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Montalban said:Genesis 22:9, Hebrews 11:17, and James 2:21 are verses you need to look at.
What convenant? (See Appendix)
Do you read your posts to see if they make sense? A covenant fulfulled by Jesus is a covenant fulfilled by Jesus. You can't say 'the covnenatn is fufilled, but here comes covenant mk2"
What covenant? WHy are you back to Muhammed being an example for all mankind? Will you keep to a story?
How did they 'know' this when you calim that the Old Testament has been so distorted so as not to claim that the prophet will be from Ishamel. You really really really need to check your posts before you contradict your own beliefs.
The one's that are corrupted so as not to mention Muhammed?
So?
So? All you are doing is confirming by your own beliefs that al-lah made a convenant with the Jews.
So, in summary your argument is this....
Al-lah made a convenant with Ishamel, proven by you quoting verses that show a covenant with the Jews (NOT the Arabs).
That one Jew, an expert in corrupted scriptures was able to predict the birth of Muhammed as some fulfillment of prophecy even though you claim the scriputres have been so distored so as not to claim any such thing.... and proven by your verses above which have nothing to do with Ishmael's decendants anyway. That's really some doing! Also, that even though the Bible doesn't say the covenant goes to Ishamael, you believe it does. The fact that it doesn't mention it, is obviously because it's been changed. It's like archaelogists digging into the earth, finding nothing and delcarling a lost civilisation had disapeared!
Ishmael in the Koran... What covenant?
Surah Al-Baqarah Ayah [125]
And (remember) when We made the House (the Ka'bah at Makkah) a place of resort for mankind and a place of safety. And take you (people) the Maqam (place) of Ibrahim (Abraham) [or the stone on which Ibrahim (Abraham) stood while he was building the Ka'bah] as a place of prayer (for some of your prayers, e.g. two Rak'at after the Tawaf of the Ka'bah at Makkah), and We commanded Ibrahim (Abraham) and Isma'il (Ishmael) that they should purify My House (the Ka'bah at Makkah) for those who are circumambulating it, or staying (I'tikaf), or bowing or prostrating themselves (there, in prayer).
Surah Al-Baqarah Ayah [127]
And (remember) when Ibrahim (Abraham) and (his son) Isma'il (Ishmael) were raising the foundations of the House (the Ka'bah at Makkah), (saying), "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us. Verily! You are the All-Hearer, the All-Knower."
Surah Al-Baqarah Ayah [133]
Or were you witnesses when death approached Ya'qub (Jacob)? When he said unto his sons, "What will you worship after me?" They said, "We shall worship your Ilah (God - Allah), the Ilah (God) of your fathers, Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), One Ilah (God), and to Him we submit (in Islam)."
Surah Al-Baqarah Ayah [136]
Say (O Muslims), "We believe in Allah and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Ya'qub (Jacob), and to Al-Asbat [the twelve sons of Ya'qub (Jacob)], and that which has been given to Musa (Moses) and 'Iesa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islam)."
Surah Al-Baqarah Ayah [140]
Or say you that Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Ya'qub (Jacob) and Al-Asbat [the twelve sons of Ya'qub (Jacob)] were Jews or Christians? Say, "Do you know better or does Allah (knows better...; that they all were Muslims)? And who is more unjust than he who conceals the testimony [i.e. to believe in Prophet Muhammad Peace be upon him when he comes, written in their Books. (See Verse 7:157)] he has from Allah? And Allah is not unaware of what you do."
Surah Al-'Imran Ayah [84]
Say (O Muhammad ): "We believe in Allah and in what has been sent down to us, and what was sent down to Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Ya'qub (Jacob) and Al-Asbat [the twelve sons of Ya'qub (Jacob)] and what was given to Musa (Moses), 'Iesa (Jesus) and the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between one another among them and to Him (Allah) we have submitted (in Islam)."
Surah An-Nisa Ayah [163]
Verily, We have inspired you (O Muhammad )as We inspired Nuh (Noah) and the Prophets after him; We (also) inspired Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Ya'qub (Jacob), and AlAsbat [the twelve sons of Ya'qub (Jacob)], 'Iesa (Jesus), Ayub (Job), Yunus (Jonah), Harun (Aaron), and Sulaiman (Solomon), and to Dawud (David) We gave the Zabur (Psalms).
Surah Al-An'am Ayah [86]
And Isma'il (Ishmael) and Al-Yas'a (Elisha), and Yunus (Jonah) and Lout (Lot), and each one of them We preferred above the 'Alamin (mankind and jinns) (of their times).
Surah Ibrahim Ayah [39]
"All the praises and thanks be to Allah, Who has given me in old age Isma'il (Ishmael) and Ishaque (Isaac). Verily! My Lord is indeed the All-Hearer of invocations.
Surah Maryam Ayah [54]
And mention in the Book (the Qur'an) Isma'il (Ishmael). Verily! He was true to what he promised, and he was a Messenger, (and) a Prophet.
Surah Al-Anbiya Ayah [85]
And (remember) Isma'il (Ishmael), and Idris (Enoch) and Dhul-Kifl (Isaiah), all were from among As-Sabirin (the patient ones, etc.).
Surah Saad Ayah [48]
And remember Isma'il (Ishmael), AlYasa'a (Elisha), and Dhul-Kifl (Isaiah), all are among the bes
The closest to a covenant is Ishmael was true to what he promised (Sura Maryam 19:54).... promised whom?
Kind of like you said in one of your threads that some rocks or lines or somrthing on the moon proved that Mohammed split it. Somebody can say something is evidence of whatever they wannt, that doesn'tt mean it is or that event really happened.Muslim said:Again I'm asking you the question, how does an alter depicting Isaac being sacrificed prove that it was him who was sacrificed by Abraham? This alter was not around during the time of Abraham so you can't use this as evidence. If I created an alter today depicting Ishmael being sacrificed and then thousands of years from now if archeologists discovered it, would you believe that it was Ishmael who was sacrificed? See my point? Anyone can create an alter after the fact, it still doesn't prove anything.
markie said:Kind of like you said in one of your threads that some rocks or lines or somrthing on the moon proved that Mohammed split it. Somebody can say something is evidence of whatever they wannt, that doesn'tt mean it is or that event really happened.
Kris_J said:To Muslim posters: Just wondering if you have an equivalent of the Nicene/Apoltles Creed for Islam? That might help clarify what it is to be a Muslim & if indeed Jesus can be seen as one.
No! You said that the Bible was distorted, that the truth of the message was distorted, and yet somehow through all this distortion you claim some Jewish bloke was able to sort through it all, and recognise that Muhammad IS the promised prophet... based on what texts? It would be good if we can look at these texts to see how he came to that conclusion. How he did anyway, considering that the Bible's been distorted is amazing in itselfMuslim said:I never claimed that the verses in the Bible prophesizing the prophet Muhammad's arrival were taken out completely. I said that they were there and that Christians were not realizing it.
You claimed that there was a covenant with Ishmael. Where? It's not in the Bible, and it's not in the Koran (at least I can't find it, but I'd be happy to look at any verses you have). Your only source for the relationship between Ishmael and his kin is from the Bible. (and the Koran which just says that he was a prophet... it just states this, nothing more - but again my knowledge of the Koran is not as extensive as yours. You now want to use a book you claim is faulty. I and many others have already shown you the Bible verses show that the covenant (according to the Bible is NOT with Ishmael, who was the child out of the promised union). My last post showing you this shows that he was not considered a son, because "my only son" refers to his brother.Muslim said:If you want me to I can post the verses in the OT which prove that there was also a covenant with the decedents of Ishmael and that God had transferred his kingdom from the decedents of Isaac to the decedents of Ishmael.
It's odd then that you debate Christianity without knowing a key feature of it's dogma.Muslim said:I am not familiar with that creed. If you could explain it to me further I might be able to answer your question.
(most) Christians for example share a set of core beliefs that are understood to be uncompromised in defining a Christian (see Nicene Creed for this forum). Do you have a similar Creed amongst yourselves that can be examined?Muslim said:I am not familiar with that creed. If you could explain it to me further I might be able to answer your question.
Kris_J said:(most) Christians for example share a set of core beliefs that are understood to be uncompromised in defining a Christian (see Nicene Creed for this forum). Do you have a similar Creed amongst yourselves that can be examined?
We do not have one similar to that the Nicene Creed, but Islamic beliefs are centered on practices which are described as pilars. The 5 most imporant pillars and these pillars are what make up Islam: Believing in one God and that Muhammad is the Messenger of God, Prayer 5 times a day, Charity, Pilgrimage to Mecca atleast once in a lifetime if the person can afford it, and Fasting during the month of Ramadan. After that there are many more minor pillars which constitute Islamic beliefs. Such as Modesty, Jihad, seeking knowledge, etc.Kris_J said:(most) Christians for example share a set of core beliefs that are understood to be uncompromised in defining a Christian (see Nicene Creed for this forum). Do you have a similar Creed amongst yourselves that can be examined?
[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]" Aqeeda refers to the way in which we understand our faith. For example the Muslims, the Jews and the Christians believe in God. The adherents of these three faiths differ on the understanding of a particular article of faith, i.e. belief in One God. The Muslims believe in one God who is not begotten, nor begets and nothing is unto like Him, the Jews believe that the same God bore resemblance to us (e.g. had a wrestling match with Jacob and lost as cited in the Old Testament). The Christians believe that God had a son, the third member of the Divine Trinity, and that the supposed Son of God lost the fight against the Jews (in compliance with the Jewish perspective), who used the Romans to crucify him."[/font]
"He not only created time and space, but He is transcendentally beyond them, such that He cannot be in a place, He cannot be everywhere, and He cannot be nowhere.Muslim said:I had not read through the whole thing so I did not see that portion. I'm sorry if was misrepresenting your beliefs. Here is a better link. It breaks up into different sections for the 5 basic pillars of belief.
Kris_J said:"He not only created time and space, but He is transcendentally beyond them, such that He cannot be in a place, He cannot be everywhere, and He cannot be nowhere.
Above is an excerpt from your link. Are you saying that according to Muslims, God is incapable of taking human form? A bit limiting of God's capabilities isn't it?
Its just like saying God can be bad or evil.Are you saying that according to Muslims, God is incapable of taking human form? A bit limiting of God's capabilities isn't it?
GOD is capable of everything, the point is he does not need to take human form.He does not need to be in his creation, that degrades him to be part of his creation.He sits on the throne and rules.He does not need our permission to do anything and he does not need family aroung him especially human family.Kris_J said:"He not only created time and space, but He is transcendentally beyond them, such that He cannot be in a place, He cannot be everywhere, and He cannot be nowhere.
Above is an excerpt from your link. Are you saying that according to Muslims, God is incapable of taking human form? A bit limiting of God's capabilities isn't it?
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