• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Is YEC science? Is is even really a theory?

rjs330

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2015
28,088
9,042
65
✟429,523.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Don't be silly. I'm an atheist. You might as well say that I think Zeus could do something I thought to be evil.

As I said upstream, the question 'Do you think it happened?' has literally nothing to do with me questioning the morality of God. I know it didn't happen. I am more interested in whether you follow a God that you think could do such a thing.

When the question is asked, there are a couple of options available.

One, it didn't happen. God would never do such a thing.

Two, it did happen. And drowning babies is perfectly fine if God decides to do it. Followed by some facile argument that He knew that they were going to turn out bad. Meaning he created the human race knowing He was going to drown them. Where's the free will in that situation? What's that? He gave them every opportunity and plenty of warnings to change their ways you say? Well, except for the little children. And if He knew that they were going to turn out bad, then He knew the parents would as well. So the warnings were a waste of everyone's time.

This might just be me, but anyone selecting Option One comes out of it looking good. They are against drowning children. I class that as a plus. But those selecting Option 2 indictate to me that firstly they have no problem in having kids drowned just because God says so (which is seriously a major problem for me, as if God can do what He wants and it's accepted as being OK, then He can demand anything He wants and there will be no argument). And secondly, they have put no thought into the implications whatsoever.

Thank you for your answer.

Of course I don't have a problem with anything God did. Why would I?

He's God. He never does anything unjust because he knows everything. He understands everything. His ways are not our ways or thoughts our thoughts. That's good because we are ignorantz stupid, foolish and evil. We are never fully just. We don't know anything. We don't know the beginning or the end of anything. Half the time we don't even know our own thoughts. You live on this planet for a short 75 years or so. You pretty much have to be taught everything either by someone else or trial and error. You dont have the knowledge ofuch of anything and have no idea what we haven't discovered yet. You yet you assume that we as humans are smart enough and wise enough?

This is why a fool says in his heart there is no God.

I've got no issues with what God does b cause I know he is perfect in all his ways and am not.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Torah Keeper
Upvote 0

Bradskii

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Aug 19, 2018
23,061
15,677
72
Bondi
✟370,332.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Uh oh....someone is dodging the question because they can't answer it. Now let me educate you.

Abiogenesis is the beginning of evolutionary theory. It is the foundation. You can't have a working theory without a beginning. If I ask you, how did life begin? The atheist answer is always the same. You avoid the question. If abiogenesis is not true, then you must accept the existence of an eternal, uncreated God. Louis Pasteur proved that abiogenesis is not true. So there is your evidence for an eternal, uncreated God. Unless you provide evidence that abiogenesis is true, then evolutionary theory collapses into the hole where it's foundation should be.

So again, please tell me if Dawkins presents evidence for abiogenesis in his book, or if he is just blowing hot air from both ends.
As regards exhibiting a lack of knowledge of both subjects, this takes the gold sash. Let me make this simple for you.

Life started on this planet. We call that abiogenesis. And then it evolved. Here's the deal. I'll accept your claim that God was the One that started the ball rolling. He started life, but we don't know yet how He did it.

Does that in some way deny that evolution happened? No. Does that mean that He didn't use evolution as the process to get from there to here? No. Does that mean that we can't study evolution because we don't know what process God used for abiogenesis? No. Does that mean that after umpteen posts from a variety of people explaining the differences between the two subjects you have understood what is being discussed? No.

And I don't expect that last point to change. Exhibited by the fact that you are asking questions and are being given detailed and concise answers by people who are trying to help you undertsand...but you are simply ignoring them. And therefore wasting everyone's time.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Astrophile
Upvote 0

Bradskii

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Aug 19, 2018
23,061
15,677
72
Bondi
✟370,332.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
There is no galactic amount of evidence unless you believe that there is. There isn't.
That's simply perverse. To attempt to refute the evidence is one thing. To deny that the largest body of evidence for any scientific theory simply doesn't exist is to be in denial.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Astrophile
Upvote 0

Bradskii

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Aug 19, 2018
23,061
15,677
72
Bondi
✟370,332.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
I've got no issues with what God does b cause I know he is perfect in all his ways and am not.
Therein lies the problem. If someone switches off their morality meter and simply says 'If God commands it, it's OK', then if that person believes that He has commanded them to do something, there is literally nothing that cannot be done. Whether He would ask that person or not is not the point. If someone reaches a situation where they can say, as you just did 'I have no issues with what God does', then the most horrendous acts are possible. Let's face it, drowning a planetfull of babes in arms and young children and pregnant women and the bed ridden etc is about as horrific as you can get.

And you have an escape clause. It's was story told in times way past to strike the fear of God into simple people. To convince them to do good. To not sin. Otherwise the wrath of God will descend on them. It's not actually true. It's a morality tale. And I can well imagine God rolling His eyes when He hears people say 'Hey, personally speaking I think it was perfectly acceptable'.

Someone saying that if they believe it's God's will then literally anything is acceptable and that therefore excuses them from moral determination is an abnegation of personal responsibility.
 
Upvote 0

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
15,069
5,309
✟327,545.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Did you see all the assumption you made in all of that? All the assumptions the scientists make in all of that? Blood groups evolved. That's an assumption. There is no way to show that it happened that way.

The best explanation? Really? No, it's an assumptive explanation. They believe it happened but can't show it happened. It just is and because they believe it happejed by evolution and not because they can show it happened by evolution.

You know what it actually shows is that God created it that way and has created creatures with similar design qualities. That's a belief system too.

Everything in evolution is "suggests" or is debated and one theory may have stronger beliefs than another.

These scientists are very smart, but they are committed to the belief of evolution form a common ancestor. They are very good at finding and comparing things. But they all they have done is fine and compair and hypothesize. They don't know. B cause I get can't.

They could just as easily said, look how things are designed. And look at how God created all his creation with similarities of design. But they have chosen not to.
Spoken like someone who has no idea what they are talking about.

How do you test your "God did it" idea? Go on, actually tell me. How do you test it? You can't. it's completely untestable. The science, on the other hand, is easily testable. And that's the difference. Religion gives us an untestable, unfalsifiable claim that not only are we told not to question, but has intentionally made itself untestable. Science invites investigation and welcomes the chance to be put to the test.
 
Upvote 0

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
15,069
5,309
✟327,545.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Uh oh....someone is dodging the question because they can't answer it. Now let me educate you.

Abiogenesis is the beginning of evolutionary theory. It is the foundation. You can't have a working theory without a beginning. If I ask you, how did life begin? The atheist answer is always the same. You avoid the question. If abiogenesis is not true, then you must accept the existence of an eternal, uncreated God. Louis Pasteur proved that abiogenesis is not true. So there is your evidence for an eternal, uncreated God. Unless you provide evidence that abiogenesis is true, then evolutionary theory collapses into the hole where it's foundation should be.

So again, please tell me if Dawkins presents evidence for abiogenesis in his book, or if he is just blowing hot air from both ends.
Abiogenesis is NOT the beginning of evolution. That's like saying mining is the beginning of learning how to drive a car, because the car can't exist without mines to get the metal the car is made from.

You try to act like you know what you are talking about, but I suspect that you've got your "science" from a bunch of creationists, so what you have is nothing more than a poor strawman of science, and is completely useless in every way.
 
Upvote 0

Gene2memE

Newbie
Oct 22, 2013
4,630
7,161
✟340,264.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Uh oh....someone is dodging the question because they can't answer it. Now let me educate you.

Abiogenesis is the beginning of evolutionary theory. It is the foundation.

It's not.

Life reproducing and passing on heritable variations is the foundation of evolutionary theory.

Darwin and Wallace described existing life and fossil remains in their formulations of the Theory of Evolution By Natural Selection. No understanding, or even discussion, of the origin of life was necessary.

The origin of life doesn't need to be considered AT ALL for the Theory of Evolution to accurately describe the observed fact of evolution, nor the history of life on earth.

You can't have a working theory without a beginning.

You can. For instance, we have working theories of the fundamental interactions in physics, without having an understanding of what caused the beginning of the universe. All we need are observation and testing based on our predictive models.

This is sort of like arguing that if you don't understand the beginning of the universe, you can't have a working theory of nuclear physics, or gravity, or quantum mechanics.

If I ask you, how did life begin? The atheist answer is always the same. You avoid the question.

We don't fully know. We may never have a full understanding of the particular circumstances that led to the formation of life on earth.
However, we have some understanding of the processes that needed to occur for simple self-replicating molecules to become complex self-replicating molecules which at some point at a minimum of 3.8 billion years ago (and in all likelihood more like 4.1 billion years ago) became 'life' as we define it.

If abiogenesis is not true, then you must accept the existence of an eternal, uncreated God.

Errrm, what? This makes as much sense as saying "If meatballs go with pasta, then you must accept the existence of an eternal, uncreated Flying Spaghetti Monster".

Abiogensis is a collection of hypotheses about how life could have started on earth. You can't say "abiogenesis is not true". At most, you could say that our current hypotheses are not adequate to explain the origination of life on earth. And so those hypotheses would just get replaced with better candidate explanations.

Louis Pasteur proved that abiogenesis is not true.

No, he disproved spontaneous generation. Which is the idea that certain living things were created (fully formed) inside inanimate material. Abiogenesis is the hypothesis that biological life is derived from simpler non-biological self-replicators.

So there is your evidence for an eternal, uncreated God. Unless you provide evidence that abiogenesis is true, then evolutionary theory collapses into the hole where it's foundation should be.

It's not evidence for God.
If I say the evidence shows that the butler didn't commit a murder, it's not evidence for someone else having committed it. Evidence needs to be specific to the claim and exhaustive of other claims. If all existing origin of life research was invalidated tomorrow, it would have no bearing on whether a God or gods exist or not, nor whether such a being is capable of creating life, nor whether such a being did in fact create life.

So again, please tell me if Dawkins presents evidence for abiogenesis in his book, or if he is just blowing hot air from both ends.

Dawkins may or may not have presented evidence of abiogensis, but that's totally immaterial to the actual point.

Origin of life research is an ongoing field. New hypotheses and evidence about the origin of life continue to be produced.

At the moment, ALL of the evidence suggests life is derived from a universal common ancestor that lived about 4 billion years ago and that life has evolved progressively since then, undergoing multiple periods of rapid diversification and adaptive radiations.

At the same time, none of the evidence points to a deity being involved, or of any particular religious creation myth accurately describing the development of life on earth.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Hans Blaster
Upvote 0

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
15,069
5,309
✟327,545.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
A-biogenesis = not from biogenesis = from the dust of the ground.
What are you going on about?

"abiogenesis, the idea that life arose from nonlife more than 3.5 billion years ago on Earth. Abiogenesis proposes that the first life-forms generated were very simple and through a gradual process became increasingly complex." SOURCE
 
Upvote 0

Astrid

Well-Known Member
Feb 10, 2021
11,053
3,695
40
Hong Kong
✟188,686.00
Country
Hong Kong
Gender
Female
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
In Relationship
This is very interesting. It's definitely indicative of the belief system of evolution believers. Of course there were dinosaurs with wings. That doesn't prove a thing. It's still assumed that they evolved from crawling on the land with scales like lizards to being flying dinosaurs. No thought is given to the fact that they could have been created that way and never evolved. They just were. Chickens and pigeons are not lizards. When you said scales I was picturing lizards like the iguana or a reptile like a snake.

Of course some chickens or pigeons have feathers on their legs. So? That doesn't prove it even show evolution form a common ancestor for all things. All it shows is that some chickens and pigeons have feathers on their legs.

This is were evolution goes off the he rails. To them EVERYTHING is evidence of evolution. Even though they have no way of showing it to be so.

Just to be clear I am NOT an evolution denier in the sense that there is no evolution of a certain creature. For example bacteria evolves in order to survive. There are lizards whos digestive system has changed order to survive. Etc. That's because God made it that way in order for his creation to continue to exist. Otherwise everything would become extinct.

Similarities in creatures do not show evolution it shows design. It shows that something created everything with certain properties. And those properties include the things ability to evolve in an attempt to continue to exist.

There is no way to show that all things evolved from one thing. No one saw it happen. No one can reproduce it happening and no one can test it happening. It's all assumed to have happened and all evolutionists so is point to similarities between creatures and say see it must have happened. It's a faith and belief based system.

Whereas similarities can easily show there was a creator who created and designed life to be as it is.
If any creationist had something real to,say
they'd have no need to resort to such nonsense
and falsehoods.
Presumably, they'd even be too embarrassed.

They'd just submit their contrary data,
disprove the ToE, take their title as discoverer of
the century and watch as the vast wave of
Back to the Bible circled the earth.

Instead, it's made up blather like " to evolutionists
everything is evidence", an insult to the intelligence
of anything more evolved than an ammonite.
 
Upvote 0

Astrid

Well-Known Member
Feb 10, 2021
11,053
3,695
40
Hong Kong
✟188,686.00
Country
Hong Kong
Gender
Female
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
In Relationship
As regards exhibiting a lack of knowledge of both subjects, this takes the gold sash. Let me make this simple for you.

Life started on this planet. We call that abiogenesis. And then it evolved. Here's the deal. I'll accept your claim that God was the One that started the ball rolling. He started life, but we don't know yet how He did it.

Does that in some way deny that evolution happened? No. Does that mean that He didn't use evolution as the process to get from there to here? No. Does that mean that we can't study evolution because we don't know what process God used for abiogenesis? No. Does that mean that after umpteen posts from a variety of people explaining the differences between the two subjects you have understood what is being discussed? No.

And I don't expect that last point to change. Exhibited by the fact that you are asking questions and are being given detailed and concise answers by people who are trying to help you undertsand...but you are simply ignoring them. And therefore wasting everyone's time.
Nope. Sorry ah. Origin of universe is the
foundation of all theory.
Therefore God.
You've simply no aptitude for logic.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

rjs330

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2015
28,088
9,042
65
✟429,523.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Spoken like someone who has no idea what they are talking about.

How do you test your "God did it" idea? Go on, actually tell me. How do you test it? You can't. it's completely untestable. The science, on the other hand, is easily testable. And that's the difference. Religion gives us an untestable, unfalsifiable claim that not only are we told not to question, but has intentionally made itself untestable. Science invites investigation and welcomes the chance to be put to the test.

That's interesting coming from someone who believes in another untestable theory. Oh you can test for similarities among creatures. But all your tests? That all they show. They do not show that evolution happened the way it's claimed. You can't test that either.

All these testable silarities show that there is a design in nature. And if there is a design there is a designer.
 
Upvote 0

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
15,069
5,309
✟327,545.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
A-biogenesis = not from biogenesis = from the dust of the ground.
Deciding that scientists mean something that fits with your religious views doesn't mean that's what the word actually means.

I told you what it means, but I guess this is a case of you denying reality again, huh? How do you put it? Reality can take a hike? That only works if you are happy living in fantasy.

(And no, I am not calling Christianity a fantasy. I am saying that fantasy is what is left when reality is rejected. There are lots of Christians who do not reject reality.)
 
Upvote 0

rjs330

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2015
28,088
9,042
65
✟429,523.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
If any creationist had something real to,say
they'd have no need to resort to such nonsense
and falsehoods.
Presumably, they'd even be too embarrassed.

They'd just submit their contrary data,
disprove the ToE, take their title as discoverer of
the century and watch as the vast wave of
Back to the Bible circled the earth.

Instead, it's made up blather like " to evolutionists
everything is evidence", an insult to the intelligence
of anything more evolved than an ammonite.

Lol, I've discussed this with so many of you evolutionists I know what I'm saying. Everytime something is brought up you know what the answer is? Evolution. Why this or why that? Evolution. Why do chickens have feathers on their legs? Evidence of evolution. Why do spiders have right eyes? Evidence of evolution.

No it's all evidence according to you guys.
 
Upvote 0

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
15,069
5,309
✟327,545.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
That's interesting coming from someone who believes in another untestable theory. Oh you can test for similarities among creatures. But all your tests? That all they show. They do not show that evolution happened the way it's claimed. You can't test that either.

All these testable silarities show that there is a design in nature. And if there is a design there is a designer.
You make lots of claims, but you know what you've never produced? Evidence to back up your claims.

Evolution has evidence, creation does not. So let's see you provide some.
 
Upvote 0