Is Your Message Relevant?

[simonthezealot]

Romans 7:
7 What[SIZE=+0] shall we say[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] then[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]? Is the law[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] sin[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]? God forbid[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]. Nay[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], I had[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] not[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] known[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] sin[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], but[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] by[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] the law[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]: for[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] I had[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] not[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] known[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] lust[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], except[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] the law[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] had said[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], Thou shalt[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] not[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] covet[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]. [/SIZE]
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.


11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Well this looks like a personal debate between 2 posters so LLOJ unsubscribes......

 

[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

Romans 5:20
Moreover[SIZE=+0] the law[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] entered[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], that[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] the offence[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] might abound[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]. But[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] where[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] sin[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] abounded[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], grace[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] did much more abound[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]: [/SIZE]

I do believe Paul's argument here revolves around the innefficiency of the law to get the job done.

Not to mention: God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Love not law. Grace not law. Mercy not law.

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[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

Romans 7:
7 What[SIZE=+0] shall we say[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] then[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]? Is the law[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] sin[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]? God forbid[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]. Nay[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], I had[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] not[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] known[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] sin[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], but[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] by[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] the law[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]: for[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] I had[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] not[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] known[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] lust[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], except[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] the law[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] had said[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], Thou shalt[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] not[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] covet[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]. [/SIZE]
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.


11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Again, dear brother, Paul's showing the weakness of the law, not the strength of it. Note v. 1 of ch. 7 -- "Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law) that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?" v. 4 -- "Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to DIE TO THE LAW through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to ANOTHER, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God." v. 6 -- "But now we have been RELEASED from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter."

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[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

Well this looks like a personal debate between 2 posters so LLOJ unsubscribes......

Oh, come now. Jump in anytime you wish.

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[LittleLambofJesus]

Oh, come now. Jump in anytime you wish.

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Nah.....you 2 are doing a fine job though

Matthew 21:31 Which out of the two did the will of the Father"? they say to Him 'the first.' Is saying to them Jesus 'verily I am saying to ye, that the tribute-gatherers and the prostitutes/pornai <4204> preceding ye into the kingdom of the God,

Revelation 22:15 Without the dogs and the sorcerers and the prostitutes/pornoi <4205> and the murderers and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a Falsehood . [#4205 10 times, only in the Epistles and Revelation]

 

[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

Nah.....you 2 are doing a fine job though

Matthew 21:31 Which out of the two did the will of the Father"? they say to Him 'the first.' Is saying to them Jesus 'verily I am saying to ye, that the tribute-gatherers and the prostitutes/pornai <4204> preceding ye into the kingdom of the God,

Revelation 22:15 Without the dogs and the sorcerers and the prostitutes/pornoi <4205> and the murderers and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a Falsehood . [#4205 10 times, only in the Epistles and Revelation]

Perhaps thou ist out of toucheth sincest thou hasn't been to churcheth in a year of fortnights!

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[LittleLambofJesus]

Perhaps thou ist out of toucheth sincest thou hasn't been to churcheth in a year of fortnights!

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Perhaps.........

 

[simonthezealot]

I'm not sure about a heart broken by a conviciton of sin. I've seen good moral people come to Christ that didn't really have an overt sin problem, other than the nature they were born with. They simply recognized they needed something outside of themselves to be right with God. The truth is there are people at all kinds of different points and levels of life. Some of them would never respond to John MacArthur but they would to Rob Bell. And vice versa.

Good moral people come to Christ...
There is not one person on these forums whom if we put every thought they had in their head down on a post...There is NOT one person who wouldn't leave this forum forever...What is a good moral person pujols do tell!
Furthermore it takes hearing the truth over and over and over again for some of the elect to finally respond to Christ, we are tools the HS does the work. Teaching psychology and living for today isn't what changes people...

You're stuck too much in MacArthur-ology. That someone has to see the utter sinfulness of their life in order to come to Christ. Not true. Sin doesn't magnify God's mercy nearly like God's goodness does.
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God's goodness was that He blanketed what he blanketed by the spilling of the blood of Christ, if one doesn't think they need that blanket then why respond to the blanket provider?

It's not Macarthurology it's what all the good teachers have taught over the generations like Edwards and Spurgoun as well.

 

[simonthezealot]

v. 6 -- "But now we have been RELEASED from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter."

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Law is not sin is what 7-11 is about IOW he says w/o it he'd never have known of lust...The Law convicts!

How where they released from the law pujols? look it says!

 

[squint]

I do believe Paul's argument here revolves around the innefficiency of the law to get the job done.

Not to mention: God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Love not law. Grace not law. Mercy not law.

Go Cards

The Law is not the enemy of the children of God. Quite the opposite.

The Law has never changed. It was and remains to be FOLLOWED PERFECTLY.

The Spirit of the Law is fulfilled IN US entirely WHEN we LOVE our neighbors as ourselves. All the 'fleshly requirements' FALL AWAY in subjugation to THE SPIRIT OF THE LAW. The FLESH cannot follow the Law Perfectly.

The Spirit of the Law CAN of ITSELF/Himself follow the Law PERFECTLY by loving our neighbors as ourselves. This is NOT US doing the loving. It is Him in us doing HIS thing.

The Law remains both our ally and our tool in these events. No believer in their right mind would EVER set aside THE SPIRIT and INTENTIONS of the Law which is

Be Perfect.

Love our neighbors as ourselves.

Love one another.

Any enemy to these commands shall be wrapped in confusions as a promise of God and DIVIDED away from the others in his mind and heart.

enjoy!

squint

 

[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

Good moral people come to Christ...There is not one person on these forums whom if we put every thought they had in their head down on a post...There is NOT one person who wouldn't leave this forum forever...What is a good moral person pujols do tell!
Furthermore it takes hearing the truth over and over and over again for some of the elect to finally respond to Christ, we are tools the HS does the work. Teaching psychology and living for today isn't what changes people...

C'mon bro. You know what I mean. We both agree on the fundamentals. Jesus is the only way, truth, life. You gotta come through him and his blood sacrifice. We're on the same page there. I was commenting on your thought that every person needs to recognize their sinfulness in order to come to Christ. Some people don't live overtly sinful lives. Does that mean they don't have sin? NO. But's it not the driving force that pushes them to Jesus. For some it's a recognition of GOd's love and goodness. We're all dyed in the wool sinners. Everyone of us.

God's goodness was that He blanketed what he blanketed by the spilling of the blood of Christ, if one doesn't think they need that blanket then why respond to the blanket provider?

Again, not all people come to Christ based on their sinfulness. And again, it's not that they aren't sinful and that there isn't a recognition of it in the salvation process. There is. It's just that a message on sin isn't what caused them to run to the altar. SOme people see acts of Christian service and ask what is it that causes you all to be so nice, good, serving, caring etc; and how do i get in on that?

It's not Macarthurology it's what all the good teachers have taught over the generations like Edwards and Spurgoun as well.

Trust me. I'm not saying do away with preaching on sin. I still do. But it's not preached in the way of MacArthur or Edwards or Spurgeon.

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[E.C.]

Well this looks like a personal debate between 2 posters so LLOJ unsubscribes......

I concur.

See y'all!

 

[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

Rom. 8:3 -- "For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son . . ."

IMO the law was there to show that no one could live up to it. The law is impossible, outside of intervention. Christ was that intervention.

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[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

I concur.

See y'all!

Again, no need to run off. Join in. Surely you have an opinion. I will try and respond to every post. If i miss yours just tell me and I'll respond.

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[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

The Law is not the enemy of the children of God. Quite the opposite.

The Law has never changed. It was and remains to be FOLLOWED PERFECTLY.

The Spirit of the Law is fulfilled IN US entirely WHEN we LOVE our neighbors as ourselves. All the 'fleshly requirements' FALL AWAY in subjugation to THE SPIRIT OF THE LAW. The FLESH cannot follow the Law Perfectly.

The Spirit of the Law CAN of ITSELF/Himself follow the Law PERFECTLY by loving our neighbors as ourselves. This is NOT US doing the loving. It is Him in us doing HIS thing.

The Law remains both our ally and our tool in these events. No believer in their right mind would EVER set aside THE SPIRIT and INTENTIONS of the Law which is

Be Perfect.

Love our neighbors as ourselves.

Love one another.

Any enemy to these commands shall be wrapped in confusions as a promise of God and DIVIDED away from the others in his mind and heart.

enjoy!

squint

I agree. I can see the role of the law in people realizing their need for a Savior, which is Simon's point . . . I think. My contention is what good is the law for those who don't know it?

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[wildboar]

I love liturgical worship and I especially love chanting. Hymns written in the 1950's sound dated but liturgical worship transcends contemporary culture. Among younger people many are now converting and going to more liturgical worship services--I think they are seeking something different from the culture that they see around them. My family has visited other churches but my four year old and two year old have a real hard time participating in more contemporary worship. In liturgical worship there is enough repitition each week that they can participate through most of the service. The vestments and furnishings also help teach them. They know that when they are worshipping in God's house they aren't just at some random rock concert or at the mall.

As for the preaching, the message should remain constant--Jesus Christ crucified. I do think that ministers should find ways to communicate that message in different ways to different people in different cultural situations, but the message itself should never be neglected.

When I was a teenager I listened to a lot of rock music and was in a pretty weird band--I played electric bass. I was a member of a church in the SBC and the pastor would try to relate to me by talking about Christian rock bands. Although I played rock music and other types of stranger music I always found the Christian rip offs of such music to be insulting and I loved old liturgical Christian music because it had a character all its own--it truly was Christian music, not just "Jesus" inserted for a song about someone's girlfriend.

 

[simonthezealot]

Again, not all people come to Christ based on their sinfulness. And again, it's not that they aren't sinful and that there isn't a recognition of it in the salvation process. There is. It's just that a message on sin isn't what caused them to run to the altar. SOme people see acts of Christian service and ask what is it that causes you all to be so nice, good, serving, caring etc; and how do i get in on that?

Seems to me what they see more is..."what happened to Simon how has it happened that he no longer is a coke head? wow what an about face"...testimony to the cleansing power of the spirit
While I do believe being; loving, nice, caring etc draw attention to the loving power and mercy of God in this manner doesn't hurt...It's not preached as the gospel message, rather the command to all believers in the fold ...

Trust me. I'm not saying do away with preaching on sin. I still do. But it's not preached in the way of MacArthur or Edwards or Spurgeon.

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Happy you do...
How is that you preach sin?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I agree. I can see the role of the law in people realizing their need for a Savior, which is Simon's point . . . I think. My contention is what good is the law for those who don't know it?

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What about those who KNOW it and don't follow/obey it

Luke 18:20 The commandments thou have known, no thou should be committing adultery, no thou should be murdering/foneushV <5407> (5661), no thou should be stealing, no thou should be bearing false witness. Be honouring thy father and thy mother.

Revelation 9:21 And not they reform/metenohsan <3340> (5656) out of the Murders/fonwn <5408> of them, nor out from their sorceries/far-makeiwn <5331>

 

[MamaZ]

I guess I am not really unerstanding what is it you are asking? LOL