Is Universal Salvation In Conflict With The Nicene Creed?

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P1LGR1M

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P1LGR1M said:

Do the things you list above have no real value?


I don't even know how you can ask that as though it were a genuine Christian. Not only do they have real value, they are central to what it means to be a Christian. Apart from Christ we are lost.

As though what is a genuine Christian?

We cannot remain in Christ except we receive remission (and multiple ways were stated as to how that is accomplished), remain going to church, and partake of Communion?

If we stop doing those things we are cut off from Christ?

I'm sorry, but that sounds an awful lot like box-checking to me.


I know, speaking personally, when there have been times where I've had prolonged absence I can literally feel the absence. My soul is parched, I hunger and thirst for God's word, I yearn for the Lord's Supper. I hungrily yearn for His mercy and forgiveness. Apart from these things my flesh is bolstered, the old man seeks to dominate; for I am weak and without strength of myself. It is only in Christ, Christ and only in Christ, that I have life of any kind.

I agree, but what you are describing is not being in Christ, it is being in the Church.

Regular fellowship is important in a number of ways such as being a place where we can express our worship, sing unto the Lord, give offerings for the furtherance of the Kingdom, love other believers, and it gives an accountability that we don't have when we lone ranger it.

But it doesn't keep us in Christ, my friend.

If you are trusting in your church attendance to remain in Christ then you are trusting in the wrong Source for Eternal Life.


God bless.
 
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P1LGR1M

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Baptism with the Holy Spirit isn't how people are baptized into Christ. The Baptism with the Holy Spirit is what happened when the Holy Spirit was poured out on Pentecost. Twice the Holy Spirit fell, the first time was on Pentecost, and the second time was on the household of Cornelius. This is can be seen easily by simply reading the Scriptures that talk about these things. In the first chapter of the Acts of the Apostles Jesus tells His disciples to wait in Jerusalem until they receive power from on high, when they receive the gift from the Father, in fulfillment of what John the Baptist said, "I baptize you with water, but the One who comes after me will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire". Then in the 10th chapter of the Acts Peter received a vision, and went to preach to Cornelius and his household--Gentiles--when Peter did this, something amazing happened--the Holy Spirit came upon them just as He had done with the 120 in Jerusalem in the beginning, and so Peter immediately ordered Cornelius and his entire household to be baptized and received into the Church. When Peter went back down to Jerusalem the Jerusalem leadership questioned him about why he had Gentiles baptized, so Peter recounted what happened--and that he remembered the words spoken before, concerning baptism with the Holy Spirit. Peter's report can be read in the 11th chapter of the Acts.

You can go and read these things for yourself.

The OP deals with why I reject Baptismal Regeneration.

The Baptism that takes place in Acts 10 and 11 is the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, and it is the baptism by which Cornelius and his house were saved. The Gospel is the Word by which they were saved. They received repentance unto Life by that Baptism, so it is kind of a no-brainer that it is the Baptism with the Holy Ghost which is the One Baptism. I would think the early Church Fathers would understand that.

But as I said, what you determine to be the One Baptism of the Creed is irrelevant. What is relevant is what is the One Baptism of Universal Salvation and how does that apply to the lost?

Simply saying "The one baptism is water baptism and it isn't really necessary" just doesn't quite answer the question in my opinion.


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P1LGR1M

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The baptism with the Holy Spirit which happened as recorded in the Acts of the Apostles really did happen. It already happened. Just as Scripture says.

I agree. As stated in the OP I view this as the only plausible Baptism to be the One Baptism of Ephesians 4 because it is the only baptism that is salvific.

You can deny this is how we are baptized in Christ, that is your right. If you want to say that men place other men into Christ that is certainly your right.

But what you can't do is show that the lost are baptized in any way other than being baptized with fire. They are chaff that go into unquenchable fire. They are the trees that the axe already lays at the roots of.

Those baptized with the Holy Ghost wil be gathered into His garner, but the chaff shall He destroy with unquenchable fire.

Can you see any remission of sins for those baptized with fire?


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P1LGR1M

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As long as they don't turn away from Christ and disown God's promises. If someone becomes a Christian and then walks away and rejects Christ we call that apostasy. And sadly, apostasy happens. I personally know a number of people who, though raised up in the faith later on turned away and no longer believe. Which is why we reach out to them and call them back to Christ.

So they are now lost again?

THey were in Christ and indwelt of God but now they aren't?

What is the fruit that makes this a surety to you? They no longer go to church? I'll be honest, some of the things I have seen people who say they are Christians do perfectly justify some people not wanting to have anything to do with the church.

They no longer take Communion? You do understand that Jesus Christ is the Life-Giver, not your pastor, right?

You do understand what a memorial is, don't you?

Are the firstborn of Israel still saved from death every time Jews celebrate Passover?

Does Christ die again on the Cross every time we partake of Communion?

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P1LGR1M

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I don't presume to say what God does or doesn't have to do. He's God.

But you do. You very much do. You presume to say that men do not have to be baptized, they do not have to be regenerated, and they do not have to believe in Christ.

God says they do. Christ says they do. Scripture says they do.


Because it's the only baptism in which our sins are remitted.

"There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." - Ephesians 4:4-6

lol

Okay, ViaCrucis. Paul can speak of the One Body which we are because of the One Spirit and One God and Father in all of us because of the One Faith in the One Lord and it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that the One Baptism is a rite that is the memorial of His death, burial, and Resurrection.

You can also conclude that it isn't necessary after all.

Scripture does not. Christ does not.

The Baptism with the Holy Ghost is the only Salvific Baptism spoken of in Scripture. Remission of sins is based on Christ dying to pay the penalty for sins and it is through believing in Him and specifically in His vicarious death by which we are saved.

Baptismal Regeneration is one of the doctrines I view to be such blatant error that I cannot for the life of me figure out how anyone could possibly embrace it.

Nevertheless, that is not the point.

What is the One Baptism of Universal Salvation and how does it apply to the lost?

You can say it doesn't matter, water baptism and regeneration are not necessary, but that doesn't answer how exactly Universal Salvation acknowledges the one baptism of the Creed. If there were a distinct doctrine they could present, then why are we only seeing feeble attempts to excuse the fact that the lost are not going to receive baptism for the remission of sins?

They will be baptized with fire only. That is the consistent teaching of Christ and the Apostles.


God bless.
 
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P1LGR1M

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I think this is easily demonstrated false by the fact that even in our own day-to-day experiences we find that there are occasionally exceptions to the rule. Most people need to work to get paid, but some people get paid for nothing, such as when someone wins the lottery. That doesn't mean it stops being necessary to go do our 9 to 5 in order to get a paycheck, to pay the bills. The person winning a millions dollars is an exception, not the rule. And I'm sure if you stop and think for long enough you'll probably come up with all kinds of examples where things are ordinarily necessary but that occasionally exceptions happen; thus not being absolutely necessary.

We aren't talking about day-to-day, we are talking about how people are saved.

That's just a little bit exclusive, isn't it? Can we not separate this issue from all others? Is it not the big question that divides all of the groups, denominations, cults, and religions?


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P1LGR1M

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I'm sure it seems that way from where you sit. But I'm not. I'm simply affirming the revealed truth of God's revelation which we have in Christ and saying that God Himself is free to do whatever He wants, because He's God.

I doubt we are really all that different in that regard.

Probably not, lol. It might seem a little nit-picky to thresh out specific issues but I feel it is important.


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P1LGR1M

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Do you believe it is necessary to have faith in Jesus Christ to be saved? I do.

I just don't see you saying that: if you believe men are regenerated by water baptism yet you don't think it is necessary to be water baptized and regenerated—how exactly can you say you believe men must have faith in Christ to be saved?

If they are not regenerated we can say for certain that they don't have faith in Christ, because those who place their faith in Christ are born again. They are born of God. That is how we overcome.

No one that is not born again is saved. That is just basic to the Gospel and to Bible Doctrine.


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P1LGR1M

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Do you believe that everyone who never heard the Gospel is therefore damned? I don't.

No, because 1) the Gospel was a mystery (unrevealed truth) until Pentecost, 2) there is a specific point in time when God manifest in the flesh, died in the sinner's stead, and men began calling on the Name of Jesus Christ, and 3) I personally believe there are many who have never heard the Gospel in this world, even today.

If the world is relying on the gospels that are being taught on this forum (and I don't mean all of them) then the world would be hurtin' for certain.

God trying to use that which is not the Gospel of Christ as He brings conviction to unbelievers is like a golfer trying to do 18 rounds with a straw and a bowling ball.

And nowhere in Scripture do we see commandment to go out and preach "Baptism isn't necessary, believing in Christ isn't necessary, and being born again isn't necessary."


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P1LGR1M

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ViaCrucis said: ↑

I acknowledge only one baptism (Christian Baptism) in which sins are forgiven. But forgiveness of sin isn't found only in baptism, that certainly isn't what the authors of the Creed believed. Because in the Church we are surrounded by God's forgiveness. In Word and Sacrament, all the time. God is constantly telling us we are forgiven on Christ's account. In the waters of Holy Baptism, in the preaching of the Gospel every Sunday, in the words of Scripture that we hear and read, in the Lord's Supper, in Confession and Absolution.



I just said I did. It's what happened two thousand years ago as recorded in the Acts of the Apostles. If you want me to believe in some other kind of baptism with the Holy Spirit then you need to convince me with Scripture.

The point is there is more than one baptism.

And there is only one baptism with the Holy Ghost.

And I am not the one that can convince you, only God can do that. I can only give that which I feel to be truth and the Scripture I support my views with and let you give it consideration.

Perhaps you could just explain your understanding of the Baptism with the Holy Ghost.


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P1LGR1M

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I don't have a dogmatic position on the meaning of "and with fire" means in the text. It could refer to the tongues of flame which are mentioned in Acts chapter 2, or it could possibly refer to the fire of persecution that the Church would experience, or it could refer to the fire of judgment which happens at the end of the age. But I don't know.


Matthew 3:7-12
King James Version

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.



To be baptized with the Holy Ghost is said by John to equate to being gathered into His garner, and this is contrasted with being baptized with fire.

Do you think, seeing that judgment and the wrath of God is in view, that maybe the baptism with fire might just mean Eternal Judgment?

Would this be consistent with all of Christ's teachings concerning judgment?

Christ spoke of another baptism:


Matthew 20:22
But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.



Not usually a lot of debate as to what is meant here. Why is it that there is so much debate concerning other baptisms?


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P1LGR1M

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Because Jesus Christ told His Church to go and make disciples, to preach the Gospel, to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. And Scripture is clear that through Word and Sacrament God works to save.

But it wasn't really all that important that they do that, right?

You have said yourself, water baptism just isn't necessary for God to save people.

So why bother?

Since Universal Salvation teaches that the lost do not need to bother with all these religious elements you say are important—why bother?

Unless you actually believe He really does work through these religious elements.

Like I said, pick a horse. Do men need to be water baptized for the remission of sins or not? If not, as is demanded of the lost concerning Universal Salvation, then why bother? It has no real significance. If men are baptized, okay, and if not, okay.

All will be hunky-dory in the end. So why bother?

And since when did the Lutheran Church begin teaching Universal Salvation?


God bless.
 
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P1LGR1M

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If God, unbeknownst to us, then goes and saves a tribe of people living on an island who are about to perish in a tsunami, what is that to you? He can do whatever He wants, He's God.

Explain that: do you mean He eternally redeems them just prior to the tsunami hitting?

Do you mean He picks them up off the island until the tsunami recedes?

How exactly does God give Life to those who are under condemnation, for which state Christ teaches only believing in Him will remedy?

Does this not create two Ways? Making Jesus Christ "...one of the ways, the Truth, and the Life?"


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P1LGR1M

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Nope. I still believe that God freely meets us sinners through His means of grace and that Jesus Christ died once and for all for the sins of the world; and that there is no other name by which anyone can be saved.

But do you believe He died once for all the sins of the world and the Atonement will be applied to all men of all time?

Or will there be those who will die and await the judgment of the Great White Throne and, when their names are not found in the Book of Life, will be cast into the Lake of Fire where they will for the rest of Eternity be separated from God?

Have you embraced Universal Salvation as a legitimate Bible Doctrine? Or is it false teaching?


God bless.
 
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P1LGR1M

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P1LGR1M said:

And why are people baptized?


For the remission of sins, Acts of the Apostles 2:38

So what is the means of remission of sins for the lost in the Lake of Fire?

It's not the Blood of Christ. No one is going to argue with His teachings, and He said those who believed not will never see life. Those who blaspheme the Holy Ghost will never have forgiveness.

This denies the possibility of Universal Salvation. Even if one person is not forgiven Universal Salvation fails. The devils being forever condemned denies Universal Salvation.

But for the sake of discussion, exactly what is the means of forgiveness for the lost?


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P1LGR1M

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P1LGR1M said:

So they can profess Christ as Savior or because they already are?


Yes, the Church expects that those who are Christians to profess faith in Christ. After all the Apostle says that if we believe in our heart and confess with our mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and that God raised Him up then we are saved. That's why we need to be on the receiving end of God's grace, that we might have faith, to believe and confess those things.

So can we be saved and not have received remission of sins?

Are people saved before being baptized? Before being regenerated. which you teach happens when someone is water baptized?

Are those still lost and rejecting Christ "on the receiving end of grace?"


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P1LGR1M

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P1LGR1M said:

And if they are not baptized and thus regenerated, how exactly do they see or perceive the Kingdom of God?


If one professes to believe in Jesus but haven't yet received Baptism, then they should go get baptized. There's no excuse not to. But like I said, Word and Sacrament. I have no doubt that a professing Christian is a Christian and that their faith is real even if they haven't been baptized; but they still need to go get baptized.

Looks like a box that needs to be checked to me.

So there are professing Christians that haven't been baptized in water and have thus not received remission of sins and regeneration?

One can be a Christian and not have received remission of sins and regeneration?


God bless.
 
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