Is Your Message Relevant?

[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

I use the method taught by Christ!

I'm sure that's what everyone thinks.

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[LittleLambofJesus]

What about the woman caught in the act of adultery? Nothing condemning there. Even in his own words -- "Does no one condemn you? Then neither do I." The only thing Jesus told her was to go and leave your life of sin. He didn't name it, preach a 3 point sermon on it. In fact, she didn't even ask him for anything. It was a total act of mercy.

go cards.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

John 8:6 This yet they said trying Him, that they may be having to be accusing of Him. The yet Jesus down-stooping to the finger Wrote into the ground,
7 As yet they persisted asking Him, He up-bends and said toward them "The sinless-one of ye first the stone on her let be casting"!
8 And again down-stooping He Wrote into the ground.


http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=4724863&page=6
John 8 and Jesus writing in the Dirt

 

[simonthezealot]

What about the woman caught in the act of adultery? Nothing condemning there. Even in his own words -- "Does no one condemn you? Then neither do I." The only thing Jesus told her was to go and leave your life of sin. He didn't name it, preach a 3 point sermon on it. In fact, she didn't even ask him for anything. It was a total act of mercy.

go cards.

We don't condemn it's about allowing the unsaved to recognise their own depravity... You don't think that she was full aware of her misgivings? Sure Christ did NOT condemn her, but he also didn't say don't worry about it, he said do it NO more, right?

 

[jamiel]

Are modern day evangelicals trying to be to hip? to relevant? Also, what defines a relevant preacher over one who's not? How about the way preachers dress today . . . does it matter? Music? Dance? What say ye?

I think in a way they are. Either perhaps unconsciously (or more likely, consciously) evangelicals are affected by their culture and adapt. So too does their message (in varying degrees) adapt. But, I also believe this is nothing new.

On the national scene, I'll tell you what I don't understand in endeavouring to be "hip":

Why must an evangelical preacher be a self-help guru? Or a motivational speaker. I suppose it's all in the packaging, but shouldn't they instead inspire and provide information? Save souls?

Some of these people by their statements are wanting when it comes to the basics of Christianity, such as struggling with a question about justification, saying Jesus wasn't the only begotten Son of God, saying that homosexuals aren't God "at His best" (as if God isn't perfect!)

Nothing wrong with being hip, but where's the message? I'd concentrate on fixing these basics before I'd ever think about being hip instead . . . Do you think Jesus cared if He was regarded as hip?

 

[ArcticFox]

Relevance is a difficult topic.

We don't want to make our whole approach based around "relevance," because by itself, the Lord's Supper or prayer would seem irrelevant in the "modern world," would it not?

We need to create relevance. Make people aware of why the message is relevant, not tailor the message to what the people are looking for.

I think that one of the most foundational, basic problems that Christian leaders have is they lack trust.. trust in God. If you trust in God and the Holy Spirit, you must believe that he will guide believers. Instead of spoon-feeding people what they want to hear or telling them exactly what to do, teach them about God and his biblical truths. Teach them the stories of the Bible. Teach them about what the Bible says...

And then let believers make their own informed decisions about how to live their lives, because the Holy Spirit is in them, isn't he? We feel too much need to "control," tell people what to do. There are at least a thousand decisions you make every day that there is no direct answer for in the Bible. How long should you prayer? What should you eat? When? Who should you meet? What should you say right now? What should you study? What should you do in this 10 minutes here? How should you exercise? And on...

Fill people with God's truth and stories of his character and working in history, and people will, guided by the Holy Spirit, begin to live a life pleasing to God.

 

[E.C.]

My good buddy Simon and I have a running debate on this subject. Would like to open our can of worms up to all who give a hoot and have an opinion on this matter.

Are modern day evangelicals trying to be to hip? to relevant? Also, what defines a relevant preacher over one who's not? How about the way preachers dress today . . . does it matter? Music? Dance? What say ye?

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When I think Evangelicals, I think names like Ted Haggard, Jimmy Swaggart and people in suits on TV hustling for money. Although some actually take said money for a good cause.
Just wanted to throw out what I understand "Evangelical" to mean to avoid confusion here.


That being said, I think that the Evangelical attempt at being 'hip', 'relevant' and so forth will only last so long. It's nothing more than exploiting one's pathos (emotions) to ride through an emotional 'high' with little depth of theology and/or worship other than "All Liberals are going to hell" and other politics. Too much of Evangelical theology is so presumptive.

We hear that question "Where are you going when you die?" or something like it. My answer is two parts: 1) a six foot deep hole and 2) Who the heck knows? My body will be asleep and in that nice six foot hole if I'm lucky, but the soul? I haven't a clue. Billions of people have died since the dawn of existence, but do we have any record or knowing of what the fate of their souls 'ended up'? Not really. And even then, Christ said a good number of times that A) only God the Father knows the hour and B) only God the Father can make such a judgment.

It is scar tactics to fill in pews, in my opinion. Tell someone that you have 'all the answers' and that if they don't join your church than they will die is just wrong on almost every level imaginable. It instills fear. Fear that if someone doesn't make it to church one time to hear Pastor Billy Bob rant about how evil FDR was and how evil everything non-Republican is, than their own soul is immediately condemned to the fiery deep. What kind of worship is that? Where is the prayer in hearing a man in a business suit under two layers of make-up and a $400 haircut whine about those that are not of his political ideology? What's with that?

I've heard that for many Protestants that knowledge of the Bible is considered 'worship'. That makes about as much sense to me as Quantum Physics does to an uncontacted remote tribe in the Amazon (unless the tribe is made up of Einstein clones which I highly doubt, but just roll with me here). I've read a lot of books. I've read "Grapes of Wrath", "Grendel", "Beowulf", "Brave New World", part of "The Brothers Karamazov" and many more. Have any of them caused a complete 180 change in my life on any level? Not really.
But to take the Holy Scriptures and make people read and memorize and listen to what you the business suit preacher man says the verses mean is just hooey. Sure, ideal one of the crowd could read the Bible and think differently than said preacher man. But what will happen if one exposes preacher man's fraud? You yourself will be ousted of the church which you were told is the one and only place to know Christ and shall be condemned by the masses. Again, what kind of hooey is that? How can someone claim to be in the 'business' of 'saving souls' when one condemns souls left and right and kicks out dissenters all the while creating a cult of personality around oneself?

My dad grew up in North Seattle. We were driving around the area one evening and he pointed out all these various Protestant churches that were on the real estate market. I asked him why they were on the market. His response was because the main pastor of a parish died. A new pastor went in and the people hated him and thus went Atheist over a long period of time. Eventually, the church could not scrap the pennies together to pay off the bills and had to go on the market. This happened to about seven churches that he showed me.


So what do I think of Evangelicalism? I think that in the grand scheme of things it will pass along like any other old fad and create nothing but more "burned over" districts across the country. The whole thought of being 'with the times' or 'hip' or 'keeping with the fads' just does not work. It becomes nothing but another ad in the uncharted clutter in the jungle of advertisements. People get tired of the constant 'with the times' thought and will crave consistency and, IMHO, shall only find it in a liturgically worshiping Church/faith/whatever.

Christ is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Why change how He is worshipped? What is the need to change how one worships the Incomprehensable and the Unchangeable? Did Christ cease to be God at some point and no one ever let the word out and thus that's why there is no reverence, but mere 'praise fests' in the world of Western Christianity?
Go ahead, call me a traditionalist or an ultra-conservative. But ya know what? At least I ended up where I am at because of what has undeniably been God's Will.


But I am just an acolyte.

 

[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

simonthezealot;51043495]We don't condemn it's about allowing the unsaved to recognise their own depravity...

And you think they need a message on how sinful they are and how they are breaking the laws of God in order help them recognize their own depravity??????

You don't think that she was full aware of her misgivings?

Yes! And not a word about her sin had been spoken to her by Jesus. All she knew was the condemnation of Pharisees. So any information she would have gotten from them was misguided, cruel and not correct.

Sure Christ did NOT condemn her, but he also didn't say don't worry about it, he said do it NO more, right?

I acknowledged that. My point is that Jesus didn't pull out a three point sermon on adultery either. He loved her into the kingdom. She was led into it through mercy.

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[LittleLambofJesus]

We don't condemn it's about allowing the unsaved to recognise their own depravity... You don't think that she was full aware of her misgivings? Sure Christ did NOT condemn her, but he also didn't say don't worry about it, he said do it NO more, right?

And you think they need a message on how sinful they are and how they are breaking the laws of God in order help them recognize their own depravity??????

Yes! And not a word about her sin had been spoken to her by Jesus. All she knew was the condemnation of Pharisees. So any information she would have gotten from them was misguided, cruel and not correct.

I acknowledged that. My point is that Jesus didn't pull out a three point sermon on adultery either. He loved her into the kingdom. She was led into it through mercy.

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Matthew 21:31 "Which out of the two did the will of the Father"? They say to Him "the first."
Is saying to them Jesus "verily I am saying to ye, that the tribute-gatherers and the prostitutes/pornai <4204> preceding ye into the kingdom of the God"

 

[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

I think in a way they are. Either perhaps unconsciously (or more likely, consciously) evangelicals are affected by their culture and adapt. So too does their message (in varying degrees) adapt. But, I also believe this is nothing new.

And adaptation is bad how???

On the national scene, I'll tell you what I don't understand in endeavouring to be "hip":Why must an evangelical preacher be a self-help guru? Or a motivational speaker. I suppose it's all in the packaging, but shouldn't they instead inspire and provide information? Save souls?

I'm sure there is a spectrum out there. There's so many I am not aware of. So I speak only of the marquee 'hip' evangelicals: Rob Bell, Erwin McManus, etc. No doubt there are those who are trying to be 'hip' for all the wrong reasons and it just comes across cheesy.

Now, as for being a self-help guru or a motivational speaker. The way I see it what could be more helpful to a person's self than to join in relationship to Christ? We have the greatest message of help available. And do not be deceived that the only thing a pastor does is give out the gospel and it fixes all of people's problems. Pastor's spend a great deal of their time dealing with personal problems that didn't get fixed when someone accepted Christ. Or problems that came along after they found Christ. I rarely have someone come in to the office and ask if Jesus is God's Son? Or what exactly is justification? No, they've usually got an interpersonal relationship or personality issue that's plaguing them. Sometime's there's not a verse to turn to. What then? In my opinion, some of the relevant churches today are answering these questions through their messages.

Nothing wrong with being hip, but where's the message? I'd concentrate on fixing these basics before I'd ever think about being hip instead . . . Do you think Jesus cared if He was regarded as hip?

I'd ask the same thing about some of the more conservative evangelicals: where's the message? I've been around the church all my life and I've heard some devastatingly bad conservative preachers who had so little content that it was absurd to anyone with half an intellect. The 'hip' 'trendy' churches are at least trying to connect relationally with people. I've seen conservative fundamental churches that weren't welcoming at all and no seeker would dare go back a second time.

Did Jesus care if he was hip? I'd put it like this -- Jesus was the most hip thing that had come along in a long, long time. He was culturally relevant. His teaching was new. His teaching had an authority. It moved people, physically, emotionally, relationally.

go cards

 

[simonthezealot]

I acknowledged that. My point is that Jesus didn't pull out a three point sermon on adultery either. He loved her into the kingdom. She was led into it through mercy.

Go Cards

Law / Grace preaching does exactly that, IT acually magnifies Gods mercy and encourages one to do the other thing Christ pointed out to each sinner he dealt with ....REPENT!

 

[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

=ArcticFox;51049131]Relevance is a difficult topic. We don't want to make our whole approach based around "relevance," because by itself, the Lord's Supper or prayer would seem irrelevant in the "modern world," would it not?

Relevance is not evil. Relevance is not inherently bad. Not sure if I follow AF -- help me understand.

We need to create relevance. Make people aware of why the message is relevant, not tailor the message to what the people are looking for.

Not sure. I feel God tailor's messages to us individually all the time. If you mean change the content or meaning of the message, then ok.

I think that one of the most foundational, basic problems that Christian leaders have is they lack trust.. trust in God. If you trust in God and the Holy Spirit, you must believe that he will guide believers. Instead of spoon-feeding people what they want to hear or telling them exactly what to do, teach them about God and his biblical truths. Teach them the stories of the Bible. Teach them about what the Bible says...

And then let believers make their own informed decisions about how to live their lives, because the Holy Spirit is in them, isn't he? We feel too much need to "control," tell people what to do. There are at least a thousand decisions you make every day that there is no direct answer for in the Bible. How long should you prayer? What should you eat? When? Who should you meet? What should you say right now? What should you study? What should you do in this 10 minutes here? How should you exercise? And on...

Fill people with God's truth and stories of his character and working in history, and people will, guided by the Holy Spirit, begin to live a life pleasing to God.

The challenge is how to creatively tell those stories so that it is not only understood by our culture, but that our culture is gripped by them and see the need for them in their lives. Then it becomes relevant.

go cards

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Law / Grace preaching does exactly that, IT acually magnifies Gods mercy and encourages one to do the other thing Christ pointed out to each sinner he dealt with ....REPENT!

Love yer hat

simonthezealot

My Puritan hat, since compared to Pujols I am one!


http://www.apuritansmind.com/ChristianWalk/HateChrist.htm

 

[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

Law / Grace preaching does exactly that, IT acually magnifies Gods mercy and encourages one to do the other thing Christ pointed out to each sinner he dealt with ....REPENT!

And your proof of this method is?

Go cards.

 

[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

Love yer hat

simonthezealot

My Puritan hat, since compared to Pujols I am one!


http://www.apuritansmind.com/ChristianWalk/HateChrist.htm

I'm shocked he still speaks modern English instead of 1611 KJV -- "Repentest thou sinner! Maketh restitution for thy wicked self, lest ye be forced to weareth a hat liketh mine and speaketh in a KJV tongue . . . eth."

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[LittleLambofJesus]

I'm shocked he still speaks modern English instead of 1611 KJV -- "Repentest thou sinner! Maketh restitution for thy wicked self, lest ye be forced to weareth a hat liketh mine and speaketh in a KJV tongue . . . eth."

Go Cards

I use the KJperV as a coaster on my coffee table

 

[simonthezealot]

Don't you agree it takes a heart broken by conviction of sin, and the baptism of the spirit for one to respond to Christ?
If your called to preach you should preach with all your energy directed toward the TRUTH.

 

[simonthezealot]

And your proof of this method is?

Go cards.

How about the woman at the well?
When one see's how depraved they are and how undeserving of eternal life and then see's the unselfish act of God that allows us to be son's and daughters of God, how can that NOT magnify His mercy?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

How about the woman at the well?
When one see's how depraved they are and how undeserving of eternal life and then see's the unselfish act of God that allows us to be son's and daughters of God, how can that NOT magnify His mercy?

And to be glorified thru them

2 Thessalonians 1:10 Whenever He shall be coming to be Glorified in His Saints and to be marvelled in all the ones believing, that was believed the testimony of us upon ye in the Day, that . [Zech 14:5/Reve 19]

Ezekiel 39:13 And all of people of the land bury them and He becomes to them a name Day of to be Glorified of Me declaration of my Lord YHWH. [2 Thess 1:10]

 

[simonthezealot]

Romans 5:20
Moreover[SIZE=+0] the law[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] entered[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], that[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] the offence[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] might abound[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]. But[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] where[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] sin[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] abounded[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], grace[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] did much more abound[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]: [/SIZE]

 

[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

Don't you agree it takes a heart broken by conviction of sin, and the baptism of the spirit for one to respond to Christ? If your called to preach you should preach with all your energy directed toward the TRUTH.

I'm not sure about a heart broken by a conviciton of sin. I've seen good moral people come to Christ that didn't really have an overt sin problem, other than the nature they were born with. They simply recognized they needed something outside of themselves to be right with God. The truth is there are people at all kinds of different points and levels of life. Some of them would never respond to John MacArthur but they would to Rob Bell. And vice versa.

How about the woman at the well?
When one see's how depraved they are and how undeserving of eternal life and then see's the unselfish act of God that allows us to be son's and daughters of God, how can that NOT magnify His mercy?

You're stuck too much in MacArthur-ology. That someone has to see the utter sinfulness of their life in order to come to Christ. Not true. Sin doesn't magnify God's mercy nearly like God's goodness does.

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