Isaac or Ishmael?

PurelyIslam · Dec 20, 2004

markie said:
Why would that degrade Him? Sometimes I wonder if you all think loves you.

I assume you mean if you all think Allah loves you...if that is what u meant then allow me to say we ought not to make a less estimate of God's Power and Greatness beacuse what we know of His mercy and Forgiveness...if you say God is all about Love then why does He punish those who disobey Him?! Islam teaches a human to strike the best balance between the hope in Allah's mercy and love which is greater than any other love and the fear of gaining His wrath and anger which is greater than any other wrath..

Kris_J · Dec 20, 2004

Muslim said:
We do not have one similar to that the Nicene Creed, but Islamic beliefs are centered on practices which are described as pilars. The 5 most imporant pillars and these pillars are what make up Islam: Believing in one God and that Muhammad is the Messenger of God, Prayer 5 times a day, Charity, Pilgrimage to Mecca atleast once in a lifetime if the person can afford it, and Fasting during the month of Ramadan. After that there are many more minor pillars which constitute Islamic beliefs. Such as Modesty, Jihad, seeking knowledge, etc.

Hmmm... Not too many of those can be said about what Jesus preached. How can Jesus be a Muslim if He didn't value those like a Muslim should?

Montalban · Dec 21, 2004

Muslim said:
Muslims do not believe that Satan was an angel. We believe he was of an entirely different race of beings called Jinns. Satan was the father of all Jinns and because of the level of piety that he had, God elevated him to the status of angels and allowed him to walk around freely in heaven like the other angels. But he is by no means an angel. He does not posess the qualities of an angel such as their lack of free will. Angels cannot disobey God. It is not possible for them to do otherwise then what is commanded of them from God. When God told the angels to bow down before Adam, all of them did. But Satan didn't because he had the ability to choose and he chose to disobey God due to his pride. He felt that since Adam was made from dirt and he was made from a smokeless fire, that he was the superior being and therefore should not have to bow down to Adam.

Holy Quran
Chapter 2, Verse 34. And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith.

And those Jews who over 2,000 years randomly edited the Old Testament so as to distort the truth (yet someohow left in bits about Muhammed) managed to remove every single reference to Jinns!

But Jinns/Angels form an interesting case of Koranic confusion
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/qi010a3.html

"I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me.
-- Sura 51:56

Many are the Jinns and men We have made for Hell: ....
-- Sura 7:179

It would be no problem to say that all of them were created to worship and serve God, but because they have free will and some or many decided to disobey they will be punished in Hell. But to state that many were made for Hell is an obvious contradictions to the first statement - or else we must conclude that they were created in order to serve Allah in Hell, but this would require a serious shift in the understanding of the meaning of Hell as well as the issue of justice in who is sent to hell."
http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/qi031.html
Also see:
"Messengers Amongst the Jinns and Angels?"
http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/jinn_messengers.html

azri · Dec 21, 2004

[font=Verdana,Arial]7:179 Many are the Jinns and men we have made for Hell: They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay more misguided: for they are heedless (of warning).[/font]

Montalban · Dec 21, 2004

azri said:
[font=Verdana,Arial]7:179 Many are the Jinns and men we have made for Hell: They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay more misguided: for they are heedless (of warning).[/font]

Indeed, that's what the article suggested. These people/jinns are pre-ordained for hell.

Thus there's no 'free will'.

azri · Dec 21, 2004

.......

Montalban · Dec 21, 2004

azri said:
.......

Nice!

And that also contradicts 'compulsion'.

azri · Dec 21, 2004

Who force u to be Orthodox?

Bevlina · Dec 21, 2004

azri said:
Who force u to be Orthodox?

Nobody forces anybody to be any belief azri.

Montalban · Dec 21, 2004

azri said:
Who force u to be Orthodox?

I became Orthodox firstly through my own extensive ( ) reading of the works of early christian writers such as St. Clement of Rome and St. Ignatius of Antioch. In one sense, my own reasoning forced me to Orthodoxy.

Who forced you to be a Muslim?

azri · Dec 21, 2004

Montalban said:
I became Orthodox firstly through my own extensive ( ) reading of the works of early christian writers such as St. Clement of Rome and St. Ignatius of Antioch. In one sense, my own reasoning forced me to Orthodoxy.

You have the power to choose.

Muslim · Dec 21, 2004

Montalban said:
And those Jews who over 2,000 years randomly edited the Old Testament so as to distort the truth (yet someohow left in bits about Muhammed) managed to remove every single reference to Jinns!

But Jinns/Angels form an interesting case of Koranic confusion
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/qi010a3.html

"I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me.
-- Sura 51:56

Many are the Jinns and men We have made for Hell: ....
-- Sura 7:179

It would be no problem to say that all of them were created to worship and serve God, but because they have free will and some or many decided to disobey they will be punished in Hell. But to state that many were made for Hell is an obvious contradictions to the first statement - or else we must conclude that they were created in order to serve Allah in Hell, but this would require a serious shift in the understanding of the meaning of Hell as well as the issue of justice in who is sent to hell."
http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/qi031.html
Also see:
"Messengers Amongst the Jinns and Angels?"
http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/jinn_messengers.html

That is not a contradiction by any means. God is stating that he has created men and jinns to only for the purpose of worshipping him but most of them that were created have earned themselves a seat in hell. They disobeyed God, it is not God who failed them.

Holy Quran
Chapter 103: Verse 1. By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),

2. Verily Man is in loss,

3. Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.

Montalban · Dec 21, 2004

azri said:
You have the power to choose.

Do you?

azri · Dec 21, 2004

Thus there's 'free will'.

Montalban · Dec 21, 2004

azri said:
Thus there's 'free will'.

I'll assume this means you do believe in free will as you're not prone to a 'yes' or 'no' answer.

That then contradicts the Islamic teachings that some men and jinn are made for hell. They are created for punishment.

That's just Al-lah being cruel. I've not even begun to comment on Muhammed's cruelty.

azri · Dec 21, 2004

They are created for punishment.

Why?

Montalban · Dec 21, 2004

Muslim said:
That is not a contradiction by any means. God is stating that he has created men and jinns to only for the purpose of worshipping him but most of them that were created have earned themselves a seat in hell. They disobeyed God, it is not God who failed them.

Holy Quran
Chapter 103: Verse 1. By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),

2. Verily Man is in loss,

3. Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.

That is a contradiction. If he's created men who's function is already determined then there's no free will.

You can't progam a robot to weld a series of bolts and when it does nothing but this claim it has a will of its own.

You've reduced men to machines; acting as according to a program

Montalban · Dec 21, 2004

azri said:
Why?

You're a man of very few words... but not 'yes' or 'no'

I don't know why you believe al-lah made some for hell (see Muslim's quotes; some made for worship, others not)

azri · Dec 21, 2004

Yes. I belive Allah is The All Knower.

markie · Dec 21, 2004

Muslim said:
Muslims do not believe that Satan was an angel. We believe he was of an entirely different race of beings called Jinns. Satan was the father of all Jinns and because of the level of piety that he had, God elevated him to the status of angels and allowed him to walk around freely in heaven like the other angels. But he is by no means an angel. He does not posess the qualities of an angel such as their lack of free will. Angels cannot disobey God. It is not possible for them to do otherwise then what is commanded of them from God. When God told the angels to bow down before Adam, all of them did. But Satan didn't because he had the ability to choose and he chose to disobey God due to his pride. He felt that since Adam was made from dirt and he was made from a smokeless fire, that he was the superior being and therefore should not have to bow down to Adam.

Holy Quran
Chapter 2, Verse 34. And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith.

Did Allah create Satan without freedom of will or with it? If God commanded the angels to bow before Adam and Adam was a man why do you think it's wrong to worship Jesus? Do Muslims really think the Christian trinity consists of the Father, Mother and Son.

Isaac or Ishmael?

in Love with Islam..

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