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Isaiah 53: A Contextual Discussion

GeratTzedek

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No, Islam teaches that Isa son of Maryam/Jesus of the christianity was the Messiah but our Messiah understanting is different than yours and of christianity.
The only question is whether he is the Messiah, or annointed, as anticipated by the Hebrew Scriptures. If you take that word, Messiah, and redefine it to mean something else, then saying he is "messiah" is basically a worthless statement.

The Messiah of the Hebrew scriptures delivers Israel and brings peace and justice to all the world. Muhammed did anything but: Islam makes Jews into second class citizens and seeks to obliterate Israel as a nation, and from day one it has been a source of war in the world. Islam doesn't even WANT some sort of pro-Israel "annointed one" to come.
 
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muffler dragon

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Enormously well. I am enjoying my classes, and making new friends.

Glad to hear it. I read recently that your change caused quite the stir. Congratulations on the change.

My attendance is about to wane down to nil as my son's birth is imminent. I wish you well in your conversion if we don't happen to interact much.
 
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anatolian

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The only question is whether he is the Messiah, or annointed, as anticipated by the Hebrew Scriptures. If you take that word, Messiah, and redefine it to mean something else, then saying he is "messiah" is basically a worthless statement.
I think you must firstly learn something about the islamic Messiah consept before making such a comment.Or have you learnt? It has many similar points like the world peace, the salvation of the jews..

Islam doesnt make any nation a second class group.Islam is totally against the national discrimination but I think you mean the religious group when you use the word Jews then again I advise you to study islam a bit more...

and how do you think the world peace and justice can be established? asking your serious opinions.
 
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GeratTzedek

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Actually I studied Islam quite a bit. Would it suprise you to know I've prayed at a mosque? I've read a translation of the Q'uran cover to cover, as well as quite a bit of Islamic literature and looked into the surrounding history. Quality books are good sources of information, but I have made it a rule of thumb that when studying a religion, one must always make contact with devotees of that religion, and spend time trying to understand them. IOW, I've done my homework. There is actually a good deal in Islam that I find very beautiful and worthy of appreciation -- but I'm not willing to therefore ignore the areas of grave concern.

What you fail to understand is that the Jews are a people, a nation, whether the wolrd recognizes that status or not, whether gathered together in Eretz Ysrael, or dispersed out in the world. The land is ours forever whether we presently live on it en masse, or whether only a remnant live there, whether a few gentiles live there, or whether entire nations live there, because G-d does not break His promises.

Islam DOES make Jews into second class citizens whenever it can, and it DOES seek to irradicate the state of Isarel. Period. How can you sit there and type with {I'm assuming} a straight face and say that Islam will give equal status and toleration to a JEWISH state?

And I'm quite certain that your idea of the salvation of the Jews is simply to assimilate them into Isalm -- the reverse of what we expect of the Messiah, which is to deliver us from gentile powers seeking to impose their ways upon us.

Again, your idea is so utterly contrary to the Jewish concept of Messiah, that it is twisted for you to use that same word.

How will world peace be obtained? I have no idea. If I knew how to do it, and to do it without stifling diversity and autonomy, I suppose that would make ME the Messiah! Obviously I'm not.
 
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GeratTzedek

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Glad to hear it. I read recently that your change caused quite the stir. Congratulations on the change.

My attendance is about to wane down to nil as my son's birth is imminent. I wish you well in your conversion if we don't happen to interact much.

For a while, becuase I had things configured to go to that forum first, when I would go to get my PM's, I'd end up there and get curious and scroll down. There was a thread that went on for pages and pages and pages about my change. Some responses thoughtful or courteious, others downright rude. A lot of anti-Judaism came to light on that thread. But that's okay. The truth is I know that forum is simply not indicative of real life. Almost without fail, those in real who have had to deal with this change in me have dealt with it with great dignity and grace and kindness, even though it was rough for them.

Or... maybe I'm just real good at picking quality friends! LOL

Good luck to you with the new baby! I miss my babies. I adopt all the babies at the shul. You will have fun fun fun. Sleep when you can. LOL
 
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anatolian

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Ok, then have you learnt the islamic messiah concept?If you have done, make it clear the differences please.

Where do I fail to understand that,pls show me? And tell me also where in Quran it forbids the jews to live in Israel?

Again you're making the same mistake.What Jewish state?Do you use the term "Jewish" as a nation or as a religious group? I've asked that smple question before but haven't seen your answer in that entire post.

And I'm quite certain that your idea of the salvation of the Jews is simply to assimilate them into Islam -- the reverse of what we expect of the Messiah, which is to deliver us from gentile powers seeking to impose their ways upon us.
My friend use your logic a bit pls.God's Himself gave us Islam.So what would you expect us to claim?Surely the salvation of the "Jewish nation" is through Islam.Not through a religion which has been corrupted by men.

Again, your idea is so utterly contrary to the Jewish concept of Messiah, that it is twisted for you to use that same word.
So claim that the Islamic cocept of Messiah is different than the Jewish concept of Messiah.But do not claim Islam doesnt have a Messiah cocept

How will world peace be obtained? I have no idea. If I knew how to do it, and to do it without stifling diversity and autonomy, I suppose that would make ME the Messiah! Obviously I'm not.
Allright then.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Whoa! I forgot about this thread. We had a discussion on the Scriptures on the GT board and the LXX came up.
How well does the LXX line up with the Jewish/Hebrew translations? Shalom.

http://christianforums.com/t7048530-how-do-we-know-.html

You're quoting ACTS... written by St. Luke, not Peter, and the scriptures spoken of are the LXX.
 
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razeontherock

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d00d wants to get all self-righteous w/ perfect understanding, but can't fathom that Jesus didn't bring Himself as His own guilt offering since He was sinless?

Too sad to be laughable.
 
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razeontherock

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And ALL on the pro-Jewish side want to do nothing but stumble at the rock of offense. Hey, wasn't that prophesied by Isaiah too?

Isa 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offense to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem."

Why yes, I believe it was. So much for their "foundation of Judaism," looking down their noses at everybody else. Wait, wasn't that prophesied too?

"What mean ye [that] ye beat my people to pieces, and grind the faces of the poor? saith the Lord GOD of hosts. Isa 3:16 Moreover the LORD saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing [as] they go, and making a tinkling with their feet: Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the LORD will discover their secret parts."

"I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way [that was] not good, after their own thoughts; Isa 65:3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick; Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable [things is in] their vessels; Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These [are] a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day."
 
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The major problem is that Isaiah 53:9 infers a resurrection, something that Muhammad never did. A singular righteous servant is inferred between Isaiah 52:13 and Isaiah 53:12. As in one person. The Hebrewic language is so personal here as to lend to the fact that one could not miss this.
 
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b&wpac4

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d00d wants to get all self-righteous w/ perfect understanding, but can't fathom that Jesus didn't bring Himself as His own guilt offering since He was sinless?

The thread is two years old, so I don't think it is correct to attack people who no longer post here.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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How do you view Isaiah 26:19?
Those same greek words from the LXX are also used in Matt 12:41, 42 of the GNT/NC

[ISA] Isaiah 26:19 They shall live/rise-up, ones being dead of thee, carcass/05038 n@belah of me, they shall rise. Awake! and be jubilant ye! ones dwelling of soil, that dew-of lights dew of thee and-land healers/07496 rapha' she is casting down.

[LXX] Isaiah 26:19 anasthsontaioinekroikaiegerqhsontaioientoivmnhmeioivkaieufranqhsontaioienthghhgar drosov hparasouiamaautoivestinhdeghtwnasebwnpeseitai

anasthsontai#450 Used in Matt 12:41/1 Thess 4:16
egerqhsontai #453 Used in Matt 12:42

Matt 12:41 `Men Ninevites shall be resurrecting/ana-sthsontai <450> (5698) in the judging with the generation, this, and they shall be condemning it/her that they repent/reform into the proclamation of Jonah and Behold! more of Jonah here.

Matt 12:42 "A Queen of the south shall be being aroused/egerqhsetai <1453> (5701) in the judging with the generation, this, and shall be condemning it/her. That she came out of the ends of the land to hear the wisdom of Solomon and behold! more of Solomon here!"
 
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The servant is not. The land of the living infers Israel though.
 
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Well I think you know my take on this .
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Can ya give me a hint

The Septuagint is a useful guide created by 72 (or 70..whatever) rabbis who went up to Alexandria Egypt to translate the Tanakh into Greek. Its very helpful in understanding concepts that relate to the Brit Hadashah.

Take for instance the virgin mentioned within Isaiah 7:14. The Hebrewic word translated means "almah." While there may be question as to what this means, the rabbis that went up to Greece translated this word to mean "parthenos" in Greek. There can now be no question at all regarding the context of what the Hebrew was trying to state (besides, Dr. Michael Brown, an ANE language scholar also agrees that Almah refers to virgin in its context).
 
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b&wpac4

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The Septuagint is a useful guide created by 72 rabbis who went up to Alexandria Egypt to translate the Tanakh into Greek. Its very helpful in understanding concepts that relate to the Brit Hadashah.

The Talmud (you know, that book you like to quote out of context) states that the rabbis only translated the Torah, and then they used some specific methods that do not appear in the copy of the Septuagint that we know.

So... do you agree with the Talmud or the HELLENIZED accounts of the creation of the Septuagint?
 
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