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Isaiah 28 -PDF

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Joyous Song, Oct 22, 2020.

  1. Joyous Song

    Joyous Song Well-Known Member

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    We broke this study of Is.28 down into shorter parts on the Scripture message board if you prefer this done that way. Here we compiled the entire study into one PDF.
     

    Attached Files:

    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    A rather long ramble, with a lot of guesswork and supposition.
    Judah and Israel have not rejoined as yet. This is proved by the Blessings for when they do, as described in Ezekiel 37, not yet happened.

    Here is another view of Isaiah 28:
    Isaiah 28:1 & 3-4 Alas for the proud peoples of Ephraim, those fading flowers, drunk with prosperity. They will fall like ripe fruit and be trampled down. Hab. 3:12

    Ephraim represents the British peoples, Genesis 48:17-19, with their faded empire, but still a proud and prosperous commonwealth of nations. Deuteronomy 33:17


    Isaiah 28:2 & 5-6 The Lord has control of a powerful force, [Deuteronomy 32:22] He [what He sends, Amos 1] will beat down violently upon the earth, as a sweeping storm and a destroying tempest. On that Day, the Lord will be an adornment for the remnant of His people and will give a spirit of justice to those who judge and of valor to those who stand fast at the gate.

    This passage is paralleled by Isaiah 30:25b-30...On the Day of massacre, when fortresses fall, the sun will shine seven times stronger, like seven days in one. On that Day, the Lord will protect and save His people. See: the Lord comes from afar, His anger blazing and His doom heavy, as His arm descends in devastating fire. He sieves out the nations for destruction. But for My people, there will be songs and gladness of heart as they march to the mountains of Israel.

    The Lords Day of vengeance and wrath by a CME sunstrike is the next prophesied event. Psalms 11:4-6 and Habakkuk 3:4 describe accurately how the Lord will not be seen and this terrible judgement will be thought of as a natural event, so secular people can still choose whether they will honor God, or deny Him. Isaiah 66:15-16, Isaiah 6:10

    All those faithful Christians who have stood firm in their trust in God’s protection and who called out to Him during that Day of worldwide devastation, Joel 3:32, Acts 2:21, will be saved and will be shown the way to the cleansed and regenerated holy Land. Psalms 107, Isaiah 35:1-10, Isaiah 66:18-21, Jeremiah 31:1-40, Ezekiel 36:8-38

    Isaiah 28:7-8 These people also have lost their way and wander down strange paths, they are befuddled as with strong drink, they stumble in the Law. Both priests and prophets are incoherent, sickness and filth are everywhere. Isaiah 56:9-12

    Today, all Israel, now the Christian peoples and Judah have gone astray, the rabbi’s, priests and pastors are incompetent and fail to teach all the truths as given to us in the Bible.


    Isaiah 28:9-13 Who is there that can be taught, who makes sense of what they hear? People are like children, newly weaned, for the Word is precept upon precept, a little here, a little there. So now, with a foreign tongue, the Lord will address this people, a people that would not listen, a people to whom He once said: This is true rest, your place of repose. Therefore to them the Word has become meaningless, mere noise to them and they fall and are injured.
    Ref: REB, NIV, KJV. Abridged.


    People today have difficulty clearly discerning the Prophetic Word. One day, with a foreign tongue, that is: not in Hebrew, the Lord will speak to His people: all who acknowledge Him and keep the Commandments. All the true Christians, who will pay heed, not like those peoples who did not listen and obey their God, so long ago. Zephaniah 3:9 Note: this happens AFTER Zephaniah 3:8, the terrible Day of wrath.

    But those who do not make an effort to study the prophesies and understand the truth of God’s plan for our future, will be taken unawares and may experience some disadvantage.
     
  3. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Better look at a map.
    The blessings don't happen in one day. Give it some time.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2020
  4. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    The current map shows the Jewish State of Israel in just a tiny sliver of the area given to Abraham, for his descendants. Genesis 15:18
    The Bible plainly tells us who his descendants are. Galatians 3:26-29

    Your biased view of what happens when Judah and Israel finally do rejoin, shows that you simply haven't properly read Ezekiel 37:15-28
    The Lord will Bless them and have His sanctuary, the new Temple, in Jerusalem. All as described in Ezekiel 40 to 48
     
  5. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    It goes back to what the territory at the time of Solomon. When the split took place the ten northern tribes retained the name Israel. And the two southern tribes became Judah.
     
  6. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Why are many evangelical Christians in the U.S. telling our Brothers and Sisters in the Middle East their land belongs to those who reject Christ?


    Christians in the Holy Land:



    .
     
  7. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Cleansing the Land; all the evil neighbors will be gone:

    Deuteronomy 32:36-42 The Lord will judge His people and have compassion on His servants, for He will see that their strength has gone, all are affected. He will say: where are your false gods, those false idols in which you trusted? Let them be your protection! See now that I, the Lord, am HE – beside Me there is no other God. I hold the power of life and death. I swear: as I live forever that I will sharpen My flashing sword and set My hand to judgement to punish My enemies, then My vengeance will fall upon My foes. I shall make My arrows drunk with blood, My sword will devour flesh, the blood of the slain and the captives along with the enemy leaders.

    Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice with His people, you nations, for the Lord will avenge the blood of His servants. He will take vengeance on His enemies and punish all those who hate Him and will cleanse His peoples Land. Jeremiah 12:14


    Deuteronomy 33:1-5 This is the blessing that Moses pronounced on the Israelites before his death. The Lord came from Sinai, He appeared and shone out from the South. With Him were multitudes of His holy people, streaming along at His right hand. Truly, He loves His people and blesses His holy ones. They receive instruction, the Law that Moses gave us, as our possession for all Israel. Then, when all the tribal leaders assembled, a leader arose in the Land.

    Reference: Revised English Bible. Some verses abridged.


    The Lord will judge his people and have compassion on His servants. His servants; now every faithful Christian, they are gathered from every race, nation and language. Psalms 107, Romans 9:24-26, Revelation 7:9

    their strength has gone Isaiah 17:4-6 & 9 On that Day Israel [now the western nations] will lose their strength and prosperity. On that day, strong cities will be abandoned, like those of your enemies of old that were deserted at the Israelites approach. Cities will be uninhabitable – no food, power or water.

    those false idols in which you trusted – people today put their faith in materialism, atheism or a ‘rapture’ out of trouble, etc. Micah 5:10-15

    My vengeance will fall upon My foes – The great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, prophesied over 100 times in the Bible. It is the next action of the Lord on earth, which results in the ‘cleansing of the Land’. By the means of His ‘flashing sword ‘, an explosion of the suns surface. Isaiah 30:26a

    the enemy leaders – As the enemy leaders prepare their weapons, Isaiah 21:2 – Elam & Media = Iran, ‘they are swept away by a whirlwind ‘. Habakkuk 3:14, Psalms 83:13-17

    The Lord appears to His people – The Lord’s Right Hand, that is Jesus, Psalms 110, will lead ‘the multitude of His people’, into the promised Land in the same way as He did for the ancient Israelites. 1 Corinthians 10:4, Jeremiah 31:8-9, Isaiah 49:8-11

    they receive instruction – True prophets and priests will teach them the right Laws and the correct ordinances. Isaiah 66:21, Malachi 2:7

    Then a leader arose – Proof that all this happens before the Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign. Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11
     
  8. Joyous Song

    Joyous Song Well-Known Member

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    Joyous Song said: We broke this study of Is.28 down into shorter parts on the Scripture message board if you prefer this done that way. Here we compiled the entire study into one PDF.

    Keras said: A rather long ramble, with a lot of guesswork and supposition.

    JS: This is too vague to comment on.

    Keras: Judah and Israel have not rejoined as yet. This is proved by the Blessings for when they do, as described in Ezekiel 37, not yet happened.

    JS: agreed, that text of Is.28 states clearly as we explained that will require a great miracle for this to happen first and E’phraim needs to recover Hahalacha through studying HaShem word (D’var): precept upon precept, precept upon precept, measure upon measure, measure upon measure, a little here and little there, the they go, fall backward, are snared the taken. Is.28.13.

    Yet its not enough for the exiled Northern Tribes to recover their lost heritage, they also must become visible to Judah as well. For example, My husband and I and our family returned to Hahalacha back when our children were small. At first as that text predicted we kept hahalacha weakly, Judah would see window dressing.

    Yet twenty years later we keep Hahalacha like conservative Jews and are becoming more and more Orthodox. We done this in complete isolation which before we started and were forced into this isolation by the brothers we loved (Judah in the body), we did not know was impossible. We done this through the Grace of HaShem, praise be He, alone/

    This then is our own small miracle that we believe is being echoed with every E'phraimite, whatever tribe was their origin, whose been likewise called to return to their heritage. Even so, each one of us is still invisible to Judah and each other, both in their own countries and in the nation Israel. For us to become visible, Y’hoshua must arise.

    Keras said: Here is another view of Isaiah 28:

    Isaiah 28:1 & 3-4 Alas for the proud peoples of Ephraim, those fading flowers, drunk with prosperity. They will fall like ripe fruit and be trampled down. Hab. 3:12


    Ephraim represents the British peoples, Genesis 48:17-19, with their faded empire, but still a proud and prosperous commonwealth of nations. Deuteronomy 33:17

    JS: You are correct that some Brits are E’phraimites but that’s the tribe. However E’phraim also means the united Lost Tribes. In the text of Is.28 it the second definition that fits best as the entire tribe (except 7000) were exiled to many different nations even if eventually the individual tribe of E’phraim is in predominately Briton, Wales, and Ireland and America (through immigration).
     
  9. Joyous Song

    Joyous Song Well-Known Member

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    Karus: Isaiah 28:2 & 5-6 The Lord has control of a powerful force, [Deuteronomy 32:22] He [what He sends, Amos 1] will beat down violently upon the earth, as a sweeping storm and a destroying tempest. On that Day, the Lord will be an adornment for the remnant of His people and will give a spirit of justice to those who judge and of valor to those who stand fast at the gate.

    This passage is paralleled by Isaiah 30:25b-30...On the Day of massacre, when fortresses fall, the sun will shine seven times stronger, like seven days in one. On that Day, the Lord will protect and save His people. See: the Lord comes from afar, His anger blazing and His doom heavy, as His arm descends in devastating fire. He sieves out the nations for destruction. But for My people, there will be songs and gladness of heart as they march to the mountains of Israel.

    The Lords Day of vengeance and wrath by a CME sunstrike is the next prophesied event. Psalms 11:4-6 and Habakkuk 3:4 describe accurately how the Lord will not be seen and this terrible judgement will be thought of as a natural event, so secular people can still choose whether they will honor God, or deny Him. Isaiah 66:15-16, Isaiah 6:10

    All those faithful Christians who have stood firm in their trust in God’s protection and who called out to Him during that Day of worldwide devastation, Joel 3:32, Acts 2:21, will be saved and will be shown the way to the cleansed and regenerated holy Land. Psalms 107, Isaiah 35:1-10, Isaiah 66:18-21, Jeremiah 31:1-40, Ezekiel 36:8-38

    JS: How do these events you quote fit the time of E’phraim exile and why Judah could not teach them? Your response does not answer these questions. Thus we prefer 2Kgs.19.35 miracle. This is because that miracle is about “those who turned back the battle of the gate” another detail that seems to be missing in your interpretation, Is.28.6, is references those angels, striking down every other man before Jerusalem causing the Assyrian army to flee from the gate of Jerusalem.

    This. Is.28.5-6 then links to those in sin in 7-8, which fits Hezekiah hypocritical letter to those 7000 remaining E'phraimites. In this he clearly misunderstood the prophets and still high on that great miracle. Yet we can affirm the Temple tables were full of vomit, or the Temple sacrifices foiled, when Judah judged the virgin church, Mal.1.12-13 so that text could reference back then and 70 CE. So that text also seems to allude to that sin of Judah after HaMoshiach rose from the died.

    We did not see that part before and your post helped us see that so thank you for getting us to look closer at the passage. This however does not change how we saw:

    “Whom will teach knowledge and to whom will be explain the message? Those who are weaned from the milk, those taken from the beast? 9

    Who was weaned from HaShem’s milk but Judah who knows the Law. Even when they transgress it, they know how to make t’shuvah or return.
     
  10. Joyous Song

    Joyous Song Well-Known Member

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    Karus: Isaiah 28:7-8 These people also have lost their way and wander down strange paths, they are befuddled as with strong drink, they stumble in the Law. Both priests and prophets are incoherent, sickness and filth are everywhere. Isaiah 56:9-12

    These people are clearly Judah by context, they are being mocked, clearly, for their claim of holiness because HaShem saved them but not most of E’phraim. They further were getting drunk of foolishness understands.

    Today, all Israel, now the Christian peoples and Judah have gone astray, the rabbi’s, priests and pastors are incompetent and fail to teach all the truths as given to us in the Bible.

    JS: You are taking this out of context. This chapter is about E’phraim even though Judah actions come up, 5-10; 14-16. Indeed, each of those areas where Judah is mentioned its on context to E’phraim plight to drive home why they make poor teachers to those exiles and HaShem has a far different plan for their return

    Karus: Isaiah 28:9-13 Who is there that can be taught, who makes sense of what they hear? People are like children, newly weaned, for the Word is precept upon precept, a little here, a little there. So now, with a foreign tongue, the Lord will address this people, a people that would not listen, a people to whom He once said: This is true rest, your place of repose. Therefore to them the Word has become meaningless, mere noise to them and they fall and are injured.

    Ref: REB, NIV, KJV. Abridged.

    JS: this above “quote” maybe the reason for your confused understanding because we read that text from the Hebrew and the interpretation above is not correct according to the Hebrew text. This is how our text reads interpreted directly from Hebrew:

    “Whom will teach knowledge and to whom will be explain the message? Those who are weaned from the milk, those taken from the beast? For it is precept upon precept, precept upon precept, measure upon measure, measure upon measure, a little here, a little there. Is.28.9-10

    This is how Judah teaches Hahalacha to their children, precept are commandments and measures or rabbinical teachings. The repetition of each series, precept and measures are also indicative how Jewish children learn. This way of teaching is visible in the four questions, answered for children of different ages and understanding as regard the Passover Seder.

    “For with foreign lips and strange tongue He will speak to this people.”11

    The Hebrew word כי means “that”, “so that”, “because” or “when” and “for”. It does not mean “so now”. Further, it HaShem, praise be He, in His Son who sent Rav Sual on the path to gather the Gentiles into the Kingdom that would lead this virgin Church. It is those very Galatians you keep naming. Therefore that rest and repose was positive not negative and was given ultimately to those exiled tribes as well as all gentiles grafted in over the last two thousand years.

    Karus: People today have difficulty clearly discerning the Prophetic Word. One day, with a foreign tongue, that is: not in Hebrew, the Lord will speak to His people: all who acknowledge Him and keep the Commandments. All the true Christians, who will pay heed, not like those peoples who did not listen and obey their God, so long ago. Zephaniah 3:9 Note: this happens AFTER Zephaniah 3:8, the terrible Day of wrath.

    JS: a quick reading of Zeph.3 seems to imply this but prophecy is such all related text (all those on E’phraim return or the End Times) should be read together as much as possible. This is why we preface this study with Rev.1. In that study we clearly show a Hebrew and 1st century Jewish mindset is needed to understand Revelations. So this study is not done and maybe all of Zepaniah 3 and any other related text should be understood better as well/

    Karus: But those who do not make an effort to study the prophesies and understand the truth of God’s plan for our future, will be taken unawares and may experience some disadvantage.

    JS: This is true which is why we spend much time in trying to make sense of prophetic texts like Is.28. and Rev.1 and Zech.3-4 and 13, just to name a few. We post them here because we hope those, like you, can add to our understand as you have. Thank you especially to alerting us to Zephaniah, we seem to have overlooked that book on E’phraim and Israel and will turn our eyes too this book after we complete the work we are doing right now.
     
  11. Joyous Song

    Joyous Song Well-Known Member

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    Keras said: Judah and Israel have not rejoined as yet.

    Douggg said: Better look at a map.

    Keras: This is proved by the Blessings for when they do, as described in Ezekiel 37, not yet happened.

    Douggg said: The blessings don't happen in one day. Give it some time.

    Js: The view that prophecy that E’phraim has returned has already happened does not match the teaching of the Talmud:


    Rabbi Akiva says, “The ten tribes will not return, as the verse says (Deuteronomy 29:27), ‘And the L‐rd uprooted them from upon their land, with fury, anger and great wrath, and He cast them to another land, as it is this day.’ Just as a day passes and it will never return, so too, they will be exiled never to return.”

    Rabbi Eliezer says, “Just like a day is followed by darkness, and the light later returns, so too, although it will become ‘dark’ for the ten tribes, G‐d will ultimately take them out of their darkness.” (Talmud, Sanhedrin 110b.)

    Rabbi Shimon ben Yehudah, of the town of Acco, says in the name of Rabbi Shimon: “If their deeds are as this day’s, they will not return; otherwise they shall.” (Talmud, ibid. See also Jerusalem Talmud, Sanhedrin 10:5.)


    All three rabbis spoke after E’phraim’s exile, two coexisted with HaMoshiach, so they knew E’phraim had yet returned by 70CE. Rabbi Akiva lost hope, Rabbi Eliezer probably knew enough of the Sacred Scriptures to know that E’phraim would go into darkness, be taught by men of foreign lips and alien tongues before finding their way back to Hahalacha, though not exactly how. Rabbi Shimon ben Yehudah seems to be reconciling the two views, and basing E’phraim return on their behavior.
     
  12. Joyous Song

    Joyous Song Well-Known Member

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    Douggg said: Better look at a map.

    Keras said: The current map shows the Jewish State of Israel in just a tiny sliver of the area given to Abraham, for his descendants. Genesis 15:18

    The Bible plainly tells us who his descendants are. Galatians 3:26-29


    JS: True enough yet exactly how did these gentiles become Israel? Not because they replace the Lost Tribes or Judah (this second claim is antisemitic). Is.28 clearly explains how, those Strange lips and Alien tongues (those Galatians and Romans etc....) spoke to E’phraim giving them rest and repose along side Faith. That is what connected them to Israel and made them part of Israel as well and gave them a place in our family

    Keras said: Your biased view of what happens when Judah and Israel finally do rejoin, shows that you simply haven't properly read Ezekiel 37:15-28

    He needs to understand this text in reference to the dry bones and two very different joining of the sticks and how the first century joined sticks differ from the end time joined sticks. For example, the stick of Joseph in the end times is clearly in the “hands of E’phraim”.
     
  13. Joyous Song

    Joyous Song Well-Known Member

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    keras said: The current map shows the Jewish State of Israel in just a tiny sliver of the area given to Abraham, for his descendants. Genesis 15:18

    The Bible plainly tells us who his descendants are. Galatians 3:26-29

    Doug: It goes back to what the territory at the time of Solomon. When the split took place the ten northern tribes retained the name Israel. And the two southern tribes became Judah.

    JS: True, plus that small remnant of E’phraim that remained after the rest of the Northern Tribe was exiled. All modern Jews descend from these tribes and are now the Tribe of Judah or the Tribe of Jacob as well.

    However the bulk of Israel was exiled to many different nations. Thus in the first century Christ bound the early Jewish body (stick) with the stick of Yosef (HaShem will add) and the house of Israel associated with them. When we ask “Can you show me what you mean by theses?” by that first century union; He will take the stick of Yosef (which is in the hand of E’phraim) and the tribes of Israel associated with him and unite it to Judah and those associated with him. .

    In two thousand years time Christian nations have become, in the eyes of the orthodox Jews, Israel in exile, those ten tribes in exile in modern nations. Further this unity seems to come from the Tribes of Israel which is in E’phraim hand
     
  14. Joyous Song

    Joyous Song Well-Known Member

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    Doug said: It goes back to what the territory at the time of Solomon. When the split took place the ten northern tribes retained the name Israel. And the two southern tribes became Judah.

    Keras: Why are many evangelical Christians in the U.S. telling our Brothers and Sisters in the Middle East their land belongs to those who reject Christ?

    JS: The gifts ad the call are irrevocable, Rom.11.29! Judah was never condemned for reject a gentile looking Messiah with a Greek name! Mal.1.11-12


    From the rising of the sun to its setting My Name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered in My Name and a pure offering for My Name is great among the nations, says HaShem. But you profane it by saying, 'The Lord's table is defiled,' and, 'Its food is contemptible.


    This is why Judah was condemned and why they lost their Temple. They judge and condemned the virgin body’s sacrifices. Because they did not understand those “foreign lips and alien tongues” (that group Paul spoke to in Galatians) would bring E’phraim back while reaching the Gospel to the world and ignored “he who believes will not be in haste”.

    Therefore we in the body should not judge them as they long ago judged us for Paul also warned us:


    That is true, they were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not be proud, but stand in awe. For if G-d did not spare the natural branches neither will He spare you....Just as you were once disobedient to G-d but now receive mercy because of their disobedience, so they have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they may also find mercy. Rom.11.20-21, 30-31
     
  15. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    We, of the ten Northern tribes, do not become Jewish, need to perform their rites or speak their language.
    On the contrary, they must learn from us or they will not be allowed back into the holy Land. Jeremiah 12:14 tells this plainly.
    Isaiah 28:5-6 has nothing to do with the Assyrian army demise in Hezekiah's time. Did the Lord become a Blessing to the remnant of His people, then? Or in 70 AD?
    Like most, you simply fail to see how the Jewish State of Israel will be no more after the Sixth Seal devastation and depopulation of the entire Middle East. Zephaniah 1:1-18, Isaiah 22:1-14, Romans 9:27
    This is patently incorrect.
    The modern Jewish people come from many ethnicities. They have no actual proof of any descent from Jacob. They simply claim it, but there is is actual historical proof of the Ashkenazi Jews being from the Kazar peoples and the Falashas from Ethiopia are just refugees, who do some Jewish rites in order to get a better life in Israel.
    Yes; but irrevocable ONLY to those who accept Jesus as the One sent by God. See Ezekiel 20:34-38 and Isaiah 35:8-10
    There is no redemption for those who fail to become Christian now.
     
  16. Joyous Song

    Joyous Song Well-Known Member

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    Joyous Song said: Yet its not enough for the exiled Northern Tribes to recover their lost heritage, they also must become visible to Judah as well. For example, My husband and I and our family returned to Hahalacha back when our children were small. At first as that text predicted we kept hahalacha weakly, Judah would see window dressing.

    Keras: We, of the ten Northern tribes, do not become Jewish, need to perform their rites or speak their language. On the contrary, they must learn from us or they will not be allowed back into the holy Land. Jeremiah 12:14 tells this plainly.

    JS: You are correct those who have not felt in their bones to awaken their Hebrew Heritage will not take up Hahalacha, however some who do feel that call, will. As for Judah “learn from us” is absurd assertion however many fail to realize why.yet the Christ of the twentieth century looks nothing like what He did when He came. And as we explained in The Bridge, Christ Jesus did not fulfill, when He came, everything Judah attributed to Him. Therefore, the Christian Messiah is not Judah’s at least nothing Judah would recognize.

    Besides last I checked Judah is back in the holy land and Joel is clear, Judah will never be exiled again. A few Jews might be but the entire tribe will remain in the holy land till E’phraim comes home and the Moshiach returns.

    We can also see two potential meaning of Jer.12.14. First its already happened when Babylon came down. Or it could be in His Return. Today Judah dwells in northern Israel, or the land of E’phraim as well in part of their own lands in the south. These northern lands belonged to, Asher and Manasseh. Syria has the rest of our land as does Palestine. Perhaps those wicked one are unrighteous Arab terrorist that are trying to push Judah into the sea.

    Yet once He plucks them out, Judah up out of that part of Israel likely sending them south, He will have compassion upon Judah as well as Israel. He will then return us to our heritage,נננ נחל, nachal which means to “seize” or “take possession”, “to inherit”, “to get”. Its not the land, etz, because that follows. So we see inheritance is Hahalacha, it does not only belong to Judah. The teaching upon the seat of Moshe were for all Israel, not only Judah.


    Joyous Song said: Is.28.5-6 then links to those in sin in 7-8, which fits Hezekiah hypocritical letter to those 7000 remaining E'phraimites.

    Keras: Isaiah 28:5-6 has nothing to do with the Assyrian army demise in Hezekiah's time. Did the Lord become a Blessing to the remnant of His people, then? Or in 70 AD?

    JS: Its in the context! Its not any miracle at any gate but Judah’s miracle at Jerusalem gate.This fits context. It also fits the judgment that came down, the statement Judah cannot teach E’phraim and why and who would become E’phraim’s teacher. Further, you are pointing a finger when you own interpretation did not link back to any detail with Is.28.


    Joyous Song said: Who was weaned from HaShem’s milk but Judah who knows the Law. Even when they transgress it, they know how to make t’shuvah or return.

    Keras: Like most, you simply fail to see how the Jewish State of Israel will be no more after the Sixth Seal devastation and depopulation of the entire Middle East. Zephaniah 1:1-18, Isaiah 22:1-14, Romans 9:27

    JS: Since when is the sixth seal about the State of Israel?

    To us, its the Tribes of E’phraim that falls because those falling stars, 6.13, are explained by Jude 1.12 - 13: as the blemishes on the Love Feast, or fallen away Christians. And yes Judah is a reference but only in context of those falling stars “as” or “like” the fig tree sheds it fruit, or like Judah faced two thousand years ago when Rome came down upon them and they lost their Temple (also Babylon). This too gives a clue why these stars or Christens face.

    As for the symbolism of that seal this is the traditional language (see Joel) or symbolism of a nation of G-d, measured and facing judgment. It is not the judgment, that comes in chapter 8 and 9. This is the warning of those coming judgments, and is followed by that falling away by those preferring peace and security to truth.

    Then everyone big and small, rich and poor, slave or free trying to find ways out of accepting the unacceptable and end up saying (Unwise bridesmaids), “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him Who is seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb”. As Judah is looking for a Lion, its Christianity that sees a Lamb!

    JS: True, plus that small remnant of E’phraim that remained after the rest of the Northern Tribe was exiled. All modern Jews descend from these tribes and are now the Tribe of Judah or the Tribe of Jacob as well.

    Keras: This is patently incorrect.

    The modern Jewish people come from many ethnicities. They have no actual proof of any descent from Jacob. They simply claim it, but there is is actual historical proof of the Ashkenazi Jews being from the Kazar peoples and the Falashas from Ethiopia are just refugees, who do some Jewish rites in order to get a better life in Israel.

    JS: Don’t worry, when E’phraim returns to Israel to join their brother there, our own heritage will come from ethnicities, and wouldn’t you know, it will be our keeping of Hahalacha that defines us not our genes. We’ll also come home with brothers not keeping Hahalacha following Zeru’babel but that is another study.

    Joyous Song said: The gifts ad the call are irrevocable, Rom.11.29! Judah was never condemned for reject a gentile looking Messiah with a Greek name! Mal.1.11-12

    Keras: Yes; but irrevocable ONLY to those who accept Jesus as the One sent by God. See Ezekiel 20:34-38 and Isaiah 35:8-10

    There is no redemption for those who fail to become Christian now.

    JS: Irrevocable means that which cannot be revoked, recalled, or undone, or unalterable according to Webster’s Dictionary. Also it is interesting that earlier in this post you stated we do not “need to perform their rites (Judah’s) or speak their language. On the contrary, they must learn from us...” and we are Christians.

    Yet that text was written after the earlier Church was told to make those things Jewish enemies of the Gospel ushering in the Parting of Way Theology. Only after he said that did He also say: “gifts and the call are irrevocable” clearly linking back to the statement those things Jewish were to become enemies to the Gospel for the Gentiles sake (not HaShem’s)!

    But as regards election, they are beloved for their forefathers sake- period. So please do not judge our brothers in J
     
  17. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Bible prophecy is clear: the entire holy Land will be cleared and cleansed. Only a few Messianic Jews will survive by hiding underground. Isaiah 29:1-4, Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Zephaniah 1:1-18, Jeremiah 10:18, +
    This will happen on the Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath; the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, but centered on the Middle east. Zephaniah 2:1-12, Isaiah 22:1-14
    This scripture refers to all of Jacobs descendants. Mostly the House of Israel, the ten Northern tribes, still scattered among the nations.
    Ezekiel 20:34-38 is the best prophecy about when all of Abrahams descendants come back to the holy Land; those people the Israelites of God; ALL accepted by their faith in the Lord alone. Ethnicity has nothing to do with it, but the majority will honor God's Promise to the Patriarchs.
     
  18. Joyous Song

    Joyous Song Well-Known Member

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    Joyous Song said: Besides last I checked Judah is back in the holy land and Joel is clear, Judah will never be exiled again. A few Jews might be but the entire tribe will remain in the holy land till E’phraim comes home and the Moshiach returns.

    Karus: Bible prophecy is clear: the entire holy Land will be cleared and cleansed. Only a few Messianic Jews will survive by hiding underground. Isaiah 29:1-4, Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Zephaniah 1:1-18, Jeremiah 10:18, +
    This will happen on the Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath; the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, but centered on the Middle east. Zephaniah 2:1-12, Isaiah 22:1-14

    JS: First that prophecy found in Is.29.1-4 is Ariel, the symbolic name of Jerusalem. So even if that passage is of the end times it only referencing Zech.14.1-2 where only a part of Judah is exiled. Duet.32.34-43 is most likely a former time, and Zephaniah 1:1-18 sounds like history as well as there are no longer kings in Judah or the Holy Temple within Jerusalem today. Jer.1-18 is the same, that was Babylon coming down.

    Still I can see modern Israel perhaps in Zeph.2.1-12 this maybe the end times but its also Jerusalem which again Zechariah confirms. Judah, the tribe will never face another Babylon or Roman captivity and exile according to Joel (2.18-27), but Jerusalem will. Clearly, why else would the nations just before the end, after those witnesses die march to mount Middego, northern of Israel, unless Jew were there on that mountain to meet them and Cry out, “Blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the L-rd” when Christ is in the clouds?

    Joyous Song said: But as regards election, they are beloved for their forefathers sake- period. So please do not judge our brothers in J

    Karus: This scripture refers to all of Jacobs descendants. Mostly the House of Israel, the ten Northern tribes, still scattered among the nations.

    JS: Not according to context, that “but” refers back to those who became “enemies to the Gospels for your sake (the gentiles/Roman sake)”. Ephraim was exiled for over 300 years by then and already greatly scattered and absorbed.

    Further, this is a mystery that requires humility, 25, and what follows is also links back to Judah. Still its also true those gifts and call upon Judah also rests upon Ephraim if they want to be seen as Judah’s younger brother and not as Goyim. So in another sense, it rests upon all Israel when they are joined as one as well but at that time this text was written the only visible descendants Paul would be referencing was Judah.

    Karus: Ezekiel 20:34-38 is the best prophecy about when all of Abraham's descendants come back to the holy Land; those people the Israelites of God; ALL accepted by their faith in the Lord alone. Ethnicity has nothing to do with it, but the majority will honor God's Promise to the Patriarchs.

    JS: This passage above is of Ephraim return, but this return is also connected to Judah, in Ez.37. There the first century’s unity between Jews (House of Judah, and all Israel associated with him) and gentiles (The House of Joseph (The stick of Ephraim) and all those associated with him), 16, are mentioned. When we ask: “Will you not show me what you mean by this”, 18, HaShem, praise be He, will once again bring unity between the brothers.

    Yet this time that unity starts with Ephraim, (the stick of Joseph (which is in the hand of Ephraim) and the tribes of Israel associated with him) and the Stick of Judah and make theses one. There are two important changes to the earlier text. First, this time that unity seems to be in Ephraim’s hand, or control, and these are those tribes associated with him.

    Ephraim today can be located through archaeological evidence and Biblical clues. Tribes now are visible as leading or in some cases majority members of several western and a few eastern nations. Even as Judah within the body has become visible as a distinct tribe. Judah on the other hand is just Judah (No Jew today calls himself “of the tribe of Benjamin” or any other tribe as Paul did back when he wrote) because today Jews are Jews whatever tribe they originally came into Judah from.

    Fact is, the end time prophecies above in Ezekiel you quoted, would never had happened if all Jews had accepted Christ Jesus as their Moshiach back when He came. This is because the only way for Ez.20.34-38 to come to pass is where we recover what was lost, 43. We also had to bring in non Hebrews whose names were written in the Book of Life.

    What could we recover what was lost? Those measures of those precepts, Is,28.13, that our brothers in Judah codified thousands of years ago in Yevnah, gleaning these one by one from the precepts found in the Bible. They did this and still thriving against the many pogroms and murderous acts of those who should have known better, Matt.6.12, 7.1-5, 18.10-14, 23-35 and Rom.11.17-22.

    Indeed there are numerous passages where Christians are warned not to judge those blind, We are even warned to be very careful judging each other, Gal.6.1-10! This is because even though we are under grace we do not always see clearly and in consequence judge unwisely:

    For now we see into the mirror dimly, but then face to Face. Now I know in part; then I will understand fully, even as I have been filly understood. So faith, hope and love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.” 1 Cor.13-12-13

    The Greatest is Love, love of brother, neighbor and even our enemies. Christ gave us a higher bar and then grace and mercy (if we in turn give mercy) to hep bare these burdens.
     
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