Isaac or Ishmael?

Many would even vow Abraham and hagar were not married ,they would rather slander them as Adulterers rather than accept Ismael.
Just as they want to deny anything in the Bbile what so ever that mentions the Coming Of the prophet mohammed (peace be upon him), they would do anything to cut that link between him and Ismael.

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Wow. Pot let me introduce you to kettle, kettle this is the pot!
Yeah it is kind of funny that people only want to accept those parts of the Bible that agree with their ideas.
tulc(excuse me my irony meter just exploded!)

Muslim said:

So you agree that Ishmael was included in the covenant with Isaac?

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The covenant of Abraham had spiritual implications more than it was a physical covenant. Actually I think he established it with Noah in Genesis 6:18 but it could have come through any one of Noah's sons. In Genesis 9:13 God tells Noah more about it, I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant (between me and the earth). God told Abraham it would be through his seed and then He told him which seed it would come through. In 17:2 And I will make my covenant between me and the, and will multiply the exceedingly. Abraham will get the land from the river of Egypt, probably the Nile, to the Euphrates. IIn 17:21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year. God has fulfilled his part of the covenant. Jesus Christ is the covenant.
http://www.anycities.com/jahtruth/scriptur.htm I don't agree with everything on this website because they were Gnostics and they were some strange people, but I agree with this part.
God states in Genesis 49:22-24 (king James A.V. of The Bible) that from Joseph will come The Shepherd - The Stone of Israel (Christ, on His Second-Coming) NOT from the Jews, as is clearly stated in Genesis chapter 49...
Jesus said, "I am The Way, the Truth and the Life" and "no man comes to the Father except by me." The Covenant is called "The Way" in The Torah and Jesus was saying that he was a living demonstration of it (The Way) in action, demonstrating how YOU have to be if YOU want to survive and go home to Father. We have perfect harmony between the two "Songs", The "Song" of Moses and The "Song" of The Lamb (Christ).
The covenant of Abraham is to be with the Father, Jesus Christ said he is the covenant, or more accurately the way to the covenant. The new testament, which is the new song tells us how to stay on the right track.

Bevlina said:

I still say, you muslims would argue with God.
I am trying to tell you that we have the archeological evidence to prove the Bible is the absolute truth. And yet, you will still say the opposite.

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Again I'm asking you the question, how does an alter depicting Isaac being sacrificed prove that it was him who was sacrificed by Abraham? This alter was not around during the time of Abraham so you can't use this as evidence. If I created an alter today depicting Ishmael being sacrificed and then thousands of years from now if archeologists discovered it, would you believe that it was Ishmael who was sacrificed? See my point? Anyone can create an alter after the fact, it still doesn't prove anything.

Kris_J said:

Having read most of the posts, it seems that I'd much rather have people of no vested interest in whether it was Isaac or Ishmael who was sacrificed.

Is it safe to assume that most of you here believe in an inerrant Bible or Quran? I believe the most credible & balanced view would come from a well versed liberal Christian & Muslim.

Of those who post here: How many sincerely believe that the Quran or Bible that you believe in is not inerrant?

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As much as Christians want to say we're right and you don't know anything because you're not a Christian, the bible has been corrupted to a certain extent but not near as much as the Muslims claim, unless they just forgot to put it in the concordances. The Koran is saying some of the same things so that part is true but whether the Muslims want to admit it or not the Koran has been corrupted. I don't know about Mohammed but either the Koran has been corrupted or it was corrupted when he got it or the scribes that wrote it corrupted his message. If nothing else they need to believe that Jesus is the son of God and He died and was resurrected. Mohammed possibly was the prophet from God and his message was corrupted. That's from that website posted above and even if it is a Gnostic website they probably knew something anyway.

markie said:

As much as Christians want to say we're right and you don't know anything because you're not a Christian, the bible has been corrupted to a certain extent but not near as much as the Muslims claim, unless they just forgot to put it in the concordances. The Koran is saying some of the same things so that part is true but whether the Muslims want to admit it or not the Koran has been corrupted. I don't know about Mohammed but either the Koran has been corrupted or it was corrupted when he got it or the scribes that wrote it corrupted his message. If nothing else they need to believe that Jesus is the son of God and He died and was resurrected. Mohammed possibly was the prophet from God and his message was corrupted. That's from that website posted above and even if it is a Gnostic website they probably knew something anyway.

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Good thing you are honest markie, yes the bible has been corrupted to as certain extent.that extent is enough to prove it can no longer be taken as a source of of reliable reference concerning Jesus and his teaching.As you look in to the bible you see that extent you are talking about gets bigger.Where does it stop. When you see that the word of GOD has been corruputed to an extent do you still use it as a means of Reference, knowing it is no longer a reliable source.So shifting the blame on the Quran does not not malke things any better. It is like a teacher at school tells you that you are not doing good, rather than going to learn and improve you tell the teacher he is no good.pepoel will go round and round in circles to disprove of any bbile corruption what so ever rather thatn go and look into it.Those who look saw it and found the truth.Why deny yourself the truth.

Muslim said:

God gave the revelation to the Jews, but the Jews betrayed their convenant with God and slayed the prophets and changed the words written in their scriptures. That does not mean that God could not have stopped them. God let them do this because he was going to safeguard the Quran.

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I think it was the people of Mecca who changed your book. The pagans changed the Koran. Either that or his message was copied down wrong if in fact he was a prophet.

The reason the Muslims here seem so obstinate is because they are descendant from Ishmael. They need to show why the mantle of prophethood has been passed to them, by retrospectively propping up the claim of Ishamel.

According to pp23-24 of my Islamic Catechism* there are 25 prophets recognised by Islam;**
1. Adam
2. Idris (apparently Enoch)
3. Noah
4. Hud (??)***
5. Salih (??)
6. Abraham
7. Lot
8. Ismael
9. Isaac
10. Jacob
11. Joseph
12. Job
13. Shu'ayb (apparently Jethro)
14. Moses
15. Aron
16. David
17. Solomon
18. Ellias
19. Elisha
20. Jonah
21. Ezekiel
22. Zachariah
23. John the Baptist
24. Jesus
and
25. Muhammed.

So they establish Ishmael as a 'prophet' so that Arabs are descendant of a 'prophet'. The problem with this, is that al-lah obviously didn't recognise any convenant with the Arabs, because prophets 9 through to 24 he kepts sending to the Jews! (that is until out of the blue, the Arabs of Mecca-Medina who had nothing to do with Judaism, suddenly get #25 the 'best' and greatest prophet !?!?

If there was a convenant with the Arabs (and they obviously didn't follow his message - or else Muhammed would not have been needed), then why didn't al-lah send anyone to the Arabs? It sounds a bit like the Mormons trying to account for 'lost tribes' and so on.




*Memet Soymen, (trans. Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu) (1991), "Consice Islamic Catechism", The Directorate of Religious Affairs; Turkey

**some names may vary as the publication I have was printed in Turkey.

***Everytime I look up Prophet Hud there's mention of Prophet Nuh, where he fits into this I don't yet know.

Montalban said:

The reason the Muslims here seem so obstinate is because they are descendant from Ishmael. They need to show why the mantle of prophethood has been passed to them, by retrospectively propping up the claim of Ishamel.

According to pp23-24 of my Islamic Catechism* there are 25 prophets recognised by Islam;**
1. Adam
2. Idris (apparently Enoch)
3. Noah
4. Hud (??)***
5. Salih (??)
6. Abraham
7. Lot
8. Ismael
9. Isaac
10. Jacob
11. Joseph
12. Job
13. Shu'ayb (apparently Jethro)
14. Moses
15. Aron
16. David
17. Solomon
18. Ellias
19. Elisha
20. Jonah
21. Ezekiel
22. Zachariah
23. John the Baptist
24. Jesus
and
25. Muhammed.

So they establish Ishmael as a 'prophet' so that Arabs are descendant of a 'prophet'. The problem with this, is that al-lah obviously didn't recognise any convenant with the Arabs, because prophets 9 through to 24 he kepts sending to the Jews! (that is until out of the blue, the Arabs of Mecca-Medina who had nothing to do with Judaism, suddenly get #25 the 'best' and greatest prophet !?!?

If there was a convenant with the Arabs (and they obviously didn't follow his message - or else Muhammed would not have been needed), then why didn't al-lah send anyone to the Arabs? It sounds a bit like the Mormons trying to account for 'lost tribes' and so on.




*Memet Soymen, (trans. Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu) (1991), "Consice Islamic Catechism", The Directorate of Religious Affairs; Turkey

**some names may vary as the publication I have was printed in Turkey.

***Everytime I look up Prophet Hud there's mention of Prophet Nuh, where he fits into this I don't yet know.

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At last they let the cat out of the bag, he admits that all other prophets came out of the Jews one only from the Muslims.This is the core of their hatredfor the prophet mohammed why he was not from them.Even aboo Jahl accepted that had he been from the smae clan as the prpohet mohamed(peace be upon him ) he would have accepted him. So the Jealousy stems from there that he was sent to the Arabs and niot the Jews.Allah says in the Quran that he sent to every nation a prophet. So what the fuss about sent a prophet to Arabia. The Arab pagans and Jews and Christians were in darkness and GOD sent them light.

Montalban said:

The reason the Muslims here seem so obstinate is because they are descendant from Ishmael. They need to show why the mantle of prophethood has been passed to them, by retrospectively propping up the claim of Ishamel.

According to pp23-24 of my Islamic Catechism* there are 25 prophets recognised by Islam;**
1. Adam
2. Idris (apparently Enoch)
3. Noah
4. Hud (??)***
5. Salih (??)
6. Abraham
7. Lot
8. Ismael
9. Isaac
10. Jacob
11. Joseph
12. Job
13. Shu'ayb (apparently Jethro)
14. Moses
15. Aron
16. David
17. Solomon
18. Ellias
19. Elisha
20. Jonah
21. Ezekiel
22. Zachariah
23. John the Baptist
24. Jesus
and
25. Muhammed.

So they establish Ishmael as a 'prophet' so that Arabs are descendant of a 'prophet'. The problem with this, is that al-lah obviously didn't recognise any convenant with the Arabs, because prophets 9 through to 24 he kepts sending to the Jews! (that is until out of the blue, the Arabs of Mecca-Medina who had nothing to do with Judaism, suddenly get #25 the 'best' and greatest prophet !?!?

If there was a convenant with the Arabs (and they obviously didn't follow his message - or else Muhammed would not have been needed), then why didn't al-lah send anyone to the Arabs? It sounds a bit like the Mormons trying to account for 'lost tribes' and so on.




*Memet Soymen, (trans. Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu) (1991), "Consice Islamic Catechism", The Directorate of Religious Affairs; Turkey

**some names may vary as the publication I have was printed in Turkey.

***Everytime I look up Prophet Hud there's mention of Prophet Nuh, where he fits into this I don't yet know.

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Because the covenant with the Arabs was not to be fulfilled until the arrival of the prophet Muhammad. God had promised that he would fulfill his covenant with both the decendents of Isaac and the decendents of Ismael. The covenant with the decendents of Isaac was fulfilled first through the Children of Israel. They received many prophets but after a while they began to turn away from the straight path. They took to doing all sorts of evil and began slaying their prophets as well. So God sent Jesus as the final messenger to them to bring them to the straight path but they rejected him as well and tried to slay him. So God then fulfilled his covenant with the decendents of Ismael by sending the prophet Muhammad, but the difference is that while the prophet Muhammad was decended from Ismael, he was sent to all of mankind. The main reason why the jews of Arabia did not accept the prophet Muhammad is because he was not from them. They knew that he would be of Ismael's offpsring but once he arrived they could not take it upon themselves to believe in him due to him being Arab.

Amongst the citizens of Mecca were several Jews, one of whom was knowledgeable of the scriptures. He knew from his learning and the signs of the time that the birth of a new prophet was imminent and anxiously awaited his arrival. On the night Prophet Muhammad, (sa) was born, a strange feeling came over him that prompted him to rush to the door of his house and ask some Koraysh tribesmen, who happened to be passing, if they had heard of any births that night. The tribesmen replied that they knew of none, so he asked them to go and find out then bring word to him. He felt sure that this was the night in which the new prophet had been born, and if his feelings were correct he knew he would indeed be able to recognize him by a special, prominent mark on his skin that lay between his shoulders. Sometime later, the tribesmen returned to the expectant Jew and told him that a son had indeed been born to Lady Amina, the widowed wife of Abdullah, son of Abd Al Muttalib. The Jew asked them to take him to see the newly born and his mother, so in haste they made their way to Abu Talib's house. When they arrived, Lady Amina presented her darling son to them and as the cloth that covered him was gently rolled back the Jew saw the unmistakable mark and fainted. When he regained consciousness he announced the prophethood had been taken away from the Children of Israel and said, "O people of Koraysh, by Allah, he will conquer you in a way that the news will traverse both east and west." The mark the Jew referred to was circular and read, "There is no god except Allah, and Muhammad is His Prophet", and it was from this identifying mark that the sweet aroma of musk exuded.

Holy Quran
Chapter 61, Verse 6. And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of an Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!"

Chapter 5, Verses 70. We took the covenant of the Children of Israel and sent them apostles, every time, there came to them an apostle with what they themselves desired not - some (of these) they called impostors, and some they (go so far as to) slay.

71. They thought there would be no trial (or punishment); so they became blind and deaf; yet Allah (in mercy) turned to them; yet again many of them became blind and deaf. But Allah sees well all that they do.

Chapter 3, Verses 183. They (also) said: "(Allah) took our promise not to believe in an apostle unless He showed us a sacrifice consumed by Fire (From heaven)." Say: "There came to you apostles before me, with clear Signs and even with what ye ask for: why then did ye slay them, if ye speak the truth?"

184. Then if they reject thee, so were rejected apostles before thee, who came with Clear Signs, Books of dark prophecies, and the Book of Enlightenment.

Chapter 4, Verse 155. (They have incurred divine displeasure): In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of Allah. that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah.s Word; We need no more)";- Nay, Allah hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little is it they believe;-

Kris_J said:

*Cough* Not far from what Mormon's used to believe that having dark skin was as the mark Cain.

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Amazing what mormons and muslims share in common actually.

Kris_J said:

*Cough* Not far from what Mormon's used to believe that having dark skin was as the mark Cain.

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Once again your comments are astounding. So what? That you can bring up a number of mistaken beliefs does not negate a mistaken belief. It's not like maths (a negative and a negative)

saiful-Islam-Khattab said:

At last they let the cat out of the bag, he admits that all other prophets came out of the Jews one only from the Muslims.This is the core of their hatredfor the prophet mohammed why he was not from them.Even aboo Jahl accepted that had he been from the smae clan as the prpohet mohamed(peace be upon him ) he would have accepted him. So the Jealousy stems from there that he was sent to the Arabs and niot the Jews.Allah says in the Quran that he sent to every nation a prophet. So what the fuss about sent a prophet to Arabia. The Arab pagans and Jews and Christians were in darkness and GOD sent them light.

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Is it your intent to spam the thread with distortion? I said according to my Islamic Catechism. I am not a Muslim, I am putting forward what YOU claim. The rest of your post re: jealousy is some kind of weird projection.

Bevlina said:

Amazing what mormons and muslims share in common actually.

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They don't Islam is the Religion of the one true GOD period! Mormonism is an ISM, Islam is a way of life more than a religion.Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and MormonISM does not come anywhere near that.may be only resemblence is the belief in polygamy that is all. there is no comparison between Islam and any other religion

Genesis 22:9, Hebrews 11:17, and James 2:21 are verses you need to look at.

Muslim said:

Because the covenant with the Arabs was not to be fulfilled until the arrival of the prophet Muhammad.

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What convenant? (See Appendix)

Muslim said:

God had promised that he would fulfill his covenant with both the decendents of Isaac and the decendents of Ismael. The covenant with the decendents of Isaac was fulfilled first through the Children of Israel. They received many prophets but after a while they began to turn away from the straight path. They took to doing all sorts of evil and began slaying their prophets as well. So God sent Jesus as the final messenger to them to bring them to the straight path but they rejected him as well and tried to slay him.

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Do you read your posts to see if they make sense? A covenant fulfulled by Jesus is a covenant fulfilled by Jesus. You can't say 'the covnenatn is fufilled, but here comes covenant mk2"

Muslim said:

So God then fulfilled his covenant with the decendents of Ismael by sending the prophet Muhammad, but the difference is that while the prophet Muhammad was decended from Ismael, he was sent to all of mankind.

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What covenant? WHy are you back to Muhammed being an example for all mankind? Will you keep to a story?

Muslim said:

The main reason why the jews of Arabia did not accept the prophet Muhammad is because he was not from them. They knew that he would be of Ismael's offpsring but once he arrived they could not take it upon themselves to believe in him due to him being Arab.

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How did they 'know' this when you calim that the Old Testament has been so distorted so as not to claim that the prophet will be from Ishamel. You really really really need to check your posts before you contradict your own beliefs.

Muslim said:

Amongst the citizens of Mecca were several Jews, one of whom was knowledgeable of the scriptures.

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The one's that are corrupted so as not to mention Muhammed?

Muslim said:

Chapter 5, Verses 70. We took the covenant of the Children of Israel and sent them apostles, every time, there came to them an apostle with what they themselves desired not - some (of these) they called impostors, and some they (go so far as to) slay.

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So?

Muslim said:

71. They thought there would be no trial (or punishment); so they became blind and deaf; yet Allah (in mercy) turned to them; yet again many of them became blind and deaf. But Allah sees well all that they do.

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So? All you are doing is confirming by your own beliefs that al-lah made a convenant with the Jews.

Muslim said:

Chapter 3, Verses 183. They (also) said: "(Allah) took our promise not to believe in an apostle unless He showed us a sacrifice consumed by Fire (From heaven)." Say: "There came to you apostles before me, with clear Signs and even with what ye ask for: why then did ye slay them, if ye speak the truth?"
184. Then if they reject thee, so were rejected apostles before thee, who came with Clear Signs, Books of dark prophecies, and the Book of Enlightenment.

Chapter 4, Verse 155. (They have incurred divine displeasure): In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of Allah. that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah.s Word; We need no more)";- Nay, Allah hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little is it they believe;-

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So, in summary your argument is this....
Al-lah made a convenant with Ishamel, proven by you quoting verses that show a covenant with the Jews (NOT the Arabs).
That one Jew, an expert in corrupted scriptures was able to predict the birth of Muhammed as some fulfillment of prophecy even though you claim the scriputres have been so distored so as not to claim any such thing.... and proven by your verses above which have nothing to do with Ishmael's decendants anyway. That's really some doing! Also, that even though the Bible doesn't say the covenant goes to Ishamael, you believe it does. The fact that it doesn't mention it, is obviously because it's been changed. It's like archaelogists digging into the earth, finding nothing and delcarling a lost civilisation had disapeared!


Ishmael in the Koran... What covenant?
Surah Al-Baqarah Ayah [125]
And (remember) when We made the House (the Ka'bah at Makkah) a place of resort for mankind and a place of safety. And take you (people) the Maqam (place) of Ibrahim (Abraham) [or the stone on which Ibrahim (Abraham) stood while he was building the Ka'bah] as a place of prayer (for some of your prayers, e.g. two Rak'at after the Tawaf of the Ka'bah at Makkah), and We commanded Ibrahim (Abraham) and Isma'il (Ishmael) that they should purify My House (the Ka'bah at Makkah) for those who are circumambulating it, or staying (I'tikaf), or bowing or prostrating themselves (there, in prayer).

Surah Al-Baqarah Ayah [127]
And (remember) when Ibrahim (Abraham) and (his son) Isma'il (Ishmael) were raising the foundations of the House (the Ka'bah at Makkah), (saying), "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us. Verily! You are the All-Hearer, the All-Knower."

Surah Al-Baqarah Ayah [133]
Or were you witnesses when death approached Ya'qub (Jacob)? When he said unto his sons, "What will you worship after me?" They said, "We shall worship your Ilah (God - Allah), the Ilah (God) of your fathers, Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), One Ilah (God), and to Him we submit (in Islam)."

Surah Al-Baqarah Ayah [136]
Say (O Muslims), "We believe in Allah and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Ya'qub (Jacob), and to Al-Asbat [the twelve sons of Ya'qub (Jacob)], and that which has been given to Musa (Moses) and 'Iesa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islam)."

Surah Al-Baqarah Ayah [140]
Or say you that Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Ya'qub (Jacob) and Al-Asbat [the twelve sons of Ya'qub (Jacob)] were Jews or Christians? Say, "Do you know better or does Allah (knows better...; that they all were Muslims)? And who is more unjust than he who conceals the testimony [i.e. to believe in Prophet Muhammad Peace be upon him when he comes, written in their Books. (See Verse 7:157)] he has from Allah? And Allah is not unaware of what you do."

Surah Al-'Imran Ayah [84]
Say (O Muhammad ): "We believe in Allah and in what has been sent down to us, and what was sent down to Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Ya'qub (Jacob) and Al-Asbat [the twelve sons of Ya'qub (Jacob)] and what was given to Musa (Moses), 'Iesa (Jesus) and the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between one another among them and to Him (Allah) we have submitted (in Islam)."

Surah An-Nisa Ayah [163]
Verily, We have inspired you (O Muhammad )as We inspired Nuh (Noah) and the Prophets after him; We (also) inspired Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Ya'qub (Jacob), and AlAsbat [the twelve sons of Ya'qub (Jacob)], 'Iesa (Jesus), Ayub (Job), Yunus (Jonah), Harun (Aaron), and Sulaiman (Solomon), and to Dawud (David) We gave the Zabur (Psalms).

Surah Al-An'am Ayah [86]
And Isma'il (Ishmael) and Al-Yas'a (Elisha), and Yunus (Jonah) and Lout (Lot), and each one of them We preferred above the 'Alamin (mankind and jinns) (of their times).

Surah Ibrahim Ayah [39]
"All the praises and thanks be to Allah, Who has given me in old age Isma'il (Ishmael) and Ishaque (Isaac). Verily! My Lord is indeed the All-Hearer of invocations.

Surah Maryam Ayah [54]
And mention in the Book (the Qur'an) Isma'il (Ishmael). Verily! He was true to what he promised, and he was a Messenger, (and) a Prophet.

Surah Al-Anbiya Ayah [85]
And (remember) Isma'il (Ishmael), and Idris (Enoch) and Dhul-Kifl (Isaiah), all were from among As-Sabirin (the patient ones, etc.).

Surah Saad Ayah [48]
And remember Isma'il (Ishmael), AlYasa'a (Elisha), and Dhul-Kifl (Isaiah), all are among the bes

The closest to a covenant is Ishmael was true to what he promised (Sura Maryam 19:54).... promised whom?