the time.

You go one place and a fight breaks out it might have been you, it might have been them. You go multiple places and a fight breaks out every time it's more than likely you. Mohammed didn't seem to be able to go anywhere without violent confrontations breaking out. To this day Muslims seem pretty incapable of co-existing peacefully with non-Muslim neighbors. Of course, that's not every Muslim. As with any mass religion nominal practice is the rule. But the element of Islam that we'd call extremist is roughly equal in size to the devout practicing population of other religions. Maybe you can practice Islam devoutly without violence, but Islam has a long an extensive history of aggressive violent action.



My argument is that neither religion, upon it's foundation, had violence or conquest inscribed into it's theology at the core. In Christianity's case, the violence arose several centuries later. In the case of Islam, it's own relationship to conquest was much more accelerated because of it's relationship with Mecca.

Sorry, but again, that's simply not a truthful observation. Christianity has no history of violent expansion or sword point conversions. The crusades were defensive military actions in the face of Islamic expansionism. The goal was never to conqueror vast tracts of the Muslim world and force the populations to become Christian again. In reality Christians would spend the centuries fending off Muslim invasion after Muslim invasion attempt. Even within the Christian world there was never an attempt by Orthodox Christians to invade western Europe and break the papacy. Nor did Catholics try to overrun the Orthodox rule and bring it under Rome.
On the flip side Islam has no history of evangelism.



I'm not convinced that Islam itself has a "comfortable relationship with violence" as you put it. If anything, it's extremists do. In the same way that we disregard Christian extremists as not properly representing the faith, so do most Muslims when regarding extremists in their faith. I think we can offer them the common courtesy of accepting that.

The thing is, again, when you say Christian extremists you're talking about the Fred Phelps types of the world. As much as I think the dude is a scum bag, he's not violent. The few incidents of violence you could talk about with Christian extremists would be the exceedingly rare incidents of abortion clinic doctors being targeted.
There's simply nothing in the Christian world that could in any valid way be compared to Islamic State, Hezbollah, Hamas, or al-Qaeda. And those are just the ones that either frequently make the news or have executed major incidents of violence. Muslims in Chechnya, India, south east Asia, and so on all have equivalent violent active terrorist groups. It doesn't seem to be an issue in any other religion.
 
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Legal_Eagle

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Islam is a perversion of God's message for the world. Why is it so surprising that the fruit of a tree grown in hate and death, yields such fruit? I have infinite sympathy for the people whom Islam has affected; turning their socio-economic hardships into a religious cult based on hatred. But the leaders of groups such as ISIS have turned their back on God and are a threat to everything that our civilization and faith stands for. Their fate was sealed long ago, much like the fate of others who have built alters to the degradation of humanity.. like the Hitler's and Stalins of the world. Relegated to the trash heap of human history. For those that use the followers of their religion to inflict so much pain on the world of Dar es Islam, you reap what you sow. Semper Fi to my brothers who are called to fight against them.
 
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Barzel

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My question: why is it I had never heard of ISIS/ISIL/IS/EE-I-EE-I-OH until we were starting to pull out of Iraq? From what I knew, the Taliban were the big bad wolves on the block, and all of a sudden it's like they're nowhere to be seen, and ISIS is the new bully in school. The timing on that isn't a "coincidence" (though it is literally coincidental, thus representing one of the stranger nuances of the English language). The more I see of the world, less I believe in accidental coincidences, but I'd like to understand why ISIS was suddenly a household name, seemingly overnight, and why the timing that coincided with our soldiers starting to come home?
 
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Zach91

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My question: why is it I had never heard of ISIS/ISIL/IS/EE-I-EE-I-OH until we were starting to pull out of Iraq? From what I knew, the Taliban were the big bad wolves on the block, and all of a sudden it's like they're nowhere to be seen, and ISIS is the new bully in school. The timing on that isn't a "coincidence" (though it is literally coincidental, thus representing one of the stranger nuances of the English language). The more I see of the world, less I believe in accidental coincidences, but I'd like to understand why ISIS was suddenly a household name, seemingly overnight, and why the timing that coincided with our soldiers starting to come home?

Because those scumbag cowards are real brave when it comes to raping and torturing women, children, and unarmed men, but for some reason they where nowhere to be seen when U.S. soldiers and Marines are around. It is because they are common thugs and cowards who only pick fights with people weaker than themselves. These little rats waited until the cat was away before they made their move.
 
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