Is Universal Salvation In Conflict With The Nicene Creed?

[P1LGR1M]

But as for what we teach and preach, we can only say what has been revealed to us. And thus we say and confess and believe what has been declared. So the Church confesses one baptism for the forgiveness of sins, the very Baptism which Christ our Lord and God instituted in the Great Commission, that one baptism by which our sins are indeed truly forgiven, we are clothed with Jesus Christ, buried with Christ, raised to new life as new creatures in Jesus Christ, adopted as sons and daughters of the Father and called joint-heirs with Christ. That is most certainly true.

Well, that is just one of the things you say is certainly true.

You also agreed with this statement...

This statement in the Creed says that when we are baptized, our sins are forgiven.

This statement in the Creed does not say that baptism is the only means by which our sins may be forgiven.

"If baptized, then forgiven" is not the same statement as "If forgiven, then baptized."

That point of logic is really the only reason I got involved in this discussion to begin with.

What exactly is the means of forgiveness for those who reject Christ? Who die and go into Hades to await the Lake of Fire?


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Salvation is not a list of boxes that must be checked off.

It is for some:

So that by the preaching of the Gospel, through Baptism, through the Lord's Supper, through Confession and Absolution God is actively at work accomplishing the very things He says He would do.

Yes, through Baptism our sins are forgiven, that's what Baptism does, that's why Baptism was given

God works through Word and Sacrament. So the one who hears the Gospel and believes, their sins are forgiven. The one who is baptized, their sins are forgiven. Whenever we come to the Lord's Table and receive His broken body and shed blood in, with, and under the bread and wine--their sins are forgiven. When the pastor exercises the office of the Keys and says in the name and authority of Jesus Christ that our sins are forgiven, our sins are truly forgiven.

Or are you saying that remission of sins isn't actually necessary?

Should a Christian partake of Communion?

Is it okay if one decides they don't want to fellowship regularly with other Christians, and choose never to go into a House of the Lord to worship?

Do the things you list above have no real value?


Continued...

 

[ViaCrucis]

What exactly is the means of forgiveness for those who reject Christ? Who die and go into Hades to await the Lake of Fire?


Continued...

If there is any, and there's no way we could know if there even is, then God alone knows. God alone is Judge. So why would I speculate?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[P1LGR1M]

Salvation is not a list of boxes that must be checked off. That's just the same ol' false religion that always says we must earn our way to God. Salvation is the power and work of God by His redeeming and reconciling the world to Himself, through Jesus Christ; which is ours purely and entirely by His grace, which we receive through faith. And God is accomplishing this for us through His ordered means of grace: Word and Sacrament. Those aren't checkboxes, it's not a how-to guide on "how to get saved". It's God actively and graciously meeting us down here to save us. So that whenever the word is preached, we can say "Amen, our sins are forgiven", when we remember our baptism we can say, "Amen, our sins are forgiven", when Christ meets us in His Supper we can say, "Amen, our sins are forgiven", when the pastor says, "Your sins are forgiven" we can say "Amen, our sins are forgiven." For it is most certainly true. Because God Himself says so.

No, that's just one way.

God doesn't need to redeem and reconcile the world unto Himself through Jesus Christ, because He can simply save those He is not redeeming and reconciling to Himself through Christ another way: His absolute power.

And there is no ordered means of grace, His Word and Sacrament because even those who reject His Word and have nothing to do with the Sacraments will be saved regardless.

The Pastor forgiving men is the same thing as the forgiveness God gives through the Death of His Son.

I'm sorry, but this is what you are saying, and I cannot say "Amen!" to it.

If we stick with what we are given we cannot miss the simple fact there are those who will never receive forgiveness and will never see life. There are those the Second Death will have power over. There are those who will go into the Lake of Fire and we don't have to speculate about that.

It isn't a mystery.


God bless.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

You can quote the entire Bible and it doesn't change the fact nothing you are posting is relevant to either what you yourself are trying to teach or the OP.

Much of what you are teaching has no Biblical Basis.

You will never find Scripture to support that Jesus Christ needed to be born again, that He went into New Jerusalem to receive living water and receive food from the trees of life, that I claimed to meet Jesus Christ in Person, that the "11 disciples were baptized" in John 20 or that they began speaking in tongues at that time.

Nothing you are teaching comes even close to the Scriptures.


So once more I will ask: what is the One Baptism of Universal Salvation and how does it apply to the lost?


God bless.

Most often when 'a brother' is going down the wrong path you point out what the 'good path' looks like. Feel free to cover the material I posted and give us all the correct version.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

If that is the only attack you think you engaged in you should reread your posts.


God bless.

Feel free to elaborate on that meaningful experience.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Yes, ordinary Christian Baptism is the one Baptism of the Creed. I don't think there's any question on that. God works through His means of grace, which includes Baptism, to accomplish His saving work in our lives. But that doesn't mean God is constrained by His means.

So we can toss out the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, by which men are baptized into Christ?

Can't exist, there is only one baptism, right?

God is in all that are water baptized?

But then, God doesn't have to do it that way?

Again, how is this acknowledging one baptism for the remission of sins?


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Feel free to elaborate on that meaningful experience.

Well, I am truly sorry to hear that attacking others is a meaningful experience for you.

What is the One Baptism of Universal Salvation and how does it apply to the lost?


God bless.

 

[ViaCrucis]

It is for some:

Oh, I'm aware. I grew up in churches that treated salvation that way.

Or are you saying that remission of sins isn't actually necessary?

Without forgiveness we are dead and damned in our sin.

Should a Christian partake of Communion?

Yes, a thousand percent yes. Christ gives Himself to us, His own body and blood for the forgiveness of our sins, here in His Supper. We should take every opportunity we can to receive His Holy Supper.

Is it okay if one decides they don't want to fellowship regularly with other Christians, and choose never to go into a House of the Lord to worship?

No. It is at our gathering together that God works His Means of Word and Sacrament. If we cut ourselves off from the Body of Christ then we cut ourselves off from Christ Himself.

Do the things you list above have no real value?

Continued...

I don't even know how you can ask that as though it were a genuine Christian. Not only do they have real value, they are central to what it means to be a Christian. Apart from Christ we are lost.

I know, speaking personally, when there have been times where I've had prolonged absence I can literally feel the absence. My soul is parched, I hunger and thirst for God's word, I yearn for the Lord's Supper. I hungrily yearn for His mercy and forgiveness. Apart from these things my flesh is bolstered, the old man seeks to dominate; for I am weak and without strength of myself. It is only in Christ, Christ and only in Christ, that I have life of any kind.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[P1LGR1M]

No, it is. Because there is only one baptism in which there is remission of sins, and that's Christian baptism. An ordinary bath or a swim in a lake doesn't wash away our sins, only the blood of Jesus Christ washes away our sins and the only baptism in which Christ's blood washes away our sins is Christian baptism. Since it is that baptism by which we die, are buried, and are raised to new life in Jesus Christ (Romans 6:3-4).

So the baptism with the Holy Ghost has nothing to do with the remission of sins?

Unbelievers have to wait until they are water baptized to be forgiven?

We die when we are water baptized?

We are buried when we are water baptized?

We are regenerated when we are water baptized?

And the Baptism with the Holy Ghost? What happens in that baptism?


Continued...

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Job is expecting resurrection after physical death.
Resurrection is not Regeneration.
God bless.

Thinking you have no sins to repent after your 'born again' event is not supported by the Bible. The gift of languages was only a few days after the baptism that allowed those 11 people to hear Jesus after the 40 days ended. You have that as the departure yet He ascended to the Re:4 Temple rather than to New Jerusalem where God gave His spiritual body what it needed to qualify as being 'glorified'.

Joh:7:39:
(But this spake he of the Spirit,
which they that believe on him should receive:
for the Holy Ghost was not yet given;
because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Joh:4:1-2:
When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
(Though Jesus himself baptized not,
but his disciples,)

 

[P1LGR1M]

Baptism is necessary, it's just not absolutely necessary. I've noticed that Sacramentarians tend to be incredibly legalistic about salvation, thinking that salvation requires specific acts on the part of people rather than it being truly a matter of God's own grace and thus freely found in God's means of grace: Word and Sacrament.

What does that even mean? "It is necessary, it's just not absolutely necessary."

If something is not absolutely necessary, it isn't necessary, end of story.

As far as charging Sacramentarians as legalistic because of required specific acts, do you see that you are trying to speak out of both sides of your monitor?

It is necessary but, no, not really.

Men receive remission of sins by being water baptized, but, no, even that isn't necessary.

Men are regenerated when water baptized, but, no, even that isn't necessary.

Could you just pick one horse, please?


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Thinking you have no sins to repent after your 'born again' event is not supported by the Bible. The gift of languages was only a few days after the baptism that allowed those 11 people to hear Jesus after the 40 days ended. You have that as the departure yet He ascended to the Re:4 Temple rather than to New Jerusalem where God gave His spiritual body what it needed to qualify as being 'glorified'.

Joh:7:39:
(But this spake he of the Spirit,
which they that believe on him should receive:
for the Holy Ghost was not yet given;
because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Joh:4:1-2:
When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
(Though Jesus himself baptized not,
but his disciples,)

Nowhere have I said repentance is unnecessary after salvation.

I have never once, in the many years I have been going to forums, ever reported someone.

I will say this again, answer my question and stop posting irrelevant statements to things I have never said or I will report you.

Here is the question again: what is the One Baptism of Universal Salvation and how is it relevant to the lost?

One more post that doesn't answer this question and I will be forced to report. I don't want to do it, but it seems you will leave me no choice.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Salvation isn't about following a program, or saying the right prayers, or performing the right actions--that would be works, which have no saving power (Ephesians 2:9). Salvation, instead, is by God's grace alone, through faith (Ephesians 2:8). This was the belief championed in the Reformation: We are justified by grace alone, through faith alone, on Christ's account alone. We don't contribute anything to the already and perfectly finished work of Jesus Christ; we are instead only passive recipients of that once and perfect work.

I agree, but I am not assure how you can believe the above if you feel men are regenerated when they are water baptized.

IF a man does not have the Spirit of God he does not belong to God, hence he is not saved, right?

And so we see one box you are leaving unchecked: except a man be water baptized and born again he cannot see or enter the Kingdom of Heaven, right?

You can leave that box unchecked?


Continued...

 

[ViaCrucis]

So we can toss out the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, by which men are baptized into Christ?

Baptism with the Holy Spirit isn't how people are baptized into Christ. The Baptism with the Holy Spirit is what happened when the Holy Spirit was poured out on Pentecost. Twice the Holy Spirit fell, the first time was on Pentecost, and the second time was on the household of Cornelius. This is can be seen easily by simply reading the Scriptures that talk about these things. In the first chapter of the Acts of the Apostles Jesus tells His disciples to wait in Jerusalem until they receive power from on high, when they receive the gift from the Father, in fulfillment of what John the Baptist said, "I baptize you with water, but the One who comes after me will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire". Then in the 10th chapter of the Acts Peter received a vision, and went to preach to Cornelius and his household--Gentiles--when Peter did this, something amazing happened--the Holy Spirit came upon them just as He had done with the 120 in Jerusalem in the beginning, and so Peter immediately ordered Cornelius and his entire household to be baptized and received into the Church. When Peter went back down to Jerusalem the Jerusalem leadership questioned him about why he had Gentiles baptized, so Peter recounted what happened--and that he remembered the words spoken before, concerning baptism with the Holy Spirit. Peter's report can be read in the 11th chapter of the Acts.

You can go and read these things for yourself.

Can't exist, there is only one baptism, right?

The baptism with the Holy Spirit which happened as recorded in the Acts of the Apostles really did happen. It already happened. Just as Scripture says.

God is in all that are water baptized?

As long as they don't turn away from Christ and disown God's promises. If someone becomes a Christian and then walks away and rejects Christ we call that apostasy. And sadly, apostasy happens. I personally know a number of people who, though raised up in the faith later on turned away and no longer believe. Which is why we reach out to them and call them back to Christ.

But then, God doesn't have to do it that way?

I don't presume to say what God does or doesn't have to do. He's God.

Again, how is this acknowledging one baptism for the remission of sins?


Continued...

Because it's the only baptism in which our sins are remitted.

"There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." - Ephesians 4:4-6

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Wayne Gabler]

So the baptism with the Holy Ghost has nothing to do with the remission of sins?

Unbelievers have to wait until they are water baptized to be forgiven?

We die when we are water baptized?

We are buried when we are water baptized?

We are regenerated when we are water baptized?

And the Baptism with the Holy Ghost? What happens in that baptism?


Continued...

You can hear the voice of God like Jesus did in the 40 days in the wilderness, and like Peter heard the voice of Jesus in Acts:10 and many other places for those 11 and Paul after his conversion event.
Was that the regeneration you were talking about. We were left what 'inspired writers' wrote, we do not always understand what they wrote so we are not at the same level.

Non-believers who are feeding the poor will fare better than a believer who walks past them.
Lu:12:47-48:
And that servant,
which knew his lord's will,
and prepared not himself,
neither did according to his will,
shall be beaten with many stripes.
But he that knew not,
and did commit things worthy of stripes,
shall be beaten with few stripes.
For unto whomsoever much is given,
of him shall be much required:
and to whom men have committed much,
of him they will ask the more.

M't:12:31:
Wherefore I say unto you,
All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men:
but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

 

[P1LGR1M]

I acknowledge only one baptism (Christian Baptism) in which sins are forgiven. But forgiveness of sin isn't found only in baptism, that certainly isn't what the authors of the Creed believed. Because in the Church we are surrounded by God's forgiveness. In Word and Sacrament, all the time. God is constantly telling us we are forgiven on Christ's account. In the waters of Holy Baptism, in the preaching of the Gospel every Sunday, in the words of Scripture that we hear and read, in the Lord's Supper, in Confession and Absolution.

So you do not acknowledge the Baptism with the Holy Ghost?

You do not acknowledge the Baptism with Fire?

As far as the holy baptism you refer to, and the preaching of the Gospel, what do they matter if God can save men outside of those elements?

Are you now saying there are some boxes that need to be checked?


Continued...

 

[Wayne Gabler]

So we can toss out the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, by which men are baptized into Christ?

Can't exist, there is only one baptism, right?

God is in all that are water baptized?

But then, God doesn't have to do it that way?

Again, how is this acknowledging one baptism for the remission of sins?


Continued...

So you stuck your finger into Christ side have you?
I already pointed out that repenting your daily sins is something a Christian does in private prayer to God. (if he cannot iron things out with the person so lets use sinful thought are the ones you are to repent. Like thinking you are saved and somebody you meet is not saved)

God is in everybody, believer or sinner:
Ge:2:7:
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
and man became a living soul.
Ec:3:20:
All go unto one place;
all are of the dust,
and all turn to dust again.
Ec:12:7:
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Ec:9:10:
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do,
do it with thy might;
for there is no work,
nor device,
nor knowledge,
nor wisdom,
in the grave,
whither thou goest.

All other flesh as well:
1Co:15:39:
All flesh is not the same flesh:
but there is one kind of flesh of men,
another flesh of beasts,
another of fishes,
and another of birds.
Lu:12:67:
Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings,
and not one of them is forgotten before God?
But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Fear not therefore:
ye are of more value than many sparrows.

 

[ViaCrucis]

What does that even mean? "It is necessary, it's just not absolutely necessary."

If something is not absolutely necessary, it isn't necessary, end of story.

I think this is easily demonstrated false by the fact that even in our own day-to-day experiences we find that there are occasionally exceptions to the rule. Most people need to work to get paid, but some people get paid for nothing, such as when someone wins the lottery. That doesn't mean it stops being necessary to go do our 9 to 5 in order to get a paycheck, to pay the bills. The person winning a millions dollars is an exception, not the rule. And I'm sure if you stop and think for long enough you'll probably come up with all kinds of examples where things are ordinarily necessary but that occasionally exceptions happen; thus not being absolutely necessary.

As far as charging Sacramentarians as legalistic because of required specific acts, do you see that you are trying to speak out of both sides of your monitor?

I'm sure it seems that way from where you sit. But I'm not. I'm simply affirming the revealed truth of God's revelation which we have in Christ and saying that God Himself is free to do whatever He wants, because He's God.

I doubt we are really all that different in that regard.

Do you believe it is necessary to have faith in Jesus Christ to be saved? I do.
Do you believe that everyone who never heard the Gospel is therefore damned? I don't.

Perhaps you see that as me speaking out of both sides of my mouth. I don't.

It is necessary but, no, not really.

Men receive remission of sins by being water baptized, but, no, even that isn't necessary.

Men are regenerated when water baptized, but, no, even that isn't necessary.

Could you just pick one horse, please?


Continued...

See my above questions.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[P1LGR1M]

To acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins is about acknowledging the one baptism, not that this one baptism is the only way in which God forgives us. That's simply not grammatically sensible, and it's not what the Creed says.

There is only one means of remission of sins, and the New Testament is consistent on that.

Consider:


Colossians 1:14
King James Version

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:


Are you willing to say that one does not have to believe in Christ in order to receive remission of sins?

Secondly, do you distinguish between this remission and all others?


Continued...