Is Your Message Relevant?

[Servant of Jesus]

If by contemporary, you mean worldly, then I would adamantly disagree. If you mean it should be in the vernacular, then I would absolutely agree.

By contemporary I mean, for example, using Powerpoint and video projectors to convey the message, spreading the Word via the Internet, having more casual church services for those who like a less formal structure (and vice versa, I might add). It doesn't only mean it should be in the vernacular.

"Worldly" implies that the Word of God is being interpreted to please people- that cannot happen; as I said, the basic message of the Bible cannot be compromised.

 

[MamaZ]

Let's approach it this way -- describe for me what you feel a good church service would look like.

Go Cards

One that compromises the truth of the scripture to tickle itchy ears..

 

[squint]

I never expect to find or experience anything 'new' or 'trendy' in church. Gave it up. It has been the same old predictable HACK for hundreds of years.

I say this because it is born out of personal factual observations of the commonality of all of these groups.

Every last pocket of Christianity is predetermined down to the core. We could look at what the Pharisees did in the N.T. and compare it to what still goes on and you'd be hard pressed to find a spittle's worth of difference today, which is really a sad sad statement. IT REMAINS a fact and it is a FACT because the same things JESUS observed were going on then had a more underlying predictable root cause that IF any group does not come to terms with THEY are bound to keep repeating the same things that JESUS DETESTED and DAMNED people for.

Yes, Jesus DAMNED the ones IN CHURCH. You will find little of that from Jesus outside the church. But IN the church a HIGHER almost unattainable measure is used.

IF the churches are filled with the things JESUS DETESTED, then WHY in the WORLD would I be sitting there participating...??? Waiting for the WOE'S to come upon my head? No thank you, thank you.

The Preamble that should be NAILED to the front door of any church should be the admonitions AGAINST the Pharisees as a reminder of the POTENTIAL PLUNDER that 'church' falls into. Unfortunately ALL of them will continue to be plundered and the participants are repeatedly bound to WOE.

I'll use one of my good friends as a shill in this matter. He attends a famous trendy South Orange County CA. church with thousands of congregants. They have every program imaginable. That is in part why he is there. Their 'marketing program' is very slick. Big names. Big talent and of course the main attraction, BIG MONEY PLAYERS. The usual formula for "worldly success." Yeah baby, they are wildly successful. Their pastor is a multi-millionaire and still climbing. Who WOULDN'T want to participate there. Come on!

Well anyway, NOW my buddy, and yes he's still my buddy is just another blah blah blah PHARISEE. Sorry. He's slickly JUDGMENTAL. I say slickly 'cause he's been trained to 'couch' his terms in ambiguity and to paint self righteousness upon himself in such a trendy fashion. But in the final analysis he's no different that the complete LOAD OF ZOMBIES that the church has been turning out for a couple thousand years. Justify self. Go back fer yer self righteousness fix every week (or more) and subtly condemn everyone else one way or another based upon whatever theological 'tools and marketing efforts' your group uses to isolate itself from others.

And of course poor old stupid me is just out there on the street, witnessing to any who will listen, expecting 'church' to be there on the spot wherever I meet with another person whom God loves. Oh well, what do I know?

It's really unfortunately unavoidable for any group. And I am sincerely sorry for any Pastor who would take on such tasks. Wow. One would have to have a calling for that for sure. But you know, I got a business to run too.

I've pretty much given up on finding any group of people IN A CHURCH who would actually LOVE all their neighbors as themselves and find the scriptural justifications to do so. Hey, even if it was LIP SERVICE I'd be OK with that axiom. I can do the works on my own. I don't need no group to do that. I'm sure some churches like that may have existed. I just am not personally aware of ANY. Were they to be honest with me (few are) sooner or later I WILL FIND condemnation and subtle personal intimidation in-filtered into their systems down to the last one. Sorry. It's just a brutal fact.

I've sincerely looked for at least the first 15-20 years I believed. Being a successful business man and a natural leader it doesn't take long to be 'a leader' in the church even if you don't want to be. I sat in the purple colored seats for elders, yada yada. Woke up one day and remembered:

Luke 11:43
Woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye love the uppermost seats in the synagogues

And when I saw it, I cried. How Lord? HOW did this happen to me?

Let's play church squint? Not. Church is for actors. I'm not a drama student. I got enough of my own drama.

enjoy!

squint

 

[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

The Pentecost church I used to attend was very good with praise, singing worshipping and the Gospel message being preached.
Sometimes at the end, we would face each direction of church and pray for those that do not know JESUS as we do will come to Him and that Unity within Churchianity would be strengthened.

I have been watching that happen but when I come to the CF forum, I see just the opposite as I see strife, accusing, name calling, etc.
Why is that?

Here, everyone is trying to win an arguement. In your church, everyone is on the same page.

At some point we must be willing to trust those given to us by God to lead, to discern, to teach. This in no way alleviates our own responsibility to do the same on the some level according to our capacity, but always with a sense of order and humility.

If we take something and change it a little to make it more understandable, is it still the same? If we water down just a little bit, to make it more palatable is it still nourishing?

There is a difference between perfecting communication of the word and perfecting the word in order to communicate it. How could we perfect the Word? Sounds daunting, if not impossible. So, really we are left with only perfecting the communication. Translating it into the vernacular or even further perhaps on a sociolinguistics level. After all, just because something is written in 21st century english, doesn't mean that everyone in the US would completely understand it.

In any case, perfecting the communication would never involve altering the message in any way, otherwise, we would be perfecting the word.

So, by worldly, I would mean anything that is trying to perfect the word and vice perfecting the communication of the perfect.

Let me reiterate that I do not believe we should alter the truth. That would be wrong. However, I do not believe truth is flat and one dimensional. Most people view truth as either my way or the hiway. I'm right, you're wrong. Don't think we can be that closed minded and arrogant. Neither am I saying that all things are true. What I am saying is that our message, for it to be effective needs to be relevant to the culture I'm trying to reach. I can't take a hymnal into the gangs of east St. Louis and expect to be effective. I can't take a bible in there and start expositing Scripture. Won't work. Now, that doesn't mean that I will not use scriptures, I just won't use them in a traditional sense.

Shouldn't it at least resemble heavenly worship?

Absolutely.

Our church does not have "services".

What do you have?

Go Cards

 

[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

By contemporary I mean, for example, using Powerpoint and video projectors to convey the message, spreading the Word via the Internet, having more casual church services for those who like a less formal structure (and vice versa, I might add). It doesn't only mean it should be in the vernacular.

"Worldly" implies that the Word of God is being interpreted to please people- that cannot happen; as I said, the basic message of the Bible cannot be compromised.

One that compromises the truth of the scripture to tickle itchy ears..

That's how you would describe a 'GOOD' church service?

I never expect to find or experience anything 'new' or 'trendy' in church. Gave it up. It has been the same old predictable HACK for hundreds of years.

I say this because it is born out of personal factual observations of the commonality of all of these groups.

Every last pocket of Christianity is predetermined down to the core. We could look at what the Pharisees did in the N.T. and compare it to what still goes on and you'd be hard pressed to find a spittle's worth of difference today, which is really a sad sad statement. IT REMAINS a fact and it is a FACT because the same things JESUS observed were going on then had a more underlying predictable root cause that IF any group does not come to terms with THEY are bound to keep repeating the same things that JESUS DETESTED and DAMNED people for.

Yes, Jesus DAMNED the ones IN CHURCH. You will find little of that from Jesus outside the church. But IN the church a HIGHER almost unattainable measure is used.

IF the churches are filled with the things JESUS DETESTED, then WHY in the WORLD would I be sitting there participating...??? Waiting for the WOE'S to come upon my head? No thank you, thank you.

The Preamble that should be NAILED to the front door of any church should be the admonitions AGAINST the Pharisees as a reminder of the POTENTIAL PLUNDER that 'church' falls into. Unfortunately ALL of them will continue to be plundered and the participants are repeatedly bound to WOE.

I'll use one of my good friends as a shill in this matter. He attends a famous trendy South Orange County CA. church with thousands of congregants. They have every program imaginable. That is in part why he is there. Their 'marketing program' is very slick. Big names. Big talent and of course the main attraction, BIG MONEY PLAYERS. The usual formula for "worldly success." Yeah baby, they are wildly successful. Their pastor is a multi-millionaire and still climbing. Who WOULDN'T want to participate there. Come on!

Well anyway, NOW my buddy, and yes he's still my buddy is just another blah blah blah PHARISEE. Sorry. He's slickly JUDGMENTAL. I say slickly 'cause he's been trained to 'couch' his terms in ambiguity and to paint self righteousness upon himself in such a trendy fashion. But in the final analysis he's no different that the complete LOAD OF ZOMBIES that the church has been turning out for a couple thousand years. Justify self. Go back fer yer self righteousness fix every week (or more) and subtly condemn everyone else one way or another based upon whatever theological 'tools and marketing efforts' your group uses to isolate itself from others.

And of course poor old stupid me is just out there on the street, witnessing to any who will listen, expecting 'church' to be there on the spot wherever I meet with another person whom God loves. Oh well, what do I know?

It's really unfortunately unavoidable for any group. And I am sincerely sorry for any Pastor who would take on such tasks. Wow. One would have to have a calling for that for sure. But you know, I got a business to run too.

I've pretty much given up on finding any group of people IN A CHURCH who would actually LOVE all their neighbors as themselves and find the scriptural justifications to do so. Hey, even if it was LIP SERVICE I'd be OK with that axiom. I can do the works on my own. I don't need no group to do that. I'm sure some churches like that may have existed. I just am not personally aware of ANY. Were they to be honest with me (few are) sooner or later I WILL FIND condemnation and subtle personal intimidation in-filtered into their systems down to the last one. Sorry. It's just a brutal fact.

I've sincerely looked for at least the first 15-20 years I believed. Being a successful business man and a natural leader it doesn't take long to be 'a leader' in the church even if you don't want to be. I sat in the purple colored seats for elders, yada yada. Woke up one day and remembered:

Luke 11:43
Woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye love the uppermost seats in the synagogues

And when I saw it, I cried. How Lord? HOW did this happen to me?

Let's play church squint? Not. Church is for actors. I'm not a drama student. I got enough of my own drama.

enjoy!

squint

Very, very, good post Squint! I appreciate your candor so much. I am truly sorry the church hasn't been what she needs to be. Which is why you are needed. Someone has to bring change. Someone has to be that voice. Why not you? Would you do me a favor? Would you listen to this talk and tell me what you think?

http://everyoneneedsgrace.com/sermons/current/

Thanks.

go cards

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus The Pentecost church I used to attend was very good with praise, singing worshipping and the Gospel message being preached.
Sometimes at the end, we would face each direction of church and pray for those that do not know JESUS as we do will come to Him and that Unity within Churchianity would be strengthened.

I have been watching that happen but when I come to the CF forum, I see just the opposite as I see strife, accusing, name calling, etc.
Why is that?

Here, everyone is trying to win an arguement. In your church, everyone is on the same page.

Sometimes a page can be viewed differently from one denomination/church to another. Preaching the Kingdom of the Gospel of LIFE is always a good thing

Mark 1:15 And saying "has been filled the Time and has-neared/hggiken <1448> (5758) the Kingdom of the God.
Be ye reforming! and be ye believing! in the Good-Message.

Luke 21:31 "Thus also ye whenever ye may be seeing these becoming, ye are knowing that NIGH/egguV <1451> is the Kingdom of the God."

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/kingdom/kog1.htm

..............It is significant to note that the phrases "Kingdom of God" and "Kingdom of Heaven" are not to be found in the Old Testament. They are strictly New Testament terms beginning with John the Baptist and Jesus. When Jesus came He did not preach a message called grace, or salvation, or justification, or sanctification, or regeneration, or even the Church.

Could there be any more glorious message than the one that fell from His lips as He began His sonship ministry declaring, "The KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND!" From that time forward the great teaching of the Lord centered in the truth of THE KINGDOM. His gospel was the gospel (good news) of the Kingdom of God. ..........

 

[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

LittleLambofJesus;51072829]Sometimes a page can be viewed differently from one denomination/church to another. Preaching the Kingdom of the Gospel of LIFE is always a good thing

I absolutely agree! That's why we have so many denoms.

 

[Kristos]

example of heavenly worship:

In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a
throne, high and lifted up; and his train filled the temple. Above him
stood the seraphim; each had six wings: with two he covered his face,
and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one
called to another and said: "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; the
whole earth is full of his glory." And the foundations of the
thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled
with smoke. And I said: "Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of
unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for
my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!" Then flew one of
the seraphim to me, having in his hand a burning coal which he had
taken with tongs from the altar. And he touched my mouth, and said:
"Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your
sin forgiven."

 

[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

example of heavenly worship:

In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a
throne, high and lifted up; and his train filled the temple. Above him
stood the seraphim; each had six wings: with two he covered his face,
and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one
called to another and said: "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; the
whole earth is full of his glory." And the foundations of the
thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled
with smoke. And I said: "Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of
unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for
my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!" Then flew one of
the seraphim to me, having in his hand a burning coal which he had
taken with tongs from the altar. And he touched my mouth, and said:
"Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your
sin forgiven."

Translate that into a modern day worship experience.

Go Cards

 

[Kristos]

Translate that into a modern day worship experience.

Go Cards

No translation necessary. It happens every Sunday in the Orthodox church. Come and see

Joh 1:46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see.

 

[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

No translation necessary. It happens every Sunday in the Orthodox church. Come and see

Joh 1:46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see.

Sorry, but I have my doubts on this one Kristos! I doubt if angels fly from the throne of God with coals from the altar and place them on your lips. I'm also from MO . . . prove it.

Go Cards

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Kristos example of heavenly worship:

.............Then flew one of the seraphim to me, having in his hand a burning coal which he had taken with tongs from the altar. And he touched my mouth, and said:
"Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your
sin forgiven."

Except in Revelation the burning coals are cast unto the Land........WOE IS ME......MY LIPS ARE BURNING!

Revelation 8:5 And has taken, the Messenger, the franckincensor, and he crams-full it out of the Fire of the Altar.
And he casts it into the Land and became thunders and sounds and lightnings and quaking [Revelation 18:18]

 

[Kristos]

Sorry, but I have my doubts on this one Kristos! I doubt if angels fly from the throne of God with coals from the altar and place them on your lips. I'm also from MO . . . prove it.

Go Cards

It's all represented.

I thought MO was the show me state - did they change it to prove it

Come and see, anytime.

 

[E.C.]

Sorry, but I have my doubts on this one Kristos! I doubt if angels fly from the throne of God with coals from the altar and place them on your lips. I'm also from MO . . . prove it.

Go Cards

I always thought you were from Curly

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I always thought you were from Curly

Are you dissing my bro Curly

 

[Kristos]

Except in Revelation the burning coals are cast unto the Land........WOE IS ME......MY LIPS ARE BURNING!

Revelation 8:5 And has taken, the Messenger, the franckincensor, and he crams-full it out of the Fire of the Altar.
And he casts it into the Land and became thunders and sounds and lightnings and quaking [Revelation 18:18]

I don't think that is the same thing. Incense and the lighting of it from the fire of the altar would be different from the burning coal that forgives sins in Isaiah.

But either way, it seems to indicate the Incence and Censors are intigral parts of heavenly worship.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Shouldn't it at least resemble heavenly worship?

why? We aren't there. How? We've only been given miniscule glances at what heavenly worship may be like.

IM(ns)HO, insisting on a form of worship based on one of those tiny glimpses, is insisting that heavenly worship has no more to it than that. I disagree with that idea.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

why? We aren't there. How? We've only been given miniscule glances at what heavenly worship may be like.

IM(ns)HO, insisting on a form of worship based on one of those tiny glimpses, is insisting that heavenly worship has no more to offer than that. I disagree with that idea.

Greetings. The book of Revelation shows a little more than just tiny glimpses of the heavenly worhipping if one delves into it in a Hebrew frame of mine. Pretty fascinating book!

John 4:22 Ye are worshipping (5719) which not ye know/oidate <1492> (5758).
We are worshipping/proskunoumen <4352> (5719) which we have known/oidamen <1492> (5758), that the Salvation out/ek <1537> of-the Judeans is.

Reve 1:1 And was given to me a reed, like-as a rod one-saying: "Be rousing! and measure! the sanctuary/naon <3485> of the God and the altar and those worshipping/proskunountaV <4352> (5723) in him/it.
2 and the Court/Fold/aulhn <833>, the-one with-out/in of-the Sanctuary, be thou Casting Out!/ ek-bale 1544 (5628)] out-side/exw <1854>

 

[Kristos]

Greetings. The book of Revelation shows a little more than just tiny glimpses of the heavenly worhipping if one delves into it in a Hebrew frame of mine. Pretty fascinating book!

John 4:22 Ye are worshipping (5719) which not ye know/oidate <1492> (5758).
We are worshipping/proskunoumen <4352> (5719) which we have known/oidamen <1492> (5758), that the Salvation out/ek <1537> of-the Judeans is.

Reve 1:1 And was given to me a reed, like-as a rod one-saying: "Be rousing! and measure! the sanctuary/naon <3485> of the God and the altar and those worshipping/proskunountaV <4352> (5723) in him/it.
2 and the Court/Fold/aulhn <833>, the-one with-out/in of-the Sanctuary, be thou Casting Out!/ ek-bale 1544 (5628)] out-side/exw <1854>

I agree - it's much more than glimpses. If you choose to ignore what God has revealed, how will you react when you're faced with the whole enchillada? How could one completely reject it now and then expect to embrace it later?

 

[Mankin]

We don't need to change the message to fit the world. Too many people do, making it all "feel good". Then they are lost when the party goes away.

If people don't KNOW they are sinners, why would they THINK they need to be saved? You need to teach people about sin so they know and are aware so they don't continue to sin and can repent when they sin. The gospel needs to be preached in its ENTIRETY.

Condemnation only works for those who are already feeling guilty. The fact that everyone is a sinner is not part of the Gospel, the solution to this problem is.

Also, I would pose a question to everyone here about worship services. You said it is what God "wants" for a worship service not what we "want." However, who do you define a perfect worship service? Is the worship service of the Puritans 400 hundred years ago somehow more sanctified than the worship services of this day and age?