Is YAHWEH andALLAH the same person?

[Armoured]

Well the Orthodox view, implied by the word Orthodox, is that worshipping God correctly is very important.

The entire history of Islam points to Muhammed being under demonic influence - being posessed by a demon masquerading as St. Gabriel, and of Muslims to this day by and laege being systemically coopted by the underlying tenets of their religion into what amounts to accidental devil-worship.

Well, if we are to start claiming that worshipping God "the right way" dictates which God you are actually worshipping, that means no two denominations even worship the same God, let alone major divisions like Jews:Christians!

 

[Armoured]

It's not the same deity.
Why is that so hard to accept?

Because it flies in the face of historical fact.

 

[Wgw]

Well, if we are to start claiming that worshipping God "the right way" dictates which God you are actually worshipping, that means no two denominations even worship the same God, let alone major divisions like Jews:Christians!

Such a view would not be inimical to Orthodoxy, although we tend to be somewhat more ecumenically minded.

 

[Bible Page]

Because it flies in the face of historical fact.

Neo-historic fiction but not historical fact.
For Christians, Jesus was the son of God, the prophesied Messiah fulfilling scriptures. Christians believe that as historical fact.
Anything that states otherwise is heresy.

Imagining that it's the same god just different beliefs is the crux of the issue. Muslims aren't saved. They haven't repented of their sins, they haven't accepted Jesus as their savior, they don't believe Jesus is the son of God and the Messiah.

Beliefs is the whole picture, the entire platform of the issue. It is not the same God when the beliefs that concern the believer are radically opposed.

 

[prodromos]

Yahweh, worshipped by Christians and Allah, worshipped by Muslims are not the same person because Yahweh is three persons and Allah is one person.
Christians worship Father, Son and Holy Spirit, one God. Quite different from nameless Allah of Islam.

That is my worthless opinion anyway

 

[Armoured]

Neo-historic fiction but not historical fact.
For Christians, Jesus was the son of God, the prophesied Messiah fulfilling scriptures. Christians believe that as historical fact.
Anything that states otherwise is heresy.

Imagining that it's the same god just different beliefs is the crux of the issue. Muslims aren't saved. They haven't repented of their sins, they haven't accepted Jesus as their savior, they don't believe Jesus is the son of God and the Messiah.

Beliefs is the whole picture, the entire platform of the issue. It is not the same God when the beliefs that concern the believer are radically opposed.

Belief isn't the whole picture, if you believe in a literal, historical Jesus and God.

Muslim and Christian beliefs are different. Of course. No one suggests otherwise. But they are different beliefs about the same deity.

Try, for example, this; Some believe Obama is a monster, some believe he is wonderful. The beliefs about him could not be more opposite. Yet no one suggests there are two different Presidents. So it is here.

Jews, for instance, believe different things again, but would you say Jews don't believe in the same God as Christians?

 

[Wgw]

Belief isn't the whole picture, if you believe in a literal, historical Jesus and God.

Muslim and Christian beliefs are different. Of course. No one suggests otherwise. But they are different beliefs about the same deity.

Try, for example, this; Some believe Obama is a monster, some believe he is wonderful. The beliefs about him could not be more opposite. Yet no one suggests there are two different Presidents. So it is here.

Jews, for instance, believe different things again, but would you say Jews don't believe in the same God as Christians?

Well, in the time of our Lord they did believe in the same deity. However since then the Rabinnical theology at least has become so distorted that I do not think we can accept uncritically the idea that the same God is worshipped by both, due to the dominance in Rabinnical theology of the Kabbalah.

Kabbalah is an emanationist scheme which inckudes a divine feminine, and is analogous to Gnostic theology, albeit with differences in cosmology, eschatology and soteriology. It is fairly radically different from Trinitarian Christian theology, or even a unitary theology such as that associated with Islam, Samaritanism or Karaite Judaism.

So ironically, from a purely theological perspective, the vast majority of Jews worship a deity further from the Christian conception, or perhaps I should say at least as different from the Christian conception, as that of the Muslims. The closest relatives to the contemporary Rabinnical view of God would be the God of the Mandaeans and of the various neo-Gnostic sects.

 

[Armoured]

Well, in the time of our Lord they did believe in the same deity. However since then the Rabinnical theology at least has become so distorted that I do not think we can accept uncritically the idea that the same God is worshipped by both, due to the dominance in Rabinnical theology of the Kabbalah.

Kabbalah is an emanationist scheme which inckudes a divine feminine, and is analogous to Gnostic theology, albeit with differences in cosmology, eschatology and soteriology. It is fairly radically different from Trinitarian Christian theology, or even a unitary theology such as that associated with Islam, Samaritanism or Karaite Judaism.

So ironically, from a purely theological perspective, the vast majority of Jews worship a deity further from the Christian conception, or perhaps I should say at least as different from the Christian conception, as that of the Muslims. The closest relatives to the contemporary Rabinnical view of God would be the God of the Mandaeans and of the various neo-Gnostic sects.

I think we have different ideas about what constitutes "worshipping the same God".

For me, the manner of worship does not affect the nature of what is worshipped.

 

[Bible Page]

Yeshuas_My_Freedom was right.

Belief isn't the whole picture, if you believe in a literal, historical Jesus and God.

Muslim and Christian beliefs are different. Of course. No one suggests otherwise. But they are different beliefs about the same deity.

Try, for example, this; Some believe Obama is a monster, some believe he is wonderful. The beliefs about him could not be more opposite. Yet no one suggests there are two different Presidents. So it is here.

Jews, for instance, believe different things again, but would you say Jews don't believe in the same God as Christians?

 

[Armoured]

Yeshuas_My_Freedom was right.

Nope. There's heaps of religions that don't worship the same God. Hindu Gods are not the same as the Christian God, for example.

But Muslims, Jews and Christians all worship the same God, can all demonstrate unbroken lineage back to the same prophets and patriarchs. They're different. They worship the same God though.

 

[Wgw]

I think we have different ideas about what constitutes "worshipping the same God".

For me, the manner of worship does not affect the nature of what is worshipped.

It is not merely a question of worship but about theology...an understanding of what is being worshipped.

 

[Yeshuas_My_Freedom]

It is not merely a question of worship but about theology...an understanding of what is being worshipped.

That and why and for what purpose for the one giving worship.

The faith factor is paramount.Yeshua said no one comes to the Father but through him.

The faith factor is key in every religion. It is the root of worship and the purpose of belief that sustains in this life and affords promise in the after life. Giving worship to God through faith in Yeshua the Christ , the only way to the Father, is the crux of the issue.
Giving praise to allah affords damnation. If it is the same god with different perspectives or ways of holding faith in him then Christians could hold to the tenets of Islam and still see Heaven.

That's not how it works. The faiths are different because the teachings about the different god's are different. And when those teachings, that theology ,that doctrine, is different then the god is not the same because the god of all traditions inspired humans with his spirit to hold faith in him in certain ways.
Allah instructed Muhammad after he arrived before him and told him to take the message of what is today Islam back to the people of the middle east.
This occurred when the angel Gabriel appeared before 40 year old Muhammad and brought him to a winged horse, some myths put this horse as a monstrosity of different parts, and it flew Muhammad to the upper heaven to meet allah. And in that first revelation allah told Muhammad he was to speak to the polytheistic pagan people of his home region and deliver allah's revelation to them.

Does that sound like Christianity? No.

 

[Armoured]

It is not merely a question of worship but about theology...an understanding of what is being worshipped.

If I believe that thing over there is a rock, and you believe it is a cow, that doesn't alter the reality of the thing over there, does it?

 

[Bible Page]

Nope. There's heaps of religions that don't worship the same God. Hindu Gods are not the same as the Christian God, for example.

But Muslims, Jews and Christians all worship the same God, can all demonstrate unbroken lineage back to the same prophets and patriarchs. They're different. They worship the same God though.

Keep thinking that. It's a false teaching and is not and never will be true.
Christians know this. The old testament says, thou shalt have no other god's before me. Allah did not send Jesus to save the world. That's not in the Koran. Isa, Jesus, is in the Koran. He's allah's slave. He is not allah's son. Allah begat no sons.
Therefore, it is not the same god. The beliefs are different is possibly the lamest rhetoric one can muster in order to broadcast heresy here.
There is one way to Heaven as Christians know. And it is not having faith in allah only. It is having faith in Jesus Christ. When you deny that you've lost the argument.

 

[Armoured]

That and why and for what purpose for the one giving worship.

The faith factor is paramount.Yeshua said no one comes to the Father but through him.

The faith factor is key in every religion. It is the root of worship and the purpose of belief that sustains in this life and affords promise in the after life. Giving worship to God through faith in Yeshua the Christ , the only way to the Father, is the crux of the issue.
Giving praise to allah affords damnation. If it is the same god with different perspectives or ways of holding faith in him then Christians could hold to the tenets of Islam and still see Heaven.

That's not how it works. The faiths are different because the teachings about the different god's are different. And when those teachings, that theology ,that doctrine, is different then the god is not the same because the god of all traditions inspired humans with his spirit to hold faith in him in certain ways.
Allah instructed Muhammad after he arrived before him and told him to take the message of what is today Islam back to the people of the middle east.
This occurred when the angel Gabriel appeared before 40 year old Muhammad and brought him to a winged horse, some myths put this horse as a monstrosity of different parts, and it flew Muhammad to the upper heaven to meet allah. And in that first revelation allah told Muhammad he was to speak to the polytheistic pagan people of his home region and deliver allah's revelation to them.

Does that sound like Christianity? No.

No one's arguing the Muslim beliefs about God are correct.

 

[Wgw]

If I believe that thing over there is a rock, and you believe it is a cow, that doesn't alter the reality of the thing over there, does it?

No, it does however alter the dynamic intentions of the worship. If you worship a rock believing it to be a cow, you are a cow-worshipper.

Speaking of which, regarding Hinduism, one could argue their pantheistic deity is envisaged in a manner closer to Christianity with the Trimurti school of Advaita Vedanta, than Islam or Judaism. I would not be the one to make this argument, but I have seen it made and articulated with some panache.

 

[Yeshuas_My_Freedom]

That's true. Christians do know this.

Non-Christians bait the issue and hope like all get out that those they hope to persuade are stupid.
If allah was the same god as that of the Christians Muslims wouldn't make news in the middle east having cut the heads off Christian children for not converting to Islam.
They'd not make news having slaughtered Christians because those Muslims would concur that they're all worshiping the same god just having different beliefs.
The blood that flows in the middle east, and in America too when muslims make the news killing Christians, proves that it is not a same god different faith matter for those muslims. It is a different religion all together. And the obvious fact supporting that is that Christians don't believe Muhammad is the way, the truth, and the life. Nor is there a single scripture in the new testament that says, no one comes to the father save through belief in the mortal immoral man, Muhammad.

See, if it was the same god, then that god is insane.

But the Bible tells us God is not a man that he should lie.

If that God that said that is the same god as is that which is worshiped in Islam, then god in the Bible did lie!
He's insane and he suffers a combination of multiple personality disorder with amnesia.

For the god of Islam to be the God of the Christians and the Jews, remembering that Islam arrived in 622A.D., that's key too, that god would have had to, in order of appearance, told the Jews he would send a Messiah to save the world. Then , per the new testament testimony, he would have fulfilled that prophecy through Mary and delivered Yeshua, who was God incarnate, to the world. In what is said to be 1A.D. or as some scholars theorize the year 6 or 7A.d.
Then Yeshua would have had to deliver his message of salvation to the people of the middle east, told them that no one comes to God the Father but through belief in him and following the plan of atonement, redemption, salvation, that Yeshua taught in the course of his ministry. And then he'd have to die on the cross so as to deliver the message of the cross, the final sacrifice as he became the propitiation for our sins. He'd then have to be laid to rest in a tomb, rise in three days, walk the earth for 40 days and ascend to Heaven.
Then in 622A.D that same god that arranged all that, would have to forget the whole thing! Vacate Yeshua's status as his son, relegate him to the status of minor prophet, and slave to himself on earth, while sending an angel to a thief, a rapist, murderer, a pedophile, and an illiterate merchant named Muhammad so as to tell him to come out of his hut and mount a winged horse because that god wanted to have a chat.
And complying, that illiterate merchant, rapist, thief, murderer, and pedophile, would have then been flown on the back of that horse to allah's heaven so as to be told the story of how the pagan polytheists in the middle east, remember over 580 years after the middle east was being converted to monotheism and Christ, so as to believe in allah. Who is one god, no trinity, no son, and who's only prophet would be that illiterate, rapist, thief, murderer, pedophile.

That's what you'd have to accept as true in order to believe the God you worship today is allah.
You'd have to believe that the God you worship is insane! Suffers multiple personality disorder and amnesia.
He sent his son, himself in flesh, to save the world. Then he sent an immoral illiterate merchant to teach everything that contradicts the first prophet named Yeshua/Jesus, whom he then taught was not his actual son but was his slave.
And then he'd have to teach through Muhammad there is no baptism, there is no repentance, and of course, Yeshua did not die to take the sins of the world upon himself.

Yep, that's what you'd have to accept in those 'different beliefs' about the 'same' god if you accept that the God you worship as a Christian is the same one as is worshiped by muslims.

Keep thinking that. It's a false teaching and is not and never will be true.
Christians know this. The old testament says, thou shalt have no other god's before me. Allah did not send Jesus to save the world. That's not in the Koran. Isa, Jesus, is in the Koran. He's allah's slave. He is not allah's son. Allah begat no sons.
Therefore, it is not the same god. The beliefs are different is possibly the lamest rhetoric one can muster in order to broadcast heresy here.
There is one way to Heaven as Christians know. And it is not having faith in allah only. It is having faith in Jesus Christ. When you deny that you've lost the argument.

 

[Armoured]

No, it does however alter the dynamic intentions of the worship. If you worship a rock believing it to be a cow, you are a cow-worshipper.

But the question wasn't about what type of worshipper you are. It's about the object of worship[/QUOTE]
Speaking of which, regarding Hinduism, one could argue their pantheistic deity is envisaged in a manner closer to Christianity with the Trimurti school of Advaita Vedanta, than Islam or Judaism. I would not be the one to make this argument, but I have seen it made and articulated with some panache.[/QUOTE]
I have seen it suggested that Jesus was influenced by Eastern religions before. I don't believe it myself, but it's an interesting idea.

 

[Armoured]

That's true. Christians do know this.

Non-Christians bait the issue and hope like all get out that those they hope to persuade are stupid.
If allah was the same god as that of the Christians Muslims wouldn't make news in the middle east having cut the heads off Christian children for not converting to Islam.
They'd not make news having slaughtered Christians because those Muslims would concur that they're all worshiping the same god just having different beliefs.
The blood that flows in the middle east, and in America too when muslims make the news killing Christians, proves that it is not a same god different faith matter for those muslims. It is a different religion all together. And the obvious fact supporting that is that Christians don't believe Muhammad is the way, the truth, and the life. Nor is there a single scripture in the new testament that says, no one comes to the father save through belief in the mortal immoral man, Muhammad.

See, if it was the same god, then that god is insane.

But the Bible tells us God is not a man that he should lie.

If that God that said that is the same god as is that which is worshiped in Islam, then god in the Bible did lie!
He's insane and he suffers a combination of multiple personality disorder with amnesia.

For the god of Islam to be the God of the Christians and the Jews, remembering that Islam arrived in 622A.D., that's key too, that god would have had to, in order of appearance, told the Jews he would send a Messiah to save the world. Then , per the new testament testimony, he would have fulfilled that prophecy through Mary and delivered Yeshua, who was God incarnate, to the world. In what is said to be 1A.D. or as some scholars theorize the year 6 or 7A.d.
Then Yeshua would have had to deliver his message of salvation to the people of the middle east, told them that no one comes to God the Father but through belief in him and following the plan of atonement, redemption, salvation, that Yeshua taught in the course of his ministry. And then he'd have to die on the cross so as to deliver the message of the cross, the final sacrifice as he became the propitiation for our sins. He'd then have to be laid to rest in a tomb, rise in three days, walk the earth for 40 days and ascend to Heaven.
Then in 622A.D that same god that arranged all that, would have to forget the whole thing! Vacate Yeshua's status as his son, relegate him to the status of minor prophet, and slave to himself on earth, while sending an angel to a thief, a rapist, murderer, a pedophile, and an illiterate merchant named Muhammad so as to tell him to come out of his hut and mount a winged horse because that god wanted to have a chat.
And complying, that illiterate merchant, rapist, thief, murderer, and pedophile, would have then been flown on the back of that horse to allah's heaven so as to be told the story of how the pagan polytheists in the middle east, remember over 580 years after the middle east was being converted to monotheism and Christ, so as to believe in allah. Who is one god, no trinity, no son, and who's only prophet would be that illiterate, rapist, thief, murderer, pedophile.

That's what you'd have to accept as true in order to believe the God you worship today is allah.
You'd have to believe that the God you worship is insane! Suffers multiple personality disorder and amnesia.
He sent his son, himself in flesh, to save the world. Then he sent an immoral illiterate merchant to teach everything that contradicts the first prophet named Yeshua/Jesus, whom he then taught was not his actual son but was his slave.
And then he'd have to teach through Muhammad there is no baptism, there is no repentance, and of course, Yeshua did not die to take the sins of the world upon himself.

Yep, that's what you'd have to accept in those 'different beliefs' about the 'same' god if you accept that the God you worship as a Christian is the same one as is worshiped by muslims.

Stop confusing "beliefs about the deity" with the deity itself. Christians and Muslims believe different things. For the nth time, no one disputes this. However, they are both worshipping the same deity, different as their beliefs about that deity may be.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

Christians, Jews, and Muslims all believe in the God of Abraham. Anyone who doesn't know that doesn't know much about religion. Muslims even believe that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah- it's straight up stated in the Qur'an. The primary difference is that they don't believe Jesus is the Son of God, and rather think he and Mohammad are co-prophets. This stems all the way back to Abraham's sons, Isaac and Ishmael, with one being the father of the Jews and the other the father of the Arabs.