Is Universal Salvation In Conflict With The Nicene Creed?

[Wayne Gabler]

Well, I am truly sorry to hear that attacking others is a meaningful experience for you.

What is the One Baptism of Universal Salvation and how does it apply to the lost?


God bless.

I'm going to reply to one of your posts per day. You ability to connect some terms to events in your past is, well totally missing so they either never happened or the memory has gone down the rabbit hole. Either one makes you somebody I should not chat with as you are sure to get even more confused that you currently appear to be.
For some, once a Pilgrim, always a Pilgrim:

 

[P1LGR1M]

They do need to be baptized. They do need to believe. I didn't say otherwise. But if God, by His own power and grace chooses to save someone apart from the ordinary means of grace, then that's His prerogative.

And why are people baptized?

So they can profess Christ as Savior or because they already are?

And if they are not baptized and thus regenerated, how exactly do they see or perceive the Kingdom of God?


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

There's nothing reasonable about the Gospel. St. Paul calls it the foolishness of God, but it is the foolishness of God that makes the wisdom of the world itself foolish.

And so we boast in the foolishness and weakness of God, not the reason and strength of this world.

1 Corinthians 1:18-31

Somehow I just don't think Paul meant it as you define his meaning here.

The Gospel is reasonable, logical, and is the Hidden Wisdom of God.

It is only unreasonable and foolishness to them that are perishing.


God bless.

 

[ViaCrucis]

So you do not acknowledge the Baptism with the Holy Ghost?

I just said I did. It's what happened two thousand years ago as recorded in the Acts of the Apostles. If you want me to believe in some other kind of baptism with the Holy Spirit then you need to convince me with Scripture.

You do not acknowledge the Baptism with Fire?

I don't have a dogmatic position on the meaning of "and with fire" means in the text. It could refer to the tongues of flame which are mentioned in Acts chapter 2, or it could possibly refer to the fire of persecution that the Church would experience, or it could refer to the fire of judgment which happens at the end of the age. But I don't know.

As far as the holy baptism you refer to, and the preaching of the Gospel, what do they matter if God can save men outside of those elements?

Because Jesus Christ told His Church to go and make disciples, to preach the Gospel, to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. And Scripture is clear that through Word and Sacrament God works to save.

If God, unbeknownst to us, then goes and saves a tribe of people living on an island who are about to perish in a tsunami, what is that to you? He can do whatever He wants, He's God.

Are you now saying there are some boxes that need to be checked?


Continued...

Nope. I still believe that God freely meets us sinners through His means of grace and that Jesus Christ died once and for all for the sins of the world; and that there is no other name by which anyone can be saved.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Wayne Gabler]

There is only one means of remission of sins, and the New Testament is consistent on that.

Consider:


Colossians 1:14
King James Version

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:


Are you willing to say that one does not have to believe in Christ in order to receive remission of sins?

Secondly, do you distinguish between this remission and all others?


Continued...

You would agree that all these people will be saved then?
Heb:12:22-26:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling,
that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh.
For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth,
much more shall not we escape,
if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
Whose voice then shook the earth:
but now he hath promised,
saying,
Yet once more I shake not the earth only,
but also heaven.

 

[ViaCrucis]

And why are people baptized?

For the remission of sins, Acts of the Apostles 2:38

So they can profess Christ as Savior or because they already are?

Yes, the Church expects that those who are Christians to profess faith in Christ. After all the Apostle says that if we believe in our heart and confess with our mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and that God raised Him up then we are saved. That's why we need to be on the receiving end of God's grace, that we might have faith, to believe and confess those things.

And if they are not baptized and thus regenerated, how exactly do they see or perceive the Kingdom of God?

Continued...

If one professes to believe in Jesus but haven't yet received Baptism, then they should go get baptized. There's no excuse not to. But like I said, Word and Sacrament. I have no doubt that a professing Christian is a Christian and that their faith is real even if they haven't been baptized; but they still need to go get baptized.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[P1LGR1M]

P1LGR1M said: ↑
No, God doesn't work "through Word and Sacrament."

He absolutely does.

Then why do you say...

P1LGR1M said: ↑


That is just sometimes. That is just for some people.


Sometimes, perhaps, though we don't know, God may save people apart from Word and Sacrament. But we can't possibly know this one way or the other.

You just posted a rather long statement about God's "absolute power," how can you now say "we don't know?"


Continued...

 

[Wayne Gabler]

It is only unreasonable and foolishness to them that are perishing.

God cannot cause a person to 'believe a lie' and then punish him eternally? Why didn't Jonah stay in hell if nobody gets out of there?
The 2nd group in Re:7 have been in hell as that is what 'Great Tribulation' is, they appear to be saved and enjoying life with God right in front of them.

 

[P1LGR1M]

P1LGR1M said: ↑

And I hate to say it, but you seem to place forgiveness into a singular usage. Is there a difference between faith and saving faith? Is there a difference between belief and saving belief?

Do we see a distinction in Scripture concerning differing beliefs and differing faiths?


Continued...

I assumed that by "faith" we would know that the only faith being spoken about is the faith that comes from outside of ourselves as the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8), namely faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

No need to assume, because the question didn't ask which faith or what faith we are speaking about.

Is there a difference between faith and saving faith? Is there a difference between belief and saving belief?

Do we see a distinction in Scripture concerning differing beliefs and differing faiths?


Please answer the question.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

P1LGR1M said: ↑

And teaching that water baptism is the means of remission of sins but it isn't necessary is what has been revealed to us?

Would you mind showing me in Scripture where that particular teaching can be found?


Continued...

No, what has been revealed to us is that God forgives sins through baptism (Acts 2:38) because in that baptism we are united to Christ's death, burial, and resurrection (Romans 6:3-4, Colossians 2:12-13), having been clothed with Christ (Galatians 3:27) and are born again (John 3:3-5).

-CryptoLutheran

If sins are forgiven through baptism and baptism isn't necessary aren't you saying being forgiven isn't necessary?

Regeneration isn't necessary?

Where exactly have these things been revealed to us?


Continued...

 

[ViaCrucis]

There is only one means of remission of sins, and the New Testament is consistent on that.

Consider:


Colossians 1:14
King James Version

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:


Are you willing to say that one does not have to believe in Christ in order to receive remission of sins?

Secondly, do you distinguish between this remission and all others?


Continued...

Amen, it is only by the blood of Christ that we are forgiven. Which is precisely why in baptism we, having died and been buried with Christ, have been raised to new life with Christ, our sins having been washed away. And it's that same and very blood which is right there in the Eucharist, the blood He shed for us on Mt. Calvary. Our sins forgiven by His precious blood. It is because He shed His blood that when a pastor speaks by the name and authority of Christ the words of Absolution that whoever's sins are forgiven are truly forgiven--that they are truly forgiven.

It is only by the blood of the Lamb, the precious blood of Jesus Christ which He shed on Calvary. His work is once and perfect, accomplished, and for all. That's why there is forgiveness here in Word and Sacrament.

It is only through faith that we are justified. Justified by grace alone, through faith alone, on Christ's account alone.

All forgiveness is forgiveness. There aren't different kinds of remission, there's just the forgiveness and remission of sins which Christ accomplished by His perfect and finished atoning work, by His death and resurrection. Which is for us, for you, for me, for all sinners. Christ died for the sins of the whole world.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[P1LGR1M]

P1LGR1M said: ↑

What exactly is the means of forgiveness for those who reject Christ? Who die and go into Hades to await the Lake of Fire?


Continued...

If there is any, and there's no way we could know if there even is, then God alone knows. God alone is Judge. So why would I speculate?

Isn't that precisely what you are doing?

You are saying God will forgive by another means than the "one baptism you acknowledge for the remission of sins" which you are teaching as not only the means of remission of sins but as the means of regeneration.

Here you state directly that you, at least, know of no means that has been revealed. But you did quite a long post teaching how water baptism isn't necessary after all and that God can save by His absolute power.

That did not sound to me like speculation, but a direct doctrinal declaration.

And Universal Salvationist agreed with it. It helped give him an excuse not to answer the question, "What is the one baptism of Universal Salvation."

It's just a simple fact: Universal Salvation does not acknowledge any baptism for the remission of sins for the lost because the lost have not been forgiven.

And the lost will never be forgiven.

We know this because Scripture makes this very clear over and over.


God bless.

 

[ViaCrucis]

If sins are forgiven through baptism and baptism isn't necessary aren't you saying being forgiven isn't necessary?

Regeneration isn't necessary?

This is what I mean by legalism and using checkboxes. I don't know how much more clear I could be: God forgives us through baptism. God forgives us through the preaching of the Gospel. God forgives us in the Supper. God forgives us, His mercy is a neverceasing and everflowing fountain which has no limit.

It's not "do this, do this, and also this too, and if you don't then well you're screwed", it's "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever trusts in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." That's what Baptism is about.

Where exactly have these things been revealed to us?


Continued...

Where have God's promises which are attached to baptism been revealed to us? I'm not sure why I quote and reference Scripture if you are going to just ignore it when I do.

But very well: Acts of the Apostles 2:38, John 3:3-5, Romans 6:3-4, Colossians 2:12-13, Galatians 3:27, 1 Peter 3:21, Ephesians 5:26, Titus 3:5

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

We are clearly just going around in circles at this point. So is there really a point in continuing this?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[P1LGR1M]

Salvation is not a list of boxes that must be checked off.
P1LGR1M said: ↑

It is for some:

Oh, I'm aware. I grew up in churches that treated salvation that way.

It is not box-checking to say men must be baptized in water and partake of Communion?

Those boxes can be left unchecked?

How about believing? Is demanding men believe in Jesus Christ and be born again box-checking? Religiosity? Religious endeavors that have nothing to do with how God saves?


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

P1LGR1M said: ↑
Or are you saying that remission of sins isn't actually necessary?

Without forgiveness we are dead and damned in our sin.

I agree, hence my repeated question: what is the one baptism of Universal Salvation and how does that apply to the lost?

Is being dead the damnation Christ and the Apostles teach?


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

We are clearly just going around in circles at this point. So is there really a point in continuing this?

-CryptoLutheran

Only if you answer the questions.




God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

P1LGR1M said: ↑

Should a Christian partake of Communion?

Yes, a thousand percent yes. Christ gives Himself to us, His own body and blood for the forgiveness of our sins, here in His Supper. We should take every opportunity we can to receive His Holy Supper.

And that isn't box-checking?

So at this point, I have seen that you teach it is okay to "acknowledge" there is one baptism for the remission of sins but it isn't actually necessary that men be water baptized or regenerated to be saved (because God can save according to His absolute power as well). Correct me if I am wrong about that up to this point.

So if these two elements aren't necessary are you forced to say that Communion is not necessary either?

It is pretty obvious the lost have not been water baptized, and have not been regenerated.

If a lost man is water-baptized will he be forgiven and regenerated despite rejecting Christ?

If a lost man partakes of Communion does it have any value?


Continued...

 

[ViaCrucis]

It is not box-checking to say men must be baptized in water and partake of Communion?

Those boxes can be left unchecked?

How about believing? Is demanding men believe in Jesus Christ and be born again box-checking? Religiosity? Religious endeavors that have nothing to do with how God saves?


Continued...

God working to give us faith and to forgive us through His Means of grace isn't box-checking, no. Believing is what happens when we have faith. And it is God who gives faith.

I agree, hence my repeated question: what is the one baptism of Universal Salvation and how does that apply to the lost?

Is being dead the damnation Christ and the Apostles teach?


Continued...

I don't know what a "baptism of universal salvation" means. I'm also not a universalist.

But the one baptism which Ephesians 4:5, and which the Nicene Creed mentions, which is for the remission of sins is Baptism, just regular, ordinary, Christian Baptism.

Are your questions thus satisfactory answered?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[P1LGR1M]

P1LGR1M said: ↑

Is it okay if one decides they don't want to fellowship regularly with other Christians, and choose never to go into a House of the Lord to worship?

No. It is at our gathering together that God works His Means of Word and Sacrament. If we cut ourselves off from the Body of Christ then we cut ourselves off from Christ Himself.

Isn't that box-checking?

Salvation is not a list of boxes that must be checked off.

Not going to church is "cutting ourselves off from Christ?"

Our union with Christ demands we go to church?


Continued...