Is touching yourself a sin? (2)

[holo]

"That's my point - they will raise new buildings and walk right past the hobos and the beggars."

And you say others are judgmental!

Yes I do. These are my direct observations. I've been guilty of it myself, too.

You have everything against rules, you have said repeatedly you don't need them and they have no place in your life.

Rules are good if you need them. You still haven't given me an example of what I'm supposed to need the law for. You say YOU need it, and the only way someone could need it, is if they simply don't KNOW that, say, stealing would actually be wrong to do.

So I'm still really at a loss as to what exactly I need the law for. The scripture doesn't say what a righteous man is supposed to need it for, either.

Perfect example of a person living for themselves. You're saying "I don't need God's rules until I say I do and until I see a need for them."

But you do? You figure you need the law even if you don't know why?

"True, I do what I please. And what do I please? To do good. To worship the Lord. To share the good news."

Which Jesus commanded you to do. So you do follow the rules of God after all, well at least one.

No, I don't. When I'm good to people, that's Christ expressing Himself through me. It's not me following a commandment. I love because He loved me first.

Jesus is God. Yeah I believe God didn't let Jesus, even though He had the power, take Himself off that cross.

He could, if He had decided to. But His love for us kept Him there.

You contradict yourself here. You say Jesus is your life, then you say I don't live for anyone. If Jesus is your life you live for Him.

Jesus is my life, and Jesus doesn't live for Himself. In a way, I do live for Him, of course, but not in the sense that a disciple lives for his guru or someone lives for music. He IS my life.

You have already said you do what He has commanded you to do

No, actually, it's just Jesus being Himself.

He saw that they were good after He made them, not after they ate of the fruit. Then He saw them as wicked and sent them out of paradise, because the very sight of them repulsed Him.

Exactly. And now that the second Adam has come, and restored the kingdom so that we are in Eden spiritually (remember we were in the old Adam, but that Adam DIED), God once again looks at His creation and says "it is GOOD!"

GOD created you. The being that you are now, is born of God. He sees that you are good. You couldn't be anything but good, because God wouldn't created you as a wicked person. However, the devil may fool you into thinking that you ARE, and if you believe him, you'll act like the person you think you are.

So that they know what God finds acceptable and unacceptable.

They didn't know? Did they really lack the law?

Does God find walking around naked acceptable?

If you repeatedly break the law, is God going to think you're living for Jesus or Him or that you love or respect Him in any way? Of course not! Nobody would.

Maybe not, but you're not called to "live for Jesus" - you're called to be His child, and to relate to Him as a child relates to his father.

Wrong. To not eat of the tree is what God told them to do.

Exactly. And yet, christians all over the world keep eating from that tree.

It was the fruit that did that. Satan just twisted the words of God to get them to disobey God.

The commandment came, sin sprang to life. Sin took advantage of the commandment and produced in them every covetous desire.

Without the commandment, sin is DEAD. You are actually feeding sin, because the commandment is GOOD, and therefore you don't see that it actually brings DEATH.

I'm not using a creed or a statement of faith to measure the faith of another.

No, but you're measuring it against your own faith. If it doesn't line up, you reject it.

Have I told you to go hang yourself?

No Zecryphon, you haven't. Glad we could clear that up.

My point, as I'm sure you know, is that just because something is extracted from the bible doesn't make it good. A prime example would be when the devil tempted Christ in the desert.

And where does one go to learn about God?

To God Himself.

Nope, you raise them up and teach them lessons and correct them when they displease you and live for themselves instead of upholding the standards you have set for acceptable behavior. You don't just let them run free doing what they please.

But what must your children do in order for you to see them as your children? How must they perform for you to treat them as your kids?

I'm sure if we think about it, we could conceive of some limit to our own grace - if our kids went beyond that, we would have a hard time loving and forgiving them. But God's grace surpasses all understanding and none of us know the depths of His love. So God's children are much safer than yours.

"God Himself did."

How did God compare a flawed human relationship with your earthly father to your relationship with Him?

All human relationships are flawed. God is often likened to a Father in the bible, and Jesus calls Him Father, and the Spirit makes us cry "Abba!" which means daddy. In one prophecy God even compares Himself to a hen!

You sir, have made it clear that you live for yourself and no one else.

So apparently when I say that I help poor people out and want to share the gospel, that's not as telling as "I don't live according to the law" - because the latter statement, in your understanding, is translated as "I don't respect or appreciate God."

I haven't made that clear at all. But what has been made clear, is how you interpret and judge me.

Keeping God's commands are one way we show God that we love Him and respect Him.

Yes. That's why a lot of christians will keep sabbath on saturday and refrain from shellfish and whatnot. They do it to honour God, and more power to them.

For me, it would be sin, though. Because it would go AGAINST my conviction not to be able to eat all sorts of food, or that I must set aside this or that day. It wouldn't be of faith.

You love, that's true, but only yourself

Yes, that's abundantly clear. Did I mention my raging hate for my neighbours and particularly the junkies and hobos around?

You have no use for the law.

Needing the law is a sign that you are wicked and ungodly. That's what the bible says.

You laugh at the law and at God by doing so.

Actually, I don't. I've never laughed at the law. People's weird interpretations of the bible sometimes makes me chuckle, though. And the entire idea that by disagreeing with your interpretation equals disagreeing with God Himself is quite frankly laughable. It's also a tremendously scary attitude, because it's the most important component of such insanities as militant islamism. But I have to laugh at stuff like that or I'd cry myself to death.

Okay and once you've met Christ, what do you do?

Stay with Him.

 

[holo]

I am now wondering if the behaviour does some brain damage. You people can't even spell it.

That's the most rotten thing from you yet. And YOU just accused HIM for being carnal.

 

[Shiversblood]

That's the most rotten thing from you yet. And YOU just accused HIM for being carnal.

Exactly

 

[Floatingaxe]

Lol! I was wondering when someone was going to point that out.

 

[Trying2BaFaithfulServant]

This is called 'eisogesis'; using your own presuppositions to interpret the Bible. This is a dangerous thing to do, as you can come up with all sorts of faulty doctrines and heresies this way.

Whenever you are trying to understand the meaning of a passage, you have to appeal to the original text.

'Abusers of themselves' DOES NOT refer to touching yourself. This term comes from the Greek word, 'arsenokoites'. This is 'male' + 'bed', and it is referring to things like homosexual sex, sodomy, etc.

Please, next time you try to interprete the Bible with your own ideas, look at the original meanings first and see what the Bible is actually saying.

A good idea is to use more Bible translations that just the King James Version. If there is a wording difference between versions, you'll be able to get a better idea of the original meaning.

Actually a more accurate translation of the word "arsenokoites" is a heterosexual man who sleeps with prostitutes. The Greek work "arsenokoites" is a compound word. "Arsen" meaning man (as in adult male) and "koites" meaning bed ("koites" comes from the Latin word "coitus" which should properly convey the subtext of the word). "Arsenokoites" literally means "manbedder."

The first component ("arsen") has a variant form. When a man is the recipient of the action, the compound is usually formed with "arren." Compound words formed with "arsen" indicate the man is doing the action. The word "koites" is the feminine form of the word. Therefore it is a reasonable conclusion that "arsenokoites" actually means a heterosexual man who has multiple/frequent sexual encounters.

 

[TexasBluebonnet]

Lol

 

[Dyin2live]

Well, you need to.

Sigh. Did you even read my post?

 

[Dyin2live]

You are rationalizing and lying to yourself. That is carnal thinking which God tells us we must not do.

no im not!

 

[Dyin2live]

"Honestly, I don't have to try hard at all. I really don't even come close to lusting at all. I don't have any bad images in my mind or anything. Ill try to quit doing it, but the burning sexual desire becomes to great."

As someone who was once a 15 year old boy with a chronic masturbation habit, I know that feeling all too well. You are being sanctified by the Holy Spirit and growing in holiness. Need proof? Look at where you were a year ago, compared to where you are today. I believe that one day you will kick this habit.

"So I see masturbation as a way out, and I honestly have not even a sinful thought. Maybe God provided me this way out? Im not sure."

Okay, what you should do then is take this to God in prayer daily, especially when you're tempted to touch. Cry out to Him and He will help you. He can squash the feelings that you can not. Trust me, I've been there too.

"Masturbation can also keep you away from committing fornication or adultery."

It satisfies the urge for sex, but only for a few hours. Most people touch because they can't fornicate and have all this pent up sexual energy. That still isn't a justification for it that God will accept. But that's just my opinion.

"After it is done it takes your sexual desire away for quite a while and therefore you won't be tempted to commit any of those sins."

Yes, but look at the results, they're not permanent when you touch. Only God can give you release from this, permanent release. I will be praying that God continues to grow you in holiness.

You know what, I was wrong about you. I see that you are here to help and that you have well thought out posts. But floating axe only seems to mock me and other people. She is the reason non-believers look down upon Christians and see them as judgmental hypocrites that don't practice what they preach. But I see that you are not one of those. Thanks for your prayer and kindness.

 

[Dyin2live]

That's the most rotten thing from you yet. And YOU just accused HIM for being carnal.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I am in total agreement with Zecryphon. If I knew you needed some hand-holding, I would've offered.

 

[Zecryphon]

You know what, I was wrong about you. I see that you are here to help and that you have well thought out posts. But floating axe only seems to mock me and other people. She is the reason non-believers look down upon Christians and see them as judgmental hypocrites that don't practice what they preach. But I see that you are not one of those. Thanks for your prayer and kindness.

"You know what, I was wrong about you."

I was wrong about you too. I see that you are actually conflicted over this issue and are struglling with it. It's very easy to get off on the wrong foot here, especially in an emotionally-charged thread such as this one.

"I see that you are here to help and that you have well thought out posts. But floating axe only seems to mock me and other people."

I know it seems that way, but she is frustrated. I share her frustration. She is an on-fire believer for God. She will defend Him to her dying breath and what He has revealed to her as well. What we're seeing with most people involved in this thread, the ones that are pro-masturbation is that they're not conflicted over the issue, they're not sorry they do it. Their argument seems to be since the Bible doesn't outright condemn it, it's okay. Jesus never said it was bad, therefore it's okay. It's a weak argument at best.

God gave us the power to discern between actions. He gave us an intelligent mind that can draw parallels between sinful actions. A mind that can be used to deduce conclusions about sinful behaviors. For instance, I think we agree that sex outside of marriage is adultery. Even non-Christians believe that. That's the standard definition. Since you are not married to yourself, when you have sex with yourself, that is adultery. If the act of sex outside of marriage is adultery, and you are not married to yourself, this is a logical conclusion to draw. If you go back through the thread you will see the kind of respect that conclusion drew from a member of the pro-masturbation crowd. Mockery and sarcasm.

Healthy conversations, loving conversations will never take place when zingers replace thoughtful discussion and contemplation of other ideas. The problem I have is that I don't see anything in scripture that says masturbation is okay or even suggests it. Can you imagine how big of a book the Bible would have to be if it were nothing but a bunch of rules? Wanna read a book that is a bunch of rules from God? Try Leviticus, tell me how fun it is to read that one. Now imagine all the rules God would have to hand down to cover every possible sin and sinful sitauation. You'd have volumes upon volumes all reading like Leviticus. Nobody would bother.

"She is the reason non-believers look down upon Christians and see them as judgmental hypocrites that don't practice what they preach."

Well that accusation would be accurate if she were masturbating in her private life. I have no intention of probing her on this issue and asking her. She says she doesn't and as a fellow Chrisitan I take her at her word until I have reason not to do so. Christians are hypocrites for the most part though, you're right about that. They preach against behaviors they themselves engage in. Look at how many people always say "that's not a loving attitude," then engage in the same attitude in another thread. They apply their faith to the world, not to themselves, because, they're already saved they can do no wrong. That's a false teaching.

"But I see that you are not one of those. Thanks for your prayer and kindness."

You're welcome.

 

[Zecryphon]

I am in total agreement with Zecryphon. If I knew you needed some hand-holding, I would've offered.

I don't think he needs hand-holding, he needs grace right now and testimony from people who have been where he is. We've caught him in a period of transition. He is growing in holiness. He is conflicted about his behavior and honestly seeking answers about it. That can't be said of others in this thread who don't see a problem with their behavior and since the Bible doesn't directly say masturbation is a sin, it must be okay.

 

[Gukkor]

You know what, I was wrong about you. I see that you are here to help and that you have well thought out posts. But floating axe only seems to mock me and other people. She is the reason non-believers look down upon Christians and see them as judgmental hypocrites that don't practice what they preach. But I see that you are not one of those. Thanks for your prayer and kindness.

I agree completely. We differ in opinion, but from what I can tell, Zecryphon is by all means a genuine and reasonable Christian. I don't really remember all of what I've said in this thread in the past, but if I've ever implied you were otherwise, Zec, my apologies. Moreover, if you really are conflicted about masturbation, Dyin2live, I would encourage you to examine both sides of the issue carefully and confer with God about it before drawing any conclusions. Once you've determined what you really believe about it, practice what you believe. Filter out the personal attacks and I think this thread is actually a nice breakdown of both perspectives. For my part, I'll not hold your hand or tell you what to believe, but I will offer guidance if you seek it from me.

 

[Floatingaxe]

practice what you believe

Hopefully you will see God's view in the matter. Thought has such power, even enough to kill us...

James 1:14-15
Temptation comes from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away. These desires give birth to sinful actions. And when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death.

 

[Zecryphon]

I agree completely. We differ in opinion, but from what I can tell, Zecryphon is by all means a genuine and reasonable Christian. I don't really remember all of what I've said in this thread in the past, but if I've ever implied you were otherwise, Zec, my apologies. Moreover, if you really are conflicted about masturbation, Dyin2live, I would encourage you to examine both sides of the issue carefully and confer with God about it before drawing any conclusions. Once you've determined what you really believe about it, practice what you believe. Filter out the personal attacks and I think this thread is actually a nice breakdown of both perspectives. For my part, I'll not hold your hand or tell you what to believe, but I will offer guidance if you seek it from me.

I don't think you've ever suggested that I was not a genuine Christian or had concern about my status as a Christian. You've probably seen how well expressing concern about a person's salvation goes from my exchanges with holo. LOL Thank you for your kind words. They mean more than you can possibly know.

 

[Breetai]

Actually a more accurate translation of the word "arsenokoites" is a heterosexual man who sleeps with prostitutes. The Greek work "arsenokoites" is a compound word. "Arsen" meaning man (as in adult male) and "koites" meaning bed ("koites" comes from the Latin word "coitus" which should properly convey the subtext of the word). "Arsenokoites" literally means "manbedder."

You've repeated exactly what I said a long time ago.

Why'd you even bother?

The first component ("arsen") has a variant form.[/QUOTE]By "variant form", do you mean the accusative?

When a man is the recipient of the action, the compound is usually formed with "arren."

Yes, that would be the accusative. Congratulations on pointing out the obvious.

Compound words formed with "arsen" indicate the man is doing the action.

Only with that word? That's new!

The word "koites" is the feminine form of the word. Therefore it is a reasonable conclusion that "arsenokoites" actually means a heterosexual man who has multiple/frequent sexual encounters.

COMPLETE BS.

The word in question is not koites, it's arsenokoites. Have you studied Greek before, or is this a copy and paste job? Just wondering. I'm not very good at Greek myself, but I do have at least some education in it. It's been awhile for me, but I can see that arsenokoites is the singular nominative form on the MALE word. Not that it matters. O ksenos, for example, is a male noun meaning "foreigner." Does that mean that all foreigners are male?

Maybe you know a bit of Spanish. "El gato" means "cat", and it's a male word. Does that mean that all cats are male?

 

[atidwel5]

Hi! I read a few of these comments at the top of the thread. A couple of people were I guess arguing about whether one should have boundaries to their life when saved. I do agree that everybody is saved in different ways because God does have different tactics to get to different people, but the Bible states that we are a PECULIAR people. That means that we are different from everybody else. Once we got saved, we were born again...we got a new life! Now, of course you are going to have the same urges and cravings as you did before (some may) but that is to test your salvation. Don't for a mintue think that once you're saved life's all honky-dory. The minute you get saved is the minute that the Satan realizes that he lost you. He's going to try everything in his power to break you back down. The "rules" and "guidelines" that somebody above claimed to not be open to are the "rules" and "guidlines" that GOD sent for us. So if you reject the word you reject GOD... IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD.

Thanks

 

[Floatingaxe]

Hi! I read a few of these comments at the top of the thread. A couple of people were I guess arguing about whether one should have boundaries to their life when saved. I do agree that everybody is saved in different ways because God does have different tactics to get to different people, but the Bible states that we are a PECULIAR people. That means that we are different from everybody else. Once we got saved, we were born again...we got a new life! Now, of course you are going to have the same urges and cravings as you did before (some may) but that is to test your salvation. Don't for a mintue think that once you're saved life's all honky-dory. The minute you get saved is the minute that the Satan realizes that he lost you. He's going to try everything in his power to break you back down. The "rules" and "guidelines" that somebody above claimed to not be open to are the "rules" and "guidlines" that GOD sent for us. So if you reject the word you reject GOD... IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD.

Thanks

Excellent comments! God bless you today! Welcome to CF!

 

[deacnblews]

Of course masturbation is not a sin. What a silly question.