Is Unguided Evolution Scientific? (2)

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DerelictJunction

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The thread split. So, in order to make it easier for Zosimus to respond, I am repeating my post here.

Zosimus said:
Can you read?
Then, you consider neither one to be evidence since evidence cannot be used to support a hypothesis (John killed his wife), only falsify that hypothesis.
If eyewitness testimony is not evidence, then what is it?

Maybe it is evidence and is being used to falsify a different hypothesis (John didn't kill his wife)? Similarly, the video footage, fingerprints, blood trail and clothing can be used to falsify that same hypothesis.

Extrapolating upon this, I conclude that the ERV evidence presented by Loudmouth falsifies the following two hypotheses:
1. Literal Genesis creationism.
2. Life did not evolve from a common ancestor.
 
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Zosimus

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The thread split. So, in order to make it easier for Zosimus to respond, I am repeating my post here.


Then, you consider neither one to be evidence since evidence cannot be used to support a hypothesis (John killed his wife), only falsify that hypothesis.
If eyewitness testimony is not evidence, then what is it?

Maybe it is evidence and is being used to falsify a different hypothesis (John didn't kill his wife)? Similarly, the video footage, fingerprints, blood trail and clothing can be used to falsify that same hypothesis.

Extrapolating upon this, I conclude that the ERV evidence presented by Loudmouth falsifies the following two hypotheses:
1. Literal Genesis creationism.
2. Life did not evolve from a common ancestor.
So you think the ERV evidence presented by Loudmouth proves Literal Genesis creationism? How does that match up with your claim that ERVs are not really evidence? I think eyewitness testimony can be evidence, and I don't know why you claim it can't. That doesn't make any sense at all. Plus you haven't explained why you think John killed his wife. Have you established any kind of a motive for him? If not, then how can you claim so boldly that John definitely killed his wife. I swear, I don't understand Christians such as you at all!

It's been repeatedly observed in the laboratory that the frequency of alleles can change from generation to generation. That's the definition of evolution, and if you evolution deniers would realize that, there would be a lot fewer arguments on this forum, that's for sure.

Evolution occurs. Get over it.
 
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DerelictJunction

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So you think the ERV evidence presented by Loudmouth proves Literal Genesis creationism? How does that match up with your claim that ERVs are not really evidence? I think eyewitness testimony can be evidence, and I don't know why you claim it can't. That doesn't make any sense at all. Plus you haven't explained why you think John killed his wife. Have you established any kind of a motive for him? If not, then how can you claim so boldly that John definitely killed his wife. I swear, I don't understand Christians such as you at all!
Can you read?

I'm an atheist.

I didn't know if you categorized eyewitness testimony as evidence or not.

If it is not, then what is it?

If it is, then it could not be evidence for the claim that John killed his wife, because you said that evidence cannot be used to support a claim or hypothesis.

However, it can be used to falsify the claim that John did not kill his wife.

In the same way, Loudmouth's ERV evidence can be used to falsify the claim that life on Earth was created according to a literal reading of the Genesis account.

Also, the ERV evidence can be used to falsify the claim that life on Earth did not develop from a common ancestor in the way suggested by the theory of evolution.

I hope that helps with your understanding.

It's been repeatedly observed in the laboratory that the frequency of alleles can change from generation to generation. That's the definition of evolution, and if you evolution deniers would realize that, there would be a lot fewer arguments on this forum, that's for sure.

Evolution occurs. Get over it.
How can the evidence from the laboratory be used to show that evolution occurs if evidence cannot be used to support a claim or theory?

You are confusing me.
 
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Zosimus

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Can you read?

I'm an atheist.

I didn't know if you categorized eyewitness testimony as evidence or not.

If it is not, then what is it?

If it is, then it could not be evidence for the claim that John killed his wife, because you said that evidence cannot be used to support a claim or hypothesis.

However, it can be used to falsify the claim that John did not kill his wife.

In the same way, Loudmouth's ERV evidence can be used to falsify the claim that life on Earth was created according to a literal reading of the Genesis account.

Also, the ERV evidence can be used to falsify the claim that life on Earth did not develop from a common ancestor in the way suggested by the theory of evolution.

I hope that helps with your understanding.

How can the evidence from the laboratory be used to show that evolution occurs if evidence cannot be used to support a claim or theory?

You are confusing me.
Oh so now the story changes? I won't be caught out so easily. I looked at your profile and it does not say atheist. It says agnostic. That's the first lie we've caught you in.

Second, you've started claiming that you don't believe ERV evidence supports the Literal Genesis account, but rather that it falsifies the claim that the Literal Genesis account did NOT occur? You are confusing me.

Now apparently you think that evidence from a laboratory cannot be used to support a claim or a theory. Will you make up your mind? Does the evidence falsify the claim that the Literal Genesis account did not occur, or doesn't it?

Finally, I don't agree that the ERV evidence firmly falsifies the claim that a common ancestor existed. You can insist all you want, but I firmly believe that the ERV evidence is neutral to the theory in question. I don't see how you can claim that it falsifies it at all.
 
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DerelictJunction

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Oh so now the story changes? I won't be caught out so easily. I looked at your profile and it does not say atheist. It says agnostic. That's the first lie we've caught you in.
Or perhaps I graduated to atheism but didn't get around to changing the icon.

Second, you've started claiming that you don't believe ERV evidence supports the Literal Genesis account, but rather that it falsifies the claim that the Literal Genesis account did NOT occur? You are confusing me.
I realize that English is likely your second language but how can what I wrote,
DerelictJunction said:
Loudmouth's ERV evidence can be used to falsify the claim that life on Earth was created according to a literal reading of the Genesis account.
, possibly in any way mean it falsifies the claim that the Literal Genesis account did NOT occur?

Now apparently you think that evidence from a laboratory cannot be used to support a claim or a theory. Will you make up your mind? Does the evidence falsify the claim that the Literal Genesis account did not occur, or doesn't it?
No...no...no You are the one who claims that evidence from a laboratory cannot be used to support a claim or theory. You said it can only be used to falsify a claim or theory. I was just trying to get an understanding of how you would use evidence in science.

Finally, I don't agree that the ERV evidence firmly falsifies the claim that a common ancestor existed. You can insist all you want, but I firmly believe that the ERV evidence is neutral to the theory in question. I don't see how you can claim that it falsifies it at all.
Again...Can You Read!!??
I said:
DerelictJunction said:
Also, the ERV evidence can be used to falsify the claim that life on Earth did not develop from a common ancestor in the way suggested by the theory of evolution.
How can that be understood as me claiming that .."ERV evidence firmly falsifies the claim that a common ancestor existed"?
The two sentences are direct opposites of each other.

BTW: Do you believe that eyewitness testimony and visions from angels are evidence or not?
 
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DerelictJunction

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If you think this is going to make your problem go away, you're wrong.
Sure it is, because I'm not the one who is purposely misrepresenting what others have said.

At this point there is too much of your pigeon crap on the chessboard for the game to continue.
So, I will not respond to you on this subject until you clean things up by retracting your misrepresentations of my posts.
 
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justlookinla

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Sure it is, because I'm not the one who is purposely misrepresenting what others have said.

At this point there is too much of your pigeon crap on the chessboard for the game to continue.
So, I will not respond to you on this subject until you clean things up by retracting your misrepresentations of my posts.

As I said, this certainly doesn't make the issues with your views go away. I'm sure they'll be seen again.
 
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Zosimus

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Or perhaps I graduated to atheism but didn't get around to changing the icon.

I realize that English is likely your second language but how can what I wrote, , possibly in any way mean it falsifies the claim that the Literal Genesis account did NOT occur?

No...no...no You are the one who claims that evidence from a laboratory cannot be used to support a claim or theory. You said it can only be used to falsify a claim or theory. I was just trying to get an understanding of how you would use evidence in science.

Again...Can You Read!!??
I said:

How can that be understood as me claiming that .."ERV evidence firmly falsifies the claim that a common ancestor existed"?
The two sentences are direct opposites of each other.

BTW: Do you believe that eyewitness testimony and visions from angels are evidence or not?
Wasn't that annoying? Isn't it infuriating when you talk to someone and he or she misrepresents your position on every point?

Of course it is... so now you know what it's like to talk to yourself.

Pay attention to what people say, and your posts will make more sense and be less annoying.

You have asked again whether eyewitness testimony is evidence.

I will say it for the last time, so open your ears. Pour a little hydrogen peroxide in there and let it wash away all that wax buildup over the years.

Yes, eyewitness testimony is reliable testimony. It is far better than forensic evidence. Eyewitness testimony is often (though not always) direct evidence whereas forensic evidence is invariably circumstantial evidence.

Circumstantial evidence always relies on an inference to be relevant. That evidence is only as valid as the inference that ties it to the situation. Since the truth value of the inference is unknown, circumstantial evidence can only properly be used to exonerate someone.

Let's take an example of circumstantial eyewitness testimony. A woman was murdered last week. When neighbors were questioned, one of the neighbors say that she saw John leaving the house at 2:00 p.m.

Did the neighbor see John kill the woman? No, but she thinks (and might be wrong) that she saw John leave the house at the inferred time of the murder.

Does that prove that John killed the woman? No. If not one neighbor but 10,000 of them saw John leave the house, would that prove that John killed the woman? No. What if John's DNA were also found in the house. Would that prove John killed the woman? No. What if fingerprints were found on the toilet handle in the house where the woman died and experts said those partially-smeared prints nevertheless matched John's at 9 points of coincidence. Would that prove that John killed the woman? No.

So what's the procedure for demonstrating beyond a reasonable doubt that John was the murderer? First, we must assemble a list of suspects. Who had the motive to kill the woman? Perhaps the neighbor whose cat was killed by the woman's dog, the son, who stands to gain a lot of money from the life insurance, and etc. Let's imagine that we assemble a list of four people and John is on that list (for whatever motive).

Then you need to eliminate people on that list. Who had an alibi? If the woman's son was out of the country at the time of the murder, that seems pretty solid to me. He can be eliminated.

Everyone must be eliminated except for John. Then we can say, with reasonable certainty, that John must have been the killer. If, however, we can say that John had no known motive, whereas the woman's son said that he was alone walking in the park (but no one saw him there) then reasonable doubt will enter our minds and all the forensic evidence in the world should not convince us that poor John was the killer.

Get it?
 
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Loudmouth

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Yes, eyewitness testimony is reliable testimony. It is far better than forensic evidence.

Then explain why prisoners on death row are being released because of forensic evidence that directly contradicts eyewitness testimony.

"Eyewitness misidentification is the greatest contributing factor to wrongful convictions, playing a role in about 75% of convictions overturned through DNA testing nationwide."
Eyewitness Misidentification ? The Innocence Project
 
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Loudmouth

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One story of a man wrongfully convicted based on eyewitness testimony:

On July 19, 1982, Marvin Anderson was at work when he was asked by his supervisor to come speak to police. The officers questioned Marvin about a rape that had occurred over the previous weekend. Marvin told the police what he knew about the crime – details he had heard because he lived in the neighborhood where it had occurred. The police asked Marvin to come down to the station to answer more questions and he agreed. Since he was innocent, he had no reason not to.

What Marvin didn’t know was that the man who had committed the rape had told the victim that he “had a white girl,” and because Marvin was the only black man that the investigating officer knew who lived with a white woman, he had automatically become a suspect. Even before questioning Marvin, the officer had gone to his employer and obtained a color employment identification photo of him. The victim was shown the color photo of Marvin along with a half dozen black and white mug shots and was asked to pick her assailant. She chose the color photo of Marvin. Less than an hour later, the police assembled a lineup where Marvin was the only person included whose picture was also included in the original photo array shown to the victim. She identified him in the lineup as well.

Despite having an alibi, Marvin was convicted of rape, abduction, sodomy and robbery, largely on the basis of this eyewitness misidentification, and was sentenced to 210 years. He served 15 years in prison before DNA testing proved his innocence and won his freedom.


- See more at: Eyewitness Misidentification ? The Innocence Project

He was later freed based on DNA forensic evidence.
 
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DerelictJunction

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Wasn't that annoying? Isn't it infuriating when you talk to someone and he or she misrepresents your position on every point?

Of course it is... so now you know what it's like to talk to yourself.

Pay attention to what people say, and your posts will make more sense and be less annoying.

You have asked again whether eyewitness testimony is evidence.

I will say it for the last time, so open your ears. Pour a little hydrogen peroxide in there and let it wash away all that wax buildup over the years.

Yes, eyewitness testimony is reliable testimony. It is far better than forensic evidence. Eyewitness testimony is often (though not always) direct evidence whereas forensic evidence is invariably circumstantial evidence.

Circumstantial evidence always relies on an inference to be relevant. That evidence is only as valid as the inference that ties it to the situation. Since the truth value of the inference is unknown, circumstantial evidence can only properly be used to exonerate someone.

Let's take an example of circumstantial eyewitness testimony. A woman was murdered last week. When neighbors were questioned, one of the neighbors say that she saw John leaving the house at 2:00 p.m.

Did the neighbor see John kill the woman? No, but she thinks (and might be wrong) that she saw John leave the house at the inferred time of the murder.

Does that prove that John killed the woman? No. If not one neighbor but 10,000 of them saw John leave the house, would that prove that John killed the woman? No. What if John's DNA were also found in the house. Would that prove John killed the woman? No. What if fingerprints were found on the toilet handle in the house where the woman died and experts said those partially-smeared prints nevertheless matched John's at 9 points of coincidence. Would that prove that John killed the woman? No.

So what's the procedure for demonstrating beyond a reasonable doubt that John was the murderer? First, we must assemble a list of suspects. Who had the motive to kill the woman? Perhaps the neighbor whose cat was killed by the woman's dog, the son, who stands to gain a lot of money from the life insurance, and etc. Let's imagine that we assemble a list of four people and John is on that list (for whatever motive).

Then you need to eliminate people on that list. Who had an alibi? If the woman's son was out of the country at the time of the murder, that seems pretty solid to me. He can be eliminated.

Everyone must be eliminated except for John. Then we can say, with reasonable certainty, that John must have been the killer. If, however, we can say that John had no known motive, whereas the woman's son said that he was alone walking in the park (but no one saw him there) then reasonable doubt will enter our minds and all the forensic evidence in the world should not convince us that poor John was the killer.

Get it?
Then you believe that evidence can support a claim/hypothesis/theory?
 
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bhsmte

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Zos acts as if eyewitness testimony trumps all else in court when the opposite is actually true. Wonder if Zos will ever face up to that.

Well, Zos is all over the place really, contradicting himself at every turn. The motivation behind that is pretty easy to discern.
 
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